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Taiping Tianguo Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Part 5 Part 6 Part 7 Part 8 Part 9 Part 10 Part 11 Part 12 Season 2 preview Xiang Rong has nowhere near enough manpower to be more than a hindrance to the Taiping. He takes his men and sets up the Jiangnan, or southern encampment, some distance from the city. While he has some competent commanders, such as former bandit Zhang Guoliang, his need to send men to fight in other regions will keep the southern encampment from making any serious attempts to attack the city. General Chen Jinshou will set up a similar camp with troops sent from the north, the Jiangbei encampment to the north of the Yangtze. Joined by Manchu cavalryman Shengpao, they will similarly perform little offensive action, typical discipline and coordination problems exacerbated by their northern troops unfamiliarity with the climate and terrain. These two camps will persist for years, rarely presenting any real threat to take the city, but hampering and harassing Taiping movements and supply where possible. (The imperial court will not be pleased with the lack of progress; one of Xiang Rong's letters requesting reinforcements receives a reply that he will need to include his head with the next letter he sends asking for more men. ) The Taiping, after spending a month settling into the heavenly city, proceed again with military offensives. There are several options to choose from: 1- Send a force north, seize Beijing, and end the Qing dynasty. This is an obvious thing to do. 2- Send a force west, retracing the steps by which they had come to Nanjing and reclaiming the cities they had abandoned on the march. Nanjing is very difficult to attack by land, so controlling the upper Yangtze will secure the capital and provide an economic base. 3- Continue east on the Yangtze, consolidate control over the rich Jiangsu province, and take Shanghai, center of foreign trade into China. 4- Remain in Nanjing, and destroy Xiang Rong and Chen Jinshou before doing anything else. The Taiping leaders at this point do not seem to see how important Shanghai, and by extension the western powers, can potentially be to both their economy and military operations. They take Zhenjiang to the east of Nanjing and leave a small garrison to protect the capital from that direction, but proceed no further. Later, when Shanghai is taken by a Triad uprising, the Taiping will have no troops to spare to assist.  Instead, they proceed with options 1 and 2, with vague plans for both armies to eventually converge in Sichuan province, having cut a (literal) circle of destruction through the empire and leaving the Qing dynasty utterly crippled, after which the Taiping could bring the provinces under control one by one. Launching both campaigns simultaneously is usually pointed to as one of the Taiping's biggest mistakes. For all of the tactical and operational talent displayed in getting to Nanjing, it appears that the peasants and charcoal burners running the rebellion lack the necessary understanding of economics, politics, and geography to develop a similarly impressive grand strategy. Not focusing all of their effort on taking Beijing is usually selected as the great missed opportunity to destroying the Qing dynasty. Similarly, focusing all forces on the Western campaign may have allowed the Taiping to conquer Hunan, which under Zeng Guofan will eventually prove to be the real center of gravity of imperial resistance. The Taiping split their forces not into two but three, as a third army is needed to stay near capital and keep lines of supply and communication clear from the interference of the northern and southern imperial camps. Why they did not squash these camps, reported to not hold more than 15,000 men at any given time, is a mystery, especially as many sources give Taiping strength at this time at half a million. Either Taiping numbers were really much lower, as Teng Ssu-Yu suggests, or they simply hosed up from either impatience or carelessness. In any case, the capital area defense army is given to North King Wei Changhui, while Assistant King Shi Dakai leads the western expedition. Command of the northern expedition falls to Lin Fengxiang and Li Kaifeng. Competent commanders, but thus far they have only operated as subordinates under Yang Xiuqing. The Taiping seem not to appreciate that you usually win the war by taking the other guy's capital, as they do not assign their highest ranking and most experienced generals to this critical mission. So, choose your own adventure time- 1. I want to hear about the Taiping fighting Mongol cavalry. Northern expedition! 2. I want to hear about the Taiping fighting Zeng Guofan and his fireball throwers. Western expedition please. 3. The Taiping are too mainstream now. I'd rather hear about a lesser known rebellion. 4. Not racist or anything, but please talk about white people for a bit.
