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I am glad that, as a philosophical exercise, the Beast devs are willing to grudgingly concede the possibility of the Cartesian Hero.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:04
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Why would a good guy oppose a Beast? It just doesn't scan.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:08
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Good Heroes refuse to support Onyx Path in this folly.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:16
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I really don't get where this is coming from when presumably some of these people helped write the Pure book which managed to make the loving Pure, the man-eating nazi racial purity murder fanatic group, vaguely understandable and relatable while not portraying them as anything other than what they are. Good bad guys have reasons, yo. They're still bad guys.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:19
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Oh, right, and Sleeping Beauty got more sympathetic. She now became a Hero by having her nightmare invaded by a giant loving monster, fighting it and chasing it back to its Lair, where she killed it. Being a Hero is explicitly what is keeping her alive, and she's not even really planning to do anything more when she gets back to her body because all she can think about is survival in Eternal Nightmare Hell.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:21
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Mors Rattus posted:Oh, right, and Sleeping Beauty got more sympathetic. She now became a Hero by having her nightmare invaded by a giant loving monster, fighting it and chasing it back to its Lair, where she killed it. Being a Hero is explicitly what is keeping her alive, and she's not even really planning to do anything more when she gets back to her body because all she can think about is survival in Eternal Nightmare Hell. So in other words, they're devoting wordcount to a character that their Hero rules explicitly tell you not to use in the course of your game of Beast. That's an interesting approach.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:23
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The actual reason is that any sincere examination of why good people oppose Beasts reveals that Beasts are a one-dimensional, immature power fantasy about bullying on a legendary scale. It's incompatible with the premise that the Beasts are "the good guys," so it's not allowed to exist. The idea that Beasts can be fought with therapy is the most interesting thing to come out of this.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:29
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So lets get this straight: this is still a game about being a wiccan or otherkin or furry or something on the internet and getting owned and it's still going to press
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Jun 29, 2015 17:35
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Not quite. Beasts are now humans who get their human souls eaten and replaced by a horrible nightmare monster. This is something to be celebrated, apparently.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:37
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I've written off Beast at this point; when I heard about the rewrite I was optimistic, but it seems it's just a new coat of paint over the issues everyone had. Hopefully this is an anomaly and the rest of Onyx Path's stuff tends closer to Demon than Beast in quality, but I'm a lot less confident in them after everything I've seen.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:44
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Mors Rattus posted:Not quite. Beasts are now humans who get their human souls eaten and replaced by a horrible nightmare monster. This is funny, because the new Hero sidebar once again says Beasts were Born This Way.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:51
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The thing is that a Beast as portrayed in the game ought to be the end-state your character is doing everything in her power to avoid becoming: a power-mad rear end in a top hat slave to an ancient creature's vices. It should be this game's Oblivion, or Final Death. The pre-Homecoming character ought to be where the game happens. That's where there's internal conflicts and a relatable protagonist for non-sociopath players. "How am I going to brutally humiliate this normie?" isn't as interesting as "How do I hold onto my identity?"
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Jun 29, 2015 17:58
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You know what I think would be a cool direction to take Beast in? So you willingly let your soul get devoured because you were sensitive enough to pick up the vibrations of the Primordial Dream. What if the Primordial Dream was literally a singular entity with the Beasts as little feelers or movers and shakers in the realm of mortals and it was basically demanding that you feed it somehow, some way. It's a hive mind that gives its operatives leeway and free will to get poo poo done and teach lessons and stories but the Primordial Dream needs fear and understanding to survive and thrive. And when you deny the choice you made to do this or try to wrest total control away, it's not your nightmare soul that's the one going on a rampage to feed. It's the part of your soul that is your auditor and monitor from the Dream. They have sat up in their chair, put down the clip-board and taken over, confining you to the narrative of the Dream and making you do these things because you've essentially done your job poorly and they have a food quota to meet. And the auditor doesn't act subtly. It wants results, so it does things that immediate get results, which puts people on edge, which makes Heroes, who are essentially people exposed to an overwhelmingly vulgar display of power and it hammers the "WHAT YOU ARE WITNESSING IS WRONG" button in their lizard brains. It's a game about being employed by the Mother of Monsters in her Unified Nightmare Consciousness because they asked you if you wanted a job and cool powers and you said yes without looking into it too much. If you don't do your job, your supervisor forces you to do it, which makes things around you get agitated and heated. So you either do your job reasonably, subtly and satisfactorily while you have control over your ability to do it, you lose that control (and every time you lose that control, you lose it for longer and longer until your personality and control is outsourced and there's only the supervisor feeding the Consciousness) or you try to find a way to quit/be your own boss without dying or being hunted in the process.
