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Dapper_Swindler posted:The problem was they didnt show dick of the vox populi and then they kinda show them loving up the city. if the vox had acted like they were shown in the one demo. I would have agreed with the games middle ground message. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUFkHjMax4I The Vox were a bunch of underclass who were angry at the system and, liberated, went nutsy violent against that system. It's not a huge surprise, the mafia were also typically a load of immigrants and other looked-down-upon people who acquired wealth by operating outside the law of the system that was set against them. What made people mad is Fitzroy's sudden freakout that comes down to, "I watched you die, but now you're here alive, so I need to kill you." It seemed reductive for a character who was made to seem as intelligent as she was. The original plan was for the Vox to have no real system of authority after Fitzroy and fall apart, but they didn't have time to produce all that. DLC came up with a new background where the Lutece twins work with Fitzroy to snap Elizabeth's innocent spirit so that she is mentally prepared to face Comstock. Fitzroy is disappointed that she is to be used as the sacrifice, but agrees to it because she believes in overthrowing Comstock even if she doesn't live to see the victory.
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Jun 29, 2015 23:47
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Adventure Pigeon posted:That makes sense. Does it only work when it's generally accepted by society that something is wrong, the person just chooses to try to rationalize or ignore it? Since you say this is your field of study, how do you feel about the anti-multiculturalism backlash in Britain? It seemed like a case where everyone generally accepted that multiculturalism was a good thing, but then the child abuse scandals hit and suddenly a lot of people weren't so sure. People who felt uncomfortable initially became outright hostile. I tend to agree with Trevor Phillips, for that matter, though I don't claim to have a deep understanding of the issue.
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Jun 29, 2015 23:49
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Obdicut posted:poo poo, yeah. The first time I hit someone with the hook-grapple thing and just buried it in their face, I was like, "I'm the good guy?" i also wondered why I wasn't just drenched in blood. Be really cool if No Man's Sky would be that game but that just looks like "explore procedurally generated space for its own sake", which is cool, but man, I need story and characters to get me in.  ToxicAcne posted:. The Bioshock games have an overarcing moral of "extremism leads to ruin, no matter what ideal you hold up" and they did a horrible job getting it across in Infinite, partially because the people we're supposed to identify with, Booker and Elizabeth, are such a-holes. Bioshock 1 and Bioshock 2 collectively pull this message off a lot better because they portray both extremes well and also have some really great sympathetic characters in the middle. 2 in particular I think was the best at this. You had Eleanor as the emotional heart of the story and Sinclair as one of the most fun sidekick/support guys I can remember having in a game. Also, Minerva's Den owned.
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Jun 29, 2015 23:49
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VJeff posted:. Also, Minerva's Den owned. Incidentally, Minerva's Den's lead designer was the very same lead designer of Gone Home. One of the big aspects of the gamergate boogeymen is that "they" aren't real gamers, don't like games, and aren't involved with games. This isn't actually true.
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Jun 29, 2015 23:55
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VJeff posted:Be really cool if No Man's Sky would be that game but that just looks like "explore procedurally generated space for its own sake", which is cool, but man, I need story and characters to get me in. yeah. infinite felt like it was patched and sewn together out of several different ideas and themes. 1 works because rapture, ryan and rest were interesting as heck. 2 was a smaller story but it was well crafted and all the characters were interesting. burial at sea was alright and did a interesting tie 1. also seeing suchong get wrecked was great. he was probably the biggest piece of poo poo in rapture next to ryan.
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Jun 29, 2015 23:55
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Neurolimal posted:Incidentally, Minerva's Den's lead designer was the very same lead designer of Gone Home. This is a huge part of why I was so disappointed with Gone Home, honestly. Minerva's Den is one of my favorite pieces of narrative in any game and Gone Home is such a weak follow-up to that on pretty much all aspects. Like, I literally couldn't believe the guys who came up with C.M. Porter and the Thinker made such unlikable, boring characters in their first original work.