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Jun 30, 2015 04:44
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Murgos posted:Apparently, George Washington had similar traits as here is a link to some 30,000 papers that he had written: http://founders.archives.gov/?q=Project%3A%22Washington%20Papers%22%20Author%3A%22Washington%2C%20George%22&s=1511211111&r=1 When you don't have email, instant messaging, twitter or facebook you tend to write a poo poo ton of letters. 'Received yours on the 25th, Lol Besties, Gee Dubs PS Please make sure all lumber previously ordered is of good make and no less than 4 hogs heads long'
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Jun 30, 2015 05:25
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Hunterhr posted:When you don't have email, instant messaging, twitter or facebook you tend to write a poo poo ton of letters. True. I've sent 32 texts today and that's fairly low. I'm sure if someone with my personality lived in the 19th century, he'd be constantly talking to his friends on the telegraph.
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Jun 30, 2015 05:51
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P-Mack posted:So, choose your own adventure time- HAhaha, but please, option one. Insert joke about Mongol hoards.
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Jun 30, 2015 05:56
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Same, lets hear about some hot Mongol on Rebel action.
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Jun 30, 2015 06:30
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Were 19th century Mongols the same hardened born-in-the-saddle badasses that conquered China during the Yuan, or had they been rendered soft over the centuries?
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Jun 30, 2015 06:43
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100 Years Ago An important day for the BEF's future combat capability, as tests for both a prototype landship and the Stokes mortar go off swimmingly in front of the new Minister of Munitions. On Gallipoli the Senegalese troops show us once again why advancing too aggressively is a really lovely idea, and at First Isonzo things are just really lovely, quite literally.
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Jun 30, 2015 07:48
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P-Mack posted:1. I want to hear about the Taiping fighting Mongol cavalry. Northern expedition! I'm gonna buck the trend and ask for option 2 - time to hear about someone actually competent on the Imperial side.
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Jun 30, 2015 12:59
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my rebellion is pretty obscure, you probably haven't heard about it (i.e. 3, P-Mack)
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Jun 30, 2015 13:26
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Chamale posted:True. I've sent 32 texts today and that's fairly low. I'm sure if someone with my personality lived in the 19th century, he'd be constantly talking to his friends on the telegraph. Back in the 1870s-1890s there was a huge uptick in mail in big cities. People were basically using the USPS as a personal messenger system. In some big east coast city (I think NYC, but not 100% sure) the post office was doing six pickup/deliveries a day to some neighborhoods, and people were installing all sorts of crazy little contraptions so that they would immediately know when a mail hit their maibox. Bells that would get activated by closing the mailman's side of it, stuff like that. It only really ended it was the widespread availability of telephones.
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Jun 30, 2015 14:41
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Chamale posted:True. I've sent 32 texts today and that's fairly low. I'm sure if someone with my personality lived in the 19th century, he'd be constantly talking to his friends on the telegraph. You'd have to be a millionaire in 19th century dollars. Texts are cheap, practically free. Telegraphs cost real money. I don't think Washington writing 3000+ letters a year while leading a revolution is really on the same order as you squeezing out 140 characters on your bathroom break.
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Jun 30, 2015 15:17
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Saw him again today for a short amount of time, so got a couple. I'm afraid they're not very long, anyway, stories from my Grandfather about working there. He first started about 42/43, since that's about when he graduated, civil engineer by training, but he said there wasn't much of that going on midwar, so he got work at the RAE at Farnborough. When he first arrived, and was being shown around, he heard a strange noise. He looked up and saw a plane flying around with no propeller, so he asked the guy showing him around what it is. He apparently looked very nervous and didn't say much. He later found out it was a de Havilland Vampire being tested, but at the time he had no clue what it was. Next thing I have from his first day, he was given a key and taken to a shed that everyone was a bit skittish about. When they opened it up to show him what it was housing, it was an unexploded V1 flying bomb. Apparently it had landed in Sweden, and being neutral, the Swedish ambassador contacted the British, and they somehow managed to smuggle it to the UK. My Grandfather didn't actually work on it, since by the time he arrived they had disassembled it and reassembled it again, but I just thought that interesting. Most of the rest of the time he was apparently load testing wings using a special rig. Most of the time it was Lancasters and Manchesters, but he said he was called in early one week to help with strength testing on parts for the Thunderbolt, pylons iirc. I would go into more detail on this now, but on Friday I'm going to be digging around at the back of his cupboards for reports he produced while doing this work. He says he might have got rid of them accidentally, but here's hoping I can find them. Hope this was interesting!