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Jun 29, 2015 17:59
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I still don't get why the endstate of Apothesis is going to be desireable to anyone who's even remotely human. Seriously, either make beasts a positive force in the world and give them an endstate that actually helps the world. Or make them monstrous and let the antagonists have a point. You can't do both.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:03
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moths posted:The thing is that a Beast as portrayed in the game ought to be the end-state your character is doing everything in her power to avoid becoming: a power-mad rear end in a top hat slave to an ancient creature's vices. It should be this game's Oblivion, or Final Death. At the very least, confirm that Beasts don't have to buy into the whole "roast in hell, Brad" thing, and that it's possible for them to -- like vampires -- be attempting to satisfy hungers that offend them on a basic moral level. As is, all the interesting moral conflict from most nWoD material -- "what will you do to survive," "does instinct make what you're doing right," "how far will you go to escape," "does humanity deserve power" -- has been given definitive and largely unsatisfying answers.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:04
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You know, they really could have just solved many of their problems with Heroes in literally one sentence: "Good Heroes hunt Bad Beasts, while Bad Heroes hunt Good Beasts."
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Jun 29, 2015 18:16
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pkfan2004 posted:You know what I think would be a cool direction to take Beast in? So you willingly let your soul get devoured because you were sensitive enough to pick up the vibrations of the Primordial Dream. What if the Primordial Dream was literally a singular entity with the Beasts as little feelers or movers and shakers in the realm of mortals and it was basically demanding that you feed it somehow, some way. It's a hive mind that gives its operatives leeway and free will to get poo poo done and teach lessons and stories but the Primordial Dream needs fear and understanding to survive and thrive. And when you deny the choice you made to do this or try to wrest total control away, it's not your nightmare soul that's the one going on a rampage to feed. It's the part of your soul that is your auditor and monitor from the Dream. They have sat up in their chair, put down the clip-board and taken over, confining you to the narrative of the Dream and making you do these things because you've essentially done your job poorly and they have a food quota to meet. And the auditor doesn't act subtly. It wants results, so it does things that immediate get results, which puts people on edge, which makes Heroes, who are essentially people exposed to an overwhelmingly vulgar display of power and it hammers the "WHAT YOU ARE WITNESSING IS WRONG" button in their lizard brains. This is interesting. It'd also make crossovers between beasts and demons a lot better than "they both hate each other, with good reason on the part of the demons towards beasts"; demons would be either extremely sympathetic towards beasts like that, or worried as hell because they're basically the Primordial Dream's angels. Possibly both; beasts, rather than Falling, get hijacked when they try to rebel, which is both likely rather disturbing to demons and a major "watch the gently caress out" quality.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:32
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SunAndSpring posted:You know, they really could have just solved many of their problems with Heroes in literally one sentence: "Good Heroes hunt Bad Beasts, while Bad Heroes hunt Good Beasts." Since the intent appears to be for people to play Bad Beasts, this wouldn't stroke their egos by making them the unjust victims of baseless hate.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:34
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Basic beasts.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:42
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Mors Rattus posted:Oh, right, and Sleeping Beauty got more sympathetic. She now became a Hero by having her nightmare invaded by a giant loving monster, fighting it and chasing it back to its Lair, where she killed it. Being a Hero is explicitly what is keeping her alive, and she's not even really planning to do anything more when she gets back to her body because all she can think about is survival in Eternal Nightmare Hell. How does anyone on God's green earth write this character and think 'this is the bad guy'? This is the kind of character people want to play! Sympathetic goal, horror scenario, probably some neat powers and weird ethereal struggles, that's all stuff people want, isn't it?
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Jun 29, 2015 18:47
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Roland Jones posted:This is interesting. It'd also make crossovers between beasts and demons a lot better than "they both hate each other, with good reason on the part of the demons towards beasts"; demons would be either extremely sympathetic towards beasts like that, or worried as hell because they're basically the Primordial Dream's angels. Possibly both; beasts, rather than Falling, get hijacked when they try to rebel, which is both likely rather disturbing to demons and a major "watch the gently caress out" quality. E: also there's some Mummy influence in there too. Vox Valentine fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 18:49
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Night10194 posted:How does anyone on God's green earth write this character and think 'this is the bad guy'? This is the kind of character people want to play! Sympathetic goal, horror scenario, probably some neat powers and weird ethereal struggles, that's all stuff people want, isn't it? The arguments I've seen so far for why Melanie is awful sum up to "she must have known that the Beast's attempt to rip apart her dream flesh wouldn't actually cause permanent physical damage to her, and that when she chased down the monster and killed it she was actually killing a person." Even ignoring the fact that Heroes don't perceive Beasts as humans, but as monsters masquerading in flesh, the idea that self-defense is evil when Heroes are doing it but good when it's Beasts protecting themselves is really one of my main issues with this game. It's a ridiculous double standard that no one seems willing to admit or address.
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Jun 29, 2015 18:59
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quote:Hi, Matt here. I know I haven't said much on the Kickstarter since it started, I've been hard at work revising Beast. Some sections - most, really - haven't taken much. I was mostly happy with the game as written, but as Rich and I have said, it became clear once the text went up that my intent didn't come through, and some sections needed some further work.
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Jun 29, 2015 20:06
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His intent was plenty clear: lovely revenge fantasy simulator with gross, weird poo poo in it.