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Jun 29, 2015 23:57
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THC posted:White British people are not exactly saints when it comes to child abuse so it's really funny to me when people try to claim multiculturalism backlash in Britain is justified because of "child abuse scandals" I don't claim it was justified. I claim it gave people who were already against it something to rally around and hurt the overall movement. Even given my ignorance of Britain, I'd still say it justifies the view that political sensitivity shouldn't suppress discussion or law enforcement for that matter, but that's a bit different than "send the foreigners home"
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Jun 29, 2015 23:57
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Neurolimal posted:Incidentally, Minerva's Den's lead designer was the very same lead designer of Gone Home. yeah but thats also why gone home was actualy interesting expirence and why sunset was awlful peice of poo poo. It had actual comptent game designers behind it. not pretentious hipsters look to vomit their "ideals"
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Jun 29, 2015 23:57
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Mormon Star Wars posted:Apparently not, since Jack Thompson is being paraded around as "Based Dad" because he's publically speaking up in favor of 'gamergate.' more on this: https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/gamergate-supports-jack-thompson
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Jun 29, 2015 23:59
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Neurolimal posted:Incidentally, Minerva's Den's lead designer was the very same lead designer of Gone Home. I don't think any critic of Gone Home feels that the people who made it have no understanding of game design. A lot of people praised the Shenmue-like ability to open up everything and play and look at every object, and from really early on they were emphasizing the effort they put into object modeling and period appropriate pieces. People who were following the company's updates on the game knew what they were getting into, generally; the only question was whether all the supernatural buildup would lead to a jumpscare or not. What resulted in a bunch of Gone Home backlash was people saying that the game was Most Certainly Something but refusing to say what thing was because 'Spoilers!' That whole "wow you should play this but I can't tell you anything because it won't resonate with you unless you go in totally blind" bullshit from critics and blogs led to people who wouldn't want to play this game buying a game blind that they weren't happy with. That they would have passed on if someone had told them anything. The Stanley Parable had the same thing going on, where people seemed to be taking an oath of silence to not say what it was in order to 'preserve the experience', and you had to go to YouTube to see that oh, this is an interactive satire of video game design tropes.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:07
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Adventure Pigeon posted:That makes sense. Does it only work when it's generally accepted by society that something is wrong, the person just chooses to try to rationalize or ignore it? Since you say this is your field of study, how do you feel about the anti-multiculturalism backlash in Britain? It seemed like a case where everyone generally accepted that multiculturalism was a good thing, but then the child abuse scandals hit and suddenly a lot of people weren't so sure. People who felt uncomfortable initially became outright hostile. I tend to agree with Trevor Phillips, for that matter, though I don't claim to have a deep understanding of the issue. If the effect of what was done was to reduce talk about racial disparity, that's the exact opposite of what you want to have happen. You want people to talk about why there are racial disparities, which involves acknowledging them. I don't know enough about the particulars in Britain to really comment. I don't get why the child abuse stuff would change anyone's minds, since that was a failure of policing and has nothing to do with much of anything else, especially since the police also missed a lot of white people abusing children too. quote:I think I was misunderstood here. I agree it's possible. What I said was that most of us aren't in a position to have more influence than personal interactions. The fact that those can influence the public at large, I don't disagree with. Yeah, what I'm saying is that speaking up in class, in clubs, in that small social space is really useful and really important and can snowball. One thing we saw with gay people was gay people standing up for themselves in public, and that bravery being rewarded by people standing up for them too. quote:
yeah, exactly. You don't 'win' by convincing one person at a time. However, I still think you're focusing a bit too much on tone, or too simplistically. If coming off like an rear end in a top hat was really a big negative, then the GOP wouldn't have any political power whatsoever. It's more complicated than that. Sadly, the worst thing to look is ridiculous, rather than assholish, to look impotent, weak, or foolish. But now we are really, really far afield. In general, yes, presenting an argument that will sway or appeal to bystanders is more important than convincing the person you're 'arguing' with, except in a real one-on-one conversation. Mostly, though, it's not even about argument, but about saying "Socially, this is not acceptable". It actually takes a surprisingly small amount of push-back to undermine casual sexism and racism. A lot of people who let it slide are actually not happy with it and are happy when someone tells someone who's cracking sexist jokes to shut the hell up. VJeff posted:Be really cool if No Man's Sky would be that game but that just looks like "explore procedurally generated space for its own sake", which is cool, but man, I need story and characters to get me in. Basically, Marathon in space but instead of shooting the bugs you're trying to understand their language or society or something would be awesome.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:10
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Craptacular! posted:I don't think any critic of Gone Home feels that the people who made it have no understanding of game design. You mean except the people who said it was a walking simulator, not a game?