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Jun 30, 2015 15:37
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It was, thanks.
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Jun 30, 2015 16:24
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P-Mack posted:Taiping Tianguo 1, unless there are any interesting asides like Europeans finding out about "A 'Christian' Rebellion in barbarian lands", plotzing themselves, and making wildly misinformed judgements about it. Then 4 a bit, but only as it relates to this rebellion.
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Jun 30, 2015 16:28
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Suspect Bucket posted:1, unless there are any interesting asides like Europeans finding out about "A 'Christian' Rebellion in barbarian lands", plotzing themselves, and making wildly misinformed judgements about it. Then 4 a bit, but only as it relates to this rebellion. There will be plenty of time for option 4 later on in the war. Opium sales trump religion. Let's learn about the fireballs. 2.
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Jun 30, 2015 17:37
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Phobophilia posted:Were 19th century Mongols the same hardened born-in-the-saddle badasses that conquered China during the Yuan, or had they been rendered soft over the centuries? They dropped archery completely somewhere in the beginning of the 17th century. The Qing allied with the Khalka and genocided the Dzungars. Not much left after that, but the Khalka were integrated in the army. Some of the most famous paintings of that time show Mongol soldiers that served as bannermen. Ever seen this painting? There's some super precise details about the people and the equipment. All the officers in the pic had their portrait taken as part of the bonus for the campaign. This one is monumental and on display in some palace.  e: Link with some more info: http://www.battle-of-qurman.com.cn/e/hist.htm ee: Voting 1 Power Khan fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Jun 30, 2015 |
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Jun 30, 2015 20:12
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What's the best book for a layperson to read on Napoleonic tactics? Particularly anything that kinda elaborates why it's not dumb. Or for that matter, how they wouldn't lose to medieval armies or a Roman legion.
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Jun 30, 2015 20:49
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P-Mack, we're voting for order of posts and you'll eventually do them all, right? Please? Keeping that in mind 2.
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Jun 30, 2015 20:54
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Monocled Falcon posted:What's the best book for a layperson to read on Napoleonic tactics? Particularly anything that kinda elaborates why it's not dumb. Or for that matter, how they wouldn't lose to medieval armies or a Roman legion. On a scale of 1-10 how much of a good day doesn't grapeshot and musketry to the face from a very large army just to get in contact with them sound like?
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Jun 30, 2015 21:01
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Monocled Falcon posted:What's the best book for a layperson to read on Napoleonic tactics? Particularly anything that kinda elaborates why it's not dumb. Or for that matter, how they wouldn't lose to medieval armies or a Roman legion.
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Jun 30, 2015 21:01
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Monocled Falcon posted:What's the best book for a layperson to read on Napoleonic tactics? Particularly anything that kinda elaborates why it's not dumb. Or for that matter, how they wouldn't lose to medieval armies or a Roman legion. I have a lot to say about this, but out of curiosity what makes you think that a Roman legion could take, say, a French line battalion? The key to Napoleonic tactics is combined arms. Each arm is highly vulnerable to another arm in a certain way. For instance, infantry in square are basically invulnerable to cavalry, but can get hosed up really bad by either infantry in line or artillery. Artillery is devastating against infantry, but is easily overrun by cavalry. Cavalry sit around playing with each other's dicks all day being useless until the enemy breaks and then it's The Fun Time.
