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Popular Thug Drink posted:So the real problem wasn't that she was being harassed, but that the harassment was 'censored' by privately owned websites? It was no longer even the "harassment" that was being deleted, but anything and everything involving it and surrounding issues. Even after Reddit tried to scrub all the Zoe poo poo, they were still nuking threads about gaming journalism, conflicts of interest, and other bullshit that was only tangentially related to the situation. It was an extremely ham-fisted attempt to shame their collective communities into submission through deletion and mainstream articles that blew up in their faces big time.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:30
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Popular Thug Drink posted:So then why wasn't gamergate a whole thing before the Zoe Post? Reclaim Mass Effect, The modding of Sim City to make it offline, the numerous campagins to get EA to win worst company, and the thousands of 4chan youtube videos mocking Kotaku and co (who than made GG ones) do predate it. All the Zoe post did was provide a spark.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:31
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NutritiousSnack posted:The pope hat was a major meme, "Reclaim Mass Effect" was a major social media movement, and so was EA continued victories of worst company. You're pointing out grievances at developers, not media outlets. People didn't say "I'm mad at Mass Effect because it got good reviews and it was bad", it was "I'm mad at Mass Effect because it has a poo poo ending and it's Bioware's fault".
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Jun 30, 2015 07:31
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natetimm posted:It was no longer even the "harassment" that was being deleted, but anything and everything involving it and surrounding issues. Even after Reddit tried to scrub all the Zoe poo poo, they were still nuking threads about gaming journalism, conflicts of interest, and other bullshit that was only tangentially related to the situation. It was an extremely ham-fisted attempt to shame their collective communities into submission through deletion and mainstream articles that blew up in their faces big time. Most websites frown upon their services being used as a platform to get involved in someone else's nasty breakup, especially when the traffic is so huge as to attract media attention. I don't think it's shameful at all to discourage people from harassing a woman, nor is it shameful to restrict extremely personal and damaging allegations made without any proof against an otherwise obscure person. Airing dirty laundry like that generally is something that people think is socially unacceptable. NutritiousSnack posted:Reclaim Mass Effect, The modding of Sim City to make it offline, the numerous campagins to get EA to win worst company, and the thousands of 4chan youtube videos mocking Kotaku and co (who than made GG ones) do predate it. All the Zoe post did was provide a spark. Why was that the spark? I thought gamers were mad about gaming journalism, not if a random woman cheated on her boyfriend and broke his heart.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:32
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computer parts posted:You're pointing out grievances at developers, not media outlets. Gaming journos calling gamers entitled babies for not liking ME3's ending. Gaming journos Calling gamers entitled babies for wanting a Demon Souls port to PC. Gaming journos calling gamers idiots for thinking Sim City could be run offline, then it got modded the day after release to do so. Yes, these were bad publisher and dev decisions, but the decision for the journos was to take pot shots at their audience they already decided they hated a long time ago.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:33
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NutritiousSnack posted:Gamer Gate actually started with Doritos Pope and dozen other things that built animosity between gaming sites and gamers. Rab Florence would be glad to know that hundreds of gamers rallied behind him with a hashtag campaign when he got fired from Eurogamer for the article that started the Doritos Pope. Shame it did not really happen. Also "reclaim Mass Effect" was absolutely pathetic when viewed from outside, I recall a lot of people with no or just a passing interest in games being absolutely horrified at the sight of an idiot mob demanding to change an ending to a game just because they did not like it. fatherboxx fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Jun 30, 2015 |
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Jun 30, 2015 07:34
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Popular Thug Drink posted:So you're saying it was just a coincidence that this whole controversy exploded at the same time that these people were very concerned with Quinn's interaction with the exact subject of their anger? It brought to light a bunch of the click-bait games industry her game was the media darling of the month and it was poo poo. Also a social justice dude called out his abuser and many self-proclaimed feminist/sjws immediately sided against him which is pretty hosed up imo.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:34
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Most websites frown upon their services being used as a platform to get involved in someone else's nasty breakup, especially when the traffic is so huge as to attract media attention. He just pointed out that things not directly related to the breakup expose were deleted as well due to their hamfisted attempts at stopping all discussion of it.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:34