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Jun 30, 2015 00:14
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CrazyLittle posted:more on this: https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/gamergate-supports-jack-thompson lol this guy is so ridiculously disingenuous, it almost physically hurts to read any of his bullshit. Obdicut posted:Basically, Marathon in space but instead of shooting the bugs you're trying to understand their language or society or something would be awesome. Apparently Bungie's contract with Activision had a clause about some money going towards a new Marathon, but, lol, Bungie and story/lore haven't been the best of friends lately.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:19
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Obdicut posted:If the effect of what was done was to reduce talk about racial disparity, that's the exact opposite of what you want to have happen. You want people to talk about why there are racial disparities, which involves acknowledging them. I don't know enough about the particulars in Britain to really comment. I don't get why the child abuse stuff would change anyone's minds, since that was a failure of policing and has nothing to do with much of anything else, especially since the police also missed a lot of white people abusing children too. My understanding is the child abuse was known, but not investigated because police and social workers were afraid of being labeled as racists. When it finally exploded, the tabloids picked it up and had a field day, using it as an example of where multiculturalism had failed. It may not have caused the resentment with how things were being handled, but it was useful to the far right. There were a lot of class issues too, as it occurred in poor areas, but those weren't focused on as much by the media.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:21
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VJeff posted:lol this guy is so ridiculously disingenuous, it almost physically hurts to read any of his bullshit. Who is he and why do people care about what he writes?
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Jun 30, 2015 00:22
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VJeff posted:lol this guy is so ridiculously disingenuous, it almost physically hurts to read any of his bullshit. If nothing else, you can take away from those tweets that Fat Romero and Discount Kane interviewed Jack Thompson to make Jack look good for disagreeing with Anita. Of course that's not the funniest part of the Sarkeesian Effect, where they wasted project funds to buy Aurini a car for personal (not business) use and then had a public lover's spat all over twitter before breaking up and later making up.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:23
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Here is another video people should watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLNhPMQnWu4 Protip: This applies to both sides.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:24
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Unfunny Poster posted:Who is he and why do people care about what he writes? Search me! CrazyLittle posted:If nothing else, you can take away from those tweets that Fat Romero and Discount Kane interviewed Jack Thompson to make Jack look good for disagreeing with Anita. Of course that's not the funniest part of the Sarkeesian Effect, where they wasted project funds to buy Aurini a car for personal (not business) use and then had a public lover's spat all over twitter before breaking up and later making up. Yeah, even by Gamergate standards, those Sarkeesian Effect guys are loving losers. The drama around their stupid movie is completely asinine. Goes to show you that idiots will give their money to anything as long as it says "Hey the thing you don't like is bad!", I guess.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:24