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Jun 30, 2015 21:11
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Pretty sure Napoleon's Old Guard could take on all 28 (immediately post Civil War) Roman Legions at once, and even if they lost due to sheer numbers they'd probably fight to the last man.
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Jun 30, 2015 21:15
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Jamwad Hilder posted:Pretty sure Napoleon's Old Guard could take on all 28 (immediately post Civil War) Roman Legions at once, and even if they lost due to sheer numbers they'd probably fight to the last man. Unsupported, I think the Guard loses, since there are enough Romans to close the range and in close I think it ends up being a push or favoring the guys with armor. If you throw in the Horse Grenadiers, the Chasseurs a Cheval, and the Horse Artillery Regiment, the Romans get hosed. This is getting in to gay black Lucius Cornelius Sulla / Michael Andreas Barclay de Tolly territory though.
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Jun 30, 2015 21:19
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What if the Romans are led by Ditka?
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Jun 30, 2015 21:20
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Unsupported, I think the Guard loses, since there are enough Romans to close the range and in close I think it ends up being a push or favoring the guys with armor. If you throw in the Horse Grenadiers, the Chasseurs a Cheval, and the Horse Artillery Regiment, the Romans get hosed. Haha yeah I immediately realized I should have gone with the Imperial Guard as a whole. By the invasion of Russia it's basically a complete army corps. ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:What if the Romans are led by Ditka? And their swords are laser swords
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Jun 30, 2015 21:23
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JaucheCharly posted:They dropped archery completely somewhere in the beginning of the 17th century. The Qing allied with the Khalka and genocided the Dzungars. Not much left after that, but the Khalka were integrated in the army. Some of the most famous paintings of that time show Mongol soldiers that served as bannermen. You say they dropped archery, but everyone in that painting has a bow and quiver in addition to their matchlock. Whats the deal?
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Jun 30, 2015 21:28
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The gap between medieval armies and Napoleonic ones isn't exactly blank either, and the evolution in that period shows why by 1800 armies are what they are. It should be obvious that a proper Spanish Tercio army would wreck a medieval or roman army (legions beat pikes eventually but it's slow if the pikes are in good order, and if they're continually getting shot in the face that isn't going to fly). Now by Napoleon's time they've got a whole bunch more firepower in their line to make up for the loss of reach with their melee arms and their artillery is preposterously brutal. Any cavalry carrying carbines or pistols is going to be a thorny prospect for even knights that aren't wearing thicker armor, and that's the weakest arm in comparison.
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Jun 30, 2015 21:29
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xthetenth posted:Any cavalry carrying carbines or pistols is going to be a thorny prospect for even knights that aren't wearing thicker armor, and that's the weakest arm in comparison.
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Jun 30, 2015 21:35
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P-Mack posted:You say they dropped archery, but everyone in that painting has a bow and quiver in addition to their matchlock. Whats the deal? That's the Qing army. Bannermen had to train archery. Ordered per edict http://www.manchustudiesgroup.org/2013/03/09/the-solon-way-2012-edition/
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Jun 30, 2015 21:37
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HEY GAL posted:now, once the people with firearms fire and if they don't decide to reload, the question is who gets the win, a dude with a lance or a dude with a proto-rapier? the great thing about the early 17th century is this almost certainly happened (lances were still a thing in the early 20s, even) so somewhere out there there's an account of this. Lances became a thing again, too. Nasty things. Useful for poking other cavalry in the face, less useful once the lance got stuck in a person/horse/ground, which they inevitably did. The correct theory for Napoleonic lancers was to have a squadron of lancers spread out in line, then a line about 40 yds back of your sword arme blanche cavalry, and a third line another 40 yds or so behind that one. The lances open the enemy formation of cavalry, then your sword guys get a lot of easy work. Lances suck in the furball, which is why they all ended up carrying swords as well. Napoleonic era balls hard, after that infantry and artillery are too good for anyone to have fun anymore.