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Jun 29, 2015 20:09
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SunAndSpring posted:You know, they really could have just solved many of their problems with Heroes in literally one sentence: "Good Heroes hunt Bad Beasts, while Bad Heroes hunt Good Beasts." Poltergrift posted:Even ignoring the fact that Heroes don't perceive Beasts as humans, but as monsters masquerading in flesh
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Jun 29, 2015 20:48
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Zereth posted:... Isn't that perception completely accurate? Poor wording -- I meant that they don't perceive beasts as sentient people, but as big brainless horned gribblies wearing human disguises. Which, y'know, the only incorrect part is "brainless." A Beast has moral value on some level, but they don't have the deontological protection of the innocent; if killing them is the best way to prevent widespread harm that is equal to or greater than the harm that they cause by existing, then that's the thing that we are morally obligated to do.
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Jun 29, 2015 20:52
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Kant: The Categorical Imperativing.
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Jun 29, 2015 21:32
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Thaddeus Did Nothing Wrong.
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Jun 29, 2015 22:12
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Galt: The Migration.
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Jun 29, 2015 22:46
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I really pity the people who backed the Kickstarter but haven't spoiled themselves on the book or on any related material. That said, I'm definitely looking forward to potential reaction threads 
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Jun 29, 2015 23:21
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Poltergrift posted:Poor wording -- I meant that they don't perceive beasts as sentient people, but as big brainless horned gribblies wearing human disguises. The hypocrisy of Beast, now, is that the rules-as-written require Heroes to be philosophical zombies in order to justify the Beasts as protagonists, yet stated moral failing of Heroes is that they consider BEASTS to be philosophical zombies. This goes hand-in-hand with the submission that Heroes are an allegory against those that refuse to grow, change, and evolve... but I've yet to see a Beast presented that isn't a simple proceduralist repeating the same basic system of abuse to 'teach' the same 'lesson' over & over again. The continued incongruity of the central story is showing that the piecemeal revision process is not fixing Beast: the Primordial. A puerile revenge fantasy should be more honest to the reader and present the game as a tool for expressing these ideas upfront, rather than hiding behind baroque language and portraying itself as the 'hero of progress'.
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Jun 29, 2015 23:22
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It's really hard to read because Kickstarter's layout is terrible, but when you subtract the goal from the amount of money raised, I think this has been one of OP's least profitable Kickstarters. I know the various Vampire supplement Kickstarters have made a lot less, but it's making less than half of what Demon raised.
Kavak fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 23:38
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Cabbit posted:Kant: The Categorical Imperativing. I'd play a game about philosophers fighting each other using their philosophies as super-powers. User: Karl Marx Stand: Das Kapital
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Jun 29, 2015 23:54
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MonsieurChoc posted:I'd play a game about philosophers fighting each other using their philosophies as super-powers. If only there was a system other than FATE that could emulate JoJo in its full and absolute glory.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:03
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Xelkelvos posted:If only there was a system other than FATE that could emulate JoJo in its full and absolute glory. Godlike/Wild Talents? Do the Stands as really weird powers bought with limited points.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:03
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MonsieurChoc posted:I'd play a game about philosophers fighting each other using their philosophies as super-powers. Bloop
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Jun 30, 2015 00:12
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Kavak posted:It's really hard to read because Kickstarter's layout is terrible, but when you subtract the goal from the amount of money raised, I think this has been one of OP's least profitable Kickstarters. I know the various Vampire supplement Kickstarters have made a lot less, but it's making less than half of what Demon raised. I think I see the math you're performing and it checks out, but I'm not necessarily sure that subtracting the initial goal from the final take is an accurate estimate of overall profitability. Setting aside the fact that Demon's initial goal was $10k less than Beast's, it depends on how many backers have gone for which reward, as the reward tiers that ship physical books bleed some of that take to fulfill. If I had to guess, I'd peg Beast as having performed around on par with Mummy, looking like it's going to end significantly behind Demon but not in a glaringly obvious, panic-inducing way. But gently caress, take my guess with an enormous grain of salt. Man. Saying this as a usual detractor of Mummy: the Curse, it still didn't deserve to place somewhere next to Beast.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:34
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6nI1v7mwwA
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Jun 30, 2015 00:37
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MonsieurChoc posted:I'd play a game about philosophers fighting each other using their philosophies as super-powers. Since I got sniped on Existentialist Comics, I will say that Albert Camus's stand, The Stranger, would probably end up one of the particularly weird ones like Super Fly. Jojo owns. Geist 2e should use Jojo in its inspirations, or at least keep Persona 3 because Persona is more or less "how do we do Jojo, only slightly less insane?"
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Jun 30, 2015 00:39
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Daeren posted:Since I got sniped on Existentialist Comics, I will say that Albert Camus's stand, The Stranger, would probably end up one of the particularly weird ones like Super Fly. Give bonus xp if your Geist has a name that's a reference to a song or musical artist.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:41
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