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Adventure Pigeon posted:My understanding is the child abuse was known, but not investigated because police and social workers were afraid of being labeled as racists. When it finally exploded, the tabloids picked it up and had a field day, using it as an example of where multiculturalism had failed. It may not have caused the resentment with how things were being handled, but it was useful to the far right. There were a lot of class issues too, as it occurred in poor areas, but those weren't focused on as much by the media. Okay, this really seems like less of a problem with racism being socially unacceptable and more with police just loving up, in the same way they hosed up the Savile investigation and a lot of other investigations of white people. It doesn't seem like it's really that relevant to what we were talking about. VJeff posted:Apparently Bungie's contract with Activision had a clause about some money going towards a new Marathon, but, lol, Bungie and story/lore haven't been the best of friends lately. If we do get a new one I will bet you many dollars it has more shooting and less hosed up AIs leaving cryptic messages on terminals for you.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:25
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Unfunny Poster posted:Who is he and why do people care about what he writes? Twitter user "a man in black": basically bizzarro Cardboard Box A, just collates and storifies collections of tweets where GG acts lovely. Skip his editorializing and just see the collected tweets. Jack Thompson: disgraced, disbarred US attorney who tried to get video games banned by congress, now referred to as "based dad" by GG. Davis Aurini: Discount Kane, one of the two "producers" of the Anti-Anita documentary kickstarter "The Sarkeesian Effect", and unironic owner of toy skulls, un-smoked cigars, and un-sipped whiskey Jorden Owen: Fat Romero, the battered-spouse side of "The Sarkeesian Effect".
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Jun 30, 2015 00:29
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VJeff posted:Search me! I meant this "a man in black" guy, they keep popping up and I have no clue what claim to fame they has other than angrily writing about GamerGate and people related to it.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:29
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computer parts posted:You mean except the people who said it was a walking simulator, not a game? Being upset that there is zero challenge element whatsoever doesn't mean the people behind it don't know how to use the tech they're using. Stuff like Sunset's basic geometry straining systems harder than Witcher III is a sign of people who have no background in the industry trying to do something they're not used to. The criticism of Gone Home basically comes down to knowing full well that they're invoking all sorts of horror tropes (the red hair dye in the bathtub is a shoutout to Eternal Darkness) without any significantly scary moments beyond a lightbulb burning out, without any paranoia effects like bleeding walls or things moving while your back was turned, etc. It was just endless foreboding, pushing all your buttons, and not giving you any cathartic payoff for all that horror trope invoking that went on for the past hour. Also, people who like to think they'll be cool if they're homophobic like to rage about the whole thing being a tale of gay tolerance. Which is why on 4chan it's called "Gone Homo." Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Jun 30, 2015 |
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Jun 30, 2015 00:30
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computer parts posted:You mean except the people who said it was a walking simulator, not a game? Makers of successful walking sims know a drat bit more about design and keeping an audience than anything with an emphasis on shooty mans. That wisdom undoubtedly is lost on some. Vanishing of Ethan Carter for example. Unfunny Poster posted:I meant this "a man in black" guy, they keep popping up and I have no clue what claim to fame they has other than angrily writing about GamerGate and people related to it. He stared too long into the abyss. InsanityIsCrazy fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Jun 30, 2015 |
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Jun 30, 2015 00:32
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Craptacular! posted:Being upset that there is zero challenge element whatsoever doesn't mean the people behind it don't know how to use the tech they're using. Stuff like Sunset's basic geometry straining systems harder than Witcher III is a sign of people who have no background in the industry trying to do something they're not used to. So basically, horror blue balls?