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Most websites frown upon their services being used as a platform to get involved in someone else's nasty breakup, especially when the traffic is so huge as to attract media attention. Like I said, threads that weren't even about her were getting deleted as well. The situation brought to light a lot of the comfy sort of cronyism that had been rampant in the indie scene for a long time but only a few people cared about it. The mass deletions caused a lot of people to wonder what was up, and those few people who had been keeping track of stuff that wasn't even relevant to Quinn tried to share it and got banned or deleted as well.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:35
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computer parts posted:You're pointing out grievances at developers, not media outlets. They got mad at media outlets too, when they responded to the controversy with several articles bashing "entitled gamers who can't appreciate art." Also, a number of people wondered why almost none of the reviews mentioned the ending. Look up the Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread in the archives if you want an idea of how crazy things got back then.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:35
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INH5 posted:They got mad at media outlets too, when they responded to the controversy with several articles bashing "entitled gamers who can't appreciate art." Also, a number of people wondered why almost none of the reviews mentioned the ending. Look up the Mass Effect 3 Spoiler thread in the archives if you want an idea of how crazy things got back then. I'm well aware of the ME3 thread and I'm well aware that it more or less died out once Bioware said that they'd do an "addition" to the ending.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:36
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natetimm posted:Like I said, threads that weren't even about her were getting deleted as well. The situation brought to light a lot of the comfy sort of cronyism that had been rampant in the indie scene for a long time but only a few people cared about it. The mass deletions caused a lot of people to wonder what was up, and those few people who had been keeping track of stuff that wasn't even relevant to Quinn tried to share it and got banned or deleted as well. My first reaction wouldn't be to assume some kind of cronyist coverup. My first reaction would be that the mods were attempting to throw some water on an otherwise rampaging attempt to harass a woman for little to no reason. This also sounds like a retroactive justification to me, to inject some nobility into an otherwise shameful cause.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:37
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INH5 posted:They got mad at media outlets too, when they responded to the controversy with several articles bashing "entitled gamers who can't appreciate art." Also, a number of people wondered why almost none of the reviews mentioned the ending. Look up the Mass Effect 3 Spoiler thread in the archives if you want an idea of how crazy things got back then. No one mentioned the ending because most journalists don't obsess over games the creepy way fans do. When you're on the review grind lackluster endings are the norm. There are a few journalists who don't actually play games outside of work. Just different tastes. Now maybe these people shouldn't be doing that job, but anyone who works in the industry faces that fatigue at some point. No way past it.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:37
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fatherboxx posted:Rab Florence would be glad to know that hundreds of gamers rallied behind him with a hashtag campaign when he got fired from Eurogamer for the article that started the Doritos Pope. Kinda of like I just stated this took years of animosity of build up and was no single event.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:38
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NutritiousSnack posted:The key is that has nothing to do with what anyone said. The argument they made was his unprofessional behavior cost him a job opportunity and that somehow being lined to GamerGate. Being well known for being unable to break a game disk with your hands and going on a rant against AAA publishers and then hoping to a job from one, while spewing poo poo on twitter to possibly remind them of this is going to hurt employment opportunities . Ranting against AAA games and pubs and going "this is why indies are great" as part of a games presentation seems to be the most milquetoast thing ever though, would devs and pubs even care about that? I'm actually curious, maybe someone else can chime in. Quinn offers further explanation however: http://ohdeargodbees.tumblr.com/post/119343938684/risky-business "This solidarity, courage, and compassion was rewarded with a mob harassing his future employer, who was our light at the end of the tunnel since it was no longer safe to go home. The employer stood behind us. They saw the horde for what it was. But it didn’t stop there. Studios he never worked at got brigaded. Then his employer’s employer got brigaded, and upped the pressure. One of the things that makes mob harassment so insidious is how it attacks from every possible angle, and some you didn’t even think of. All it takes in any system is one point of failure, one person to make the wrong decision, one person to not understand what’s going on, one person to be a coward." Now she's obviously going to think the best of him, especially after talking about his help with recording the IRC channels and exposing the early Quinnspiracy effort and such, but chan raids can be incredibly tenacious as we've seen, and there appears to be a concious and continual effort on the part of gamergate sympathizers to minimize the actions of the raiders and maximize the blame on the individual's own "unforced errors" if you will. 