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Jun 30, 2015 21:44
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Lances became a thing again, too. Nasty things. Useful for poking other cavalry in the face, less useful once the lance got stuck in a person/horse/ground, which they inevitably did.  i love this painting so much you guys
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Jun 30, 2015 21:48
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Those are ridiculous looking. I'm used to more like a spear, with a nice pole about 12 ft long with a 8-10" leaf shaped razor on the front. It does seem like it would be hard to get a good grip on the thing and charge home, but I think it's mostly about mass at that point.
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Jun 30, 2015 21:52
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Those are ridiculous looking. and the holster arrangement thing he's got going on there edit: that is the holster equivalent of little nephew's pants, and i am not sure why he did that HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Jun 30, 2015 |
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Jun 30, 2015 21:54
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:This is getting in to gay black Lucius Cornelius Sulla Pretty sure he swung both ways anyway.
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Jun 30, 2015 22:08
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HEY GAL posted:if you think that's funny looking, check out those sikk pistols the cuirassier's got Only way I can figure on that is that you do a cross-draw with both hands at the same time, and them fuckin things look like carbines at the smallest What is the brother on the horse in the slouch hat going to do with that giant loving musket? Is he a dragoon or mounted infantryman or some poo poo?
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Jun 30, 2015 22:33
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Only way I can figure on that is that you do a cross-draw with both hands at the same time, and them fuckin things look like carbines at the smallest quote:What is the brother on the horse in the slouch hat going to do with that giant loving musket? Is he a dragoon or mounted infantryman or some poo poo? Edit: Yeah, here's a comparison from the Canadian Museum of History. Carbine on the bottom:  HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Jun 30, 2015 |
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Jun 30, 2015 22:51
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P-Mack posted:Taiping Tianguo Go left.
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Jun 30, 2015 22:53
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The Bundeswehr milhist museum in Dresden was pretty good! I really liked their attempts at a three-part periodisation of <1914 being a looong age of intermittently growing extremes in German military tradition (stakes, scale, breadth of participation, everyday emotional investment), it culminating in the 30 year ( ) long catastrophe of the world wars period, and them ending up with the separation of their nation as partly some kind of period of penance. Macrohistory presented by a country's armed forces probably doesn't come more sensible than this.Maybe I read a bit much into the last part but at least it was a breath of fresh air to see so much space being reserved for showing the East German side of things, instead of the 'winning' organization glossing over their inherited past. Still, having the museum located in a former GDR city probably helped to provide for a balanced view - I couldn't imagine it being the same if it was in Münster or Koblenz or something anyway. Bottom line: over 9000 times better than last months Istanbul military history museum and their 'uncovering western lied about the alleged armenian "situation" and stuff'-hall for me. Also Dresden people are really nice and everyone should go there, plus irl pikechat.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:00
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HEY GAL posted:
JaucheCharly posted:That's the Qing army. Bannermen had to train archery. Ordered per edict Right, for some reason I assumed your first paragraph was about Mongols in Qing service and got confused. As near as I can determine Mongol bannermen ca. 1850 use pretty much the same kit as the Manchus, bows and all. Xiahou Dun posted:P-Mack, we're voting for order of posts and you'll eventually do them all, right? Please? Of course, I'm not a barbarian. It looks like northern expedition is the top choice, so I'll start there before moving on to the western expedition. After that I'll look at first Taiping contact with the west and the ongoing kerfuffle between the Qing and the west over treaty ratification. Last I'll look at some of the other rebellions breaking out all over. This post order works out well since I still need to read Teng's book on the Nian. All that should bring us up to 1856, aka the year the poo poo hits the fan.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:09
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Koesj posted:Bottom line: over 9000 times better than last months Istanbul military history museum and their 'uncovering western lied about the alleged armenian "situation" and stuff'-hall for me. Oh you've been to the second floor of the Istanbul museum? it ruined my already mediocre experience of the museum. That poo poo was really nasty.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:46
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