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Jun 30, 2015 00:34
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Obdicut posted:If we do get a new one I will bet you many dollars it has more shooting and less hosed up AIs leaving cryptic messages on terminals for you. Yeah, Destiny needed way more of the latter and way less of the former too. Unfunny Poster posted:I meant this "a man in black" guy, they keep popping up and I have no clue what claim to fame they has other than angrily writing about GamerGate and people related to it. That's what I meant - he's just some loser who constantly writes disingenuous poo poo about GG, like even in that article, you can see him reportedly declaring "GG supports Jack Thompson!" when most of the tweets are just to the effect of "Wow, when even THIS loser is calling you out on being a hypocrite." All of his tweets and stuff he's written that I've seen is like that. I dunno why anybody pays attention to him or gives him the time of day.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:34
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Davis Aurini looks like Kane from Command and Conquer except even more creepy.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:35
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Craptacular! posted:Being upset that there is zero challenge element whatsoever doesn't mean the people behind it don't know how to use the tech they're using. Stuff like Sunset's basic geometry straining systems harder than Witcher III is a sign of people who have no background in the industry trying to do something they're not used to. Hah, I forgot they had a literal ouija board and pentagram as a set piece.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:35
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Unfunny Poster posted:So basically, horror blue balls? I edited this in the last post, but will amend it down here because goddamn this thread moves fast: I really can't stress enough how much playing Eternal Darkness can change what you expect to be set up for in Gone Home. ED sets up it's story with a female protagonist exploring her grandfather's mansion, and then evolves into a loving mindfuck Cthulu tale. Everything about their design direction suggests influences from that game, and I think the bathtub scene is the exclamation point on it.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:36
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Dapper Dan posted:The problem is that violence is comfortable. Violence is what people used to. I recently played the 'Witcher 3' and I realized I would KILL for a game that is just fantasy CSI with you going around and solving mysteries things like that. You'd get powers and abilities to do more complicated investigative tasks, and when you leveled up you could level tracking, magical forensics and poo poo like that. You wouldn't need an ounce of violence and it would have as much game play and content as any game with violence. You'd just send the Fantasy Swat Team or detectives in after you were done. A lot of indie games have done an approach to non-violence, but we are talking AAA with as much interactivity as you have with violence. So no Tell Tale games or simply choosing dialogue. Violence might be comfortable for the people that generally Identify as 'Gamers' and some of the game developers that are very used to making shooters and stuff these days, but part of the argument coming from people like Sarkeesian is that games, AAA ones anyway, will remain limited in their appeal (especially to women) so long as they remain so firmly wedded to violence. Again, I should mention that this carries questionable assumptions that violence is intrinsically masculine, but I'd also argue you don't need to be a woman to be turned off by violent videogames. But this is one of the reasons why I find myself weary about people quick to poo poo on the latest 'Walking simulator' or what have you, because the truth is these games do have appeal, and often them and other games that are seen as being not having enough gameplay or otherwise being too 'Casual' (ie Adventure games, Puzzle games, hidden object games, platformers to some degree) turn out to be the games that appeal to women the most. quote:What do you replace it with? My fantasy CSI example serves well. As do investigative games, which there needs to be more of. There's not really anything with the sense of unraveling a mystery except for David Cage (gently caress no) and old school adventure games. This gets even more complicated when you want to remove violence completely with no one getting hurt. How do you make a drama in a videogame with the exact same amount of interactivity you do with a violent game? Like, Glen-Garry Glen-Ross without making it all boring mini-games or dialogue trees. This is a question no one has really answered yet because it is extremely difficult to do. Removing violence yet keeping the same amount of interactivity (as well as fun. If you want to do this mainstream and have mainstream success, they really do have to be this way) as a violent game is just one of those things the medium either can't tackle at the moment, people are too afraid to or they simply just don't know how. And this is where Campster's video is probably most relevant, I like the way he puts it: 'its way easier to make a game where you pummel a man to death than one where you shake his hand and get to know him', maybe games just aren't really built to tell a story like 12 angry men (or most of the things David Cage wants to do) and still have lots of interactivity and skillful mechanics. Despite that though I think you're being a bit unimaginative here, there's a lot of games I like to play that I think have fun, deep, skill based mechanics, lots of interactivity and pretty