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Jun 30, 2015 07:38
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computer parts posted:I'm well aware of the ME3 thread and I'm well aware that it more or less died out once Bioware said that they'd do an "addition" to the ending. It went on for years making fun and then further critiquing the ending and the coverage to it actually. And we're talking about the press once again.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:39
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Popular Thug Drink posted:My first reaction wouldn't be to assume some kind of cronyist coverup. My first reaction would be that the mods were attempting to throw some water on an otherwise rampaging attempt to harass a woman for little to no reason. Perhaps if so many journalists and inde developers hadn't been utter shits on social media and in their articles for such a long time, there wouldn't have been such a visceral reaction when there was blood in the water. It really wasn't about Zoe, she was just the convenient reason for groups of people that had long aligned themselves against each other to go at it.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:39
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NutritiousSnack posted:Kinda of like I just stated this took years of animosity of build up and was no single event. If there was a build up of years of resentment towards games journalists and towards social justice, couldn't there be a buildup of resentment in other ways, such as the popular backlash against fake gamer girls and other topics disliked by a core group of people resistant to the changing tastes in the games industry? natetimm posted:Perhaps if so many journalists and inde developers hadn't been utter shits on social media and in their articles for such a long time, there wouldn't have been such a visceral reaction when there was blood in the water. It really wasn't about Zoe, she was just the convenient reason for groups of people that had long aligned themselves against each other to go at it. It seems like you're still blaming the victim here. Perhaps if so many people hadn't been mean on twitter, then I wouldn't have been mean on twitter too? if she was the reason, why? It seems rather distasteful for an ostensible gamer's revolt to be triggered by a female game developer's alleged infidelity.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:40
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Cardboard Box A posted:Quinn offers further explanation however: Yeah the IRC quinn took selective screenshots, were most the users told the others to gently caress off with that poo poo.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:41
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NutritiousSnack posted:It went on for years making fun and then further critiquing the ending and the coverage to it actually. And we're talking about the press once again. No, it pretty much petered out into "welp Bioware killed the franchise" and how some of the DLC looked cool.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:43
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Popular Thug Drink posted:If there was a build up of years of resentment towards games journalists and towards social justice, couldn't there be a buildup of resentment in other ways, such as the popular backlash against fake gamer girls and other topics disliked by a core group of people resistant to the changing tastes in the games industry? There is absolutely none of that undercurrent in the GG hashtag at all. You wouldn't be able to hide it if it was. Women would not feel comfortable joining it if it was. There's a lot of dumb poo poo said in the name of GG, but they do not hate women or want women out of games.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:43
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Popular Thug Drink posted:If there was a build up of years of resentment towards games journalists and towards social justice, couldn't there be a buildup of resentment in other ways, such as the popular backlash against fake gamer girls and other topics disliked by a core group of people resistant to the changing tastes in the games industry? People being shits on Twitter having people be shits to them on Twitter is the circle of life.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:44
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blackguy32 posted:The kicker is that no one is preventing people from actual releasing said content. In fact, we get unrated stuff all the time when things reach home video. I guess you can make the argument that companies are censoring themselves in search of getting more people to go see their movies or play their games. But at the very root of that is capitalism as well considering that there is a non-insignificant amount of movies that choose to go for a PG-13 rating rather than the R rating and both of those are allowed to be seen in American movie theaters. There is a lot of self-censorship, but you are right. The PG-13 vs R doesn't have much, if anything to do with censorship. That's to reach the biggest audience possible. Preventing self-censorship would be more along the lines of eliminating AO and NC-17 and just sticking with an 'R' and an 'M' rating. That would prevent the so-called Scarlet Letter ratings where they are shoved in dark corners and never used because of how unprofitable they are. No, there isn't but the Parents Television Council is a conservative Christian organization that is extremely homophobic, favors government censorship and wants to force its views down people's throats. There is plenty wrong with that. blackguy32 posted:That isn't evidence that she got shitcanned. She might not have been fired, she might have been asked to leave. This is probable because Boing Boing/Outworld was completely defunct and was resurrected solely for Leigh Alexander. Gamsutra isn't very popular at all and Boing Boing is basically unheard of to anyone outside of GG. Nobody would make a career move like that unless they had to.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:44
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natetimm posted:There is absolutely none of that undercurrent in the GG hashtag at all. You wouldn't be able to hide it if it was. Women would not feel comfortable joining it if it was. There's a lot of dumb poo poo said in the name of GG, but they do not hate women or want women out of games. The gamergate hashtag was created explicitly in reference to Quinn. Saying that there are women in an anti-female movement is like saying that racists can't have black friends. It's not at all a sufficient demonstration that a group which is notable for harassing female game developers and journalists is not in fact at all anti female. natetimm posted:People being shits on Twitter having people be shits to them on Twitter is the circle of life. So there's just no way to stop people from organizing harassment on twitter and then claiming after the fact that it was completely political and non-partisan all along?
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Jun 30, 2015 07:45
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natetimm posted:My only complaint is that if you want to talk about her and my opinion of her and why I don't totally buy her story, don't then turn around and make accusations of some unhealthy sort of fascination because I have an opinion. There's no doubt that her situation is linked to GG, but pretending like everyone involved has this massive hate boner for her and obsesses over her just isn't true. If you want to debate and discuss Zoe Quinn's situation, fine, but using the fact that people are willing to discuss it with you as some sort of cudgel is dumb. I don't think that it's unfair to say that gamergate is unhealthily obsessed with Quinn, or that said obsession is a characterizing feature thereof. Look at it this way, if you were a member of the American Press back in 2008, you might not be obsessed with Sarah Palin personally. But it would be fair to say that the press was, in fact, creepily obsessed with her.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:45
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Popular Thug Drink posted:If there was a build up of years of resentment towards games journalists and towards social justice, couldn't there be a buildup of resentment in other ways, such as the popular backlash against fake gamer girls and other topics disliked by a core group of people resistant to the changing tastes in the games industry? Fake Gamer Girls? No. Changing tastes in the gaming industry? Well if you mean the rise of the indie scene, yes honestly. Gone Home, Broken Age, and even the poo poo with Phil Fish has no doubt a lot to do with this. The anger of Gone Home winning tons of awards and getting a pretty decent sales pissed them off for sure, and that's funny as hell that poo poo like that triggered them.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:46
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computer parts posted:No, it pretty much petered out into "welp Bioware killed the franchise" and how some of the DLC looked cool. Yeah, by the time the Citadel DLC was out, the "movement" was done. I really can't buy the line that the ME3 ending was part of the Gamergate genesis, it just seems like something trotted out as an afterthought to make it seem less of a witch-hunt.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:46
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Dapper Dan posted:She might not have been fired, she might have been asked to leave. This is probable because Boing Boing/Outworld was completely defunct and was resurrected solely for Leigh Alexander. Gamsutra isn't very popular at all and Boing Boing is basically unheard of to anyone outside of GG. Nobody would make a career move like that unless they had to. Gamasutra isn't trying to be popular, it's a trade publication and I can't understand for the life of me why it gets grouped in with consumer facing websites.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:46
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Popular Thug Drink posted:The gamergate hashtag was created explicitly in reference to Quinn. Saying that there are women in an anti-female movement is like saying that racists can't have black friends. It's not at all a sufficient demonstration that a group which is notable for harassing female game developers and journalists is not in fact at all anti female. Being anti-Quinn and being anti-female are not the same thing. I'm telling you that whatever harassment that happened to Quinn wasn't a result of misogyny or hatred of women in GG because that point of view doesn't even exist there. If anything it's a personal thing about her being an indie hipster and her political views. It's not a gender thing no matter how bad some news outlets want you to believe it.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:47
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computer parts posted:No, it pretty much petered out into "welp Bioware killed the franchise" and how some of the DLC looked cool. Weirdo posted:Yeah, by the time the Citadel DLC was out, the "movement" was done. I really can't buy the line that the ME3 ending was part of the Gamergate genesis, it just seems like something trotted out as an afterthought to make it seem less of a witch-hunt. Not on 4chan or Reddit, which are about a thousand times larger and more relevant than this. Also once again confusing anger towards press and devs.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:48
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Let us English posted:Gamasutra isn't trying to be popular, it's a trade publication and I can't understand for the life of me why it gets grouped in with consumer facing websites. Even so, you don't go from that to a basically dead site like Boing Boing without you having much of a choice. And there is no way I can respect a website that gives editorials to someone as pathetic as David Gallant.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:48