much no violence, think Simcity, Rollercoaster Tycoon, or the Sims. Interestingly those sorts of Games seem to do very well reaching across both Genders in their appeal. As well as that, why discount things like old school adventure games? I maintain that some of the most narratively and artistically interesting games ever made came from the 90s adventure game boon, and I don't just mean stuff like Grim Fandango and Monkey Island I mean seriously avant-garde stuff like Bad Day on the Midway. You also got stuff like Starship Titanic that saw some of the best transitions of a well regarded author to videogames. Most stuff wasn't all that good mind you, and the old adventure games tended to be forgotten when people were trying to figure out whether games are art or whether a game can have a good narrative, but adventure games of a sort have been having a slow revival for years, and they don't usually make violence integral to the game.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:38
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VJeff posted:That's what I meant - he's just some loser who constantly writes disingenuous poo poo about GG, like even in that article, you can see him reportedly declaring "GG supports Jack Thompson!" when most of the tweets are just to the effect of "Wow, when even THIS loser is calling you out on being a hypocrite." All of his tweets and stuff he's written that I've seen is like that. I dunno why anybody pays attention to him or gives him the time of day. Even without man-in-black's editorializing, the tweets really do show that GG has no cognitive dissonance over convenient right wing neoconservative allies like Breitbart/Milo Yiannopolis, Christina Sommers, Jack Thompson and actual neonazi white supremacists like weev, hotwheels and /pol. I mean really, "based dad?" Come on. 
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Jun 30, 2015 00:40
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khwarezm posted:Violence might be comfortable for the people that generally Identify as 'Gamers' and some of the game developers that are very used to making shooters and stuff these days, but part of the argument coming from people like Sarkeesian is that games, AAA ones anyway, will remain limited in their appeal (especially to women) so long as they remain so firmly wedded to violence. Again, I should mention that this carries questionable assumptions that violence is intrinsically masculine, but I'd also argue you don't need to be a woman to be turned off by violent videogames. Thaks to Steam, Ive encountered a nice collection of new style adventure games. Anything by Wadjet Eye is incredible for a classic pixel style point and click, Darkness Within series for horror exploration, and Dream for experimental puzzle solving. Im currently takin my time with The Old City: Leviathan, and theres supposed to be a sequel to Mountains of Madness with an exploraton feel. I think were seeing a nice resurgence of non combat material thats actually good.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:45
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Isn't hotwheels just the guy who runs 8chan, and has a crippling bone disease that led to him believing in eugenics?
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Jun 30, 2015 00:45
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The Droid posted:Isn't hotwheels just the guy who runs 8chan, and has a crippling bone disease that led to him believing in eugenics? This amuses me far more than it should. "I SHOULD NOT BE". He was also harassed mercilessly by wizardchan for losing his virginity.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:49
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Who is wheev?
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Jun 30, 2015 00:49
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CrazyLittle posted:Even without man-in-black's editorializing, the tweets really do show that GG has no cognitive dissonance over convenient right wing neoconservative allies like Breitbart/Milo Yiannopolis, Christina Sommers, Jack Thompson and actual neonazi white supremacists like weev, hotwheels and /pol. I mean really, "based dad?" Come on. "He has the legal power to do something, so, yes."  No, he kinda doesn't.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:50
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VJeff posted:"He has the legal power to do something, so, yes." Didn't he actually get disbarred thanks to all his past bullshit?
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Jun 30, 2015 00:53
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Unfunny Poster posted:Who is wheev? This guy. Supposedly he was on the ground floor of the notorious internet troll group GNAA.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:55
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Zerilan posted:Didn't he actually get disbarred thanks to all his past bullshit? He was kicked out of the Great State of Alabama because of how increasingly dumb his attempts to blame a kid shooting a cop were. edit: He thought it was a good idea to bypass the orders of the judge and make his case in a really stupid op/ed in a local paper in rural Alabama.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:56
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Zerilan posted:Didn't he actually get disbarred thanks to all his past bullshit? Yes, yes he did. So far as I know, he can't practice law in the US at all anymore.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:57
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Whats bad about Sommers? Genuinely curious as I thought she was a feminist.
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Jun 30, 2015 00:59
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