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Cardboard Box A posted:I agree that people should not, in good faith, try to accuse you personally of having some unhealthy fascination with Quinn. I agree with this, and I also think that both of those obsessions were not powered primarily by the target being a woman, but instead how that woman acted and their personal beliefs.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:49
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natetimm posted:Being anti-Quinn and being anti-female are not the same thing. I'm telling you that whatever harassment that happened to Quinn wasn't a result of misogyny or hatred of women in GG because that point of view doesn't even exist there. If anything it's a personal thing about her being an indie hipster and her political views. It's not a gender thing no matter how bad some news outlets want you to believe it. So gamergaters weren't hostile to her because she was a woman, it was because she was a leftist hipster? I'm not basing my allegations of misogyny on some claim from some media outlet, but because of the strongly gendered and hateful language that was used against her. It strongly indicated to me that a significant portion of her detractors were very concerned that she was a woman. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Jun 30, 2015 |
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Jun 30, 2015 07:49
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NutritiousSnack posted:Not on 4chan or Reddit, which are about a thousand times larger and more relevant than this. Well I'm not surprised folks on reddit and 4chan wouldn't move on, but the ME3 anger was aimed at Bioware first and foremost. Anger at other developers or critics for supporting Bioware was secondary.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:50
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Popular Thug Drink posted:it was because she was a leftist hipster? Same reason Amazing Atheist was tricked into sending nudes. Internet is a spiteful place.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:51
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Popular Thug Drink posted:So gamergaters weren't hostile to her because she was a woman, it was because she was a leftist hipster? She was a leftist hipster, she made a game lots of them detested, she was in an industry clique that was giving her benefits not commensurate with her talents, and she had a history of being a LOL cow on the internet. She was the female version of Phil Fish and got drat near the same treatment from the internet he did. It was never about her being a woman.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:51
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Popular Thug Drink posted:So people weren't hostile to her because she was a woman, it was because she was a leftist hipster? I recall one individual, some streamer I forget the name of, who did not wish to be associated with gamergate but greatly disliked Zoe after the Zoepost hit because he believed the behavior that Eron described was the same style of emotional manipulation/abuse he had received from a step parent.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:51
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Weirdo posted:Well I'm not surprised folks on reddit and 4chan wouldn't move on, but the ME3 anger was aimed at Bioware first and foremost. Anger at other developers or critics for supporting Bioware was secondary. Yeah, people wanted to burn Bioware to the ground. It died down after they redid the ending because people knew they weren't going to get anything else. I have no idea what this means for the new ME game. My guess is people will just forget what happened and just pre-order the gently caress out of it and buy 50 collectors editions.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:52
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Weirdo posted:Well I'm not surprised folks on reddit and 4chan wouldn't move on, but the ME3 anger was aimed at Bioware first and foremost. Anger at other developers or critics for supporting Bioware was secondary. My impression is that the anger at Bioware fizzled quickly after they said they were tweaking the ending, but there was lingering resentment towards EA and the press. Popular Thug Drink posted:So gamergaters weren't hostile to her because she was a woman, it was because she was a leftist hipster? Yes. They're hostile to plenty of male leftist hipsters such as Phil Fish and Jonathon McIntosh. Plus the game journalists at the publications that are their primary targets, who are overwhelmingly white male leftist hipsters.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:52
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INH5 posted:Yes. They're hostile to plenty of male leftist hipsters such as Phil Fish and Jonathon McIntosh. Plus the game journalists at the publications that are their primary targets, who are overwhelmingly white male leftist hipsters. Gamergaters hardly ever accuse these people though of being overly promiscuous and sleeping their way through the industry.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:53
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