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osietra posted:I've been in Computer Science and the surrounding culture for almost 15 years and I have yet to find an effective counter to troll culture. They evolve just as fast as the medium. Short of removing anonymity entirely, or drastically increasing the powers of net surveillance, it's basically whackamole. Increasing the number of women and racial minorities tends to do wonders.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:03
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natetimm posted:Every game doesn't have to be specifically tailored to this mindset and there are plenty that fit the bill nicely. That fact that some don't is neither regressive or bad, it's a matter of taste. It's a mindset that should be common enough that games don't need to be "tailored" to it.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:05
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Zerilan posted:I think how much people get outraged over a few critics that would like for games to have less naked women in them is more showing of societal problems than the content of the games themselves. There are far fewer naked women in gaming than in film. The problem is the critiques against naked women are extremely basic and childish 90% of the time that rely extremely basic "It's there...and therefore...bad logic". Like arguments against the Witcher 3 never veered beyond "You can see her bra...and she's wearing HEELS (they were riding boots)" When Polygon puts out a simplistic "this is bad argument" there is a going to be a simplistic push back. This is how pretty much anything internet related works. computer parts posted:Increasing the number of women and racial minorities tends to do wonders. No, it doesn't. 4chan and SRS have a high percentage of women and minority in their userbases but are the biggest troll filled sub forums and cultures that operate openly on the internet. Having more women and minorites in the office makes things more professional, it doesn't effect online behavior. Kim Kardassin received a wave of death and rape threats by women when her iPhone game bugged out from a massively female audience. NutritiousSnack fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Jun 30, 2015 |
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Jun 30, 2015 23:05
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Panzeh posted:I don't think it poisons the mind or anything. Just seems kinda dumb. If you're gonna have a bunch of sex in a witcher game showing triss in her full glory and then shying away from showing geralt's dick strikes me as a bit off. Thats a ratings issue. Somehow you can get away with lady sexuality but add a penis and suddenly its an AO rating. Hatred got an AO rating but didnt even have nudity IIRC. the current rating system blows is what im sayin computer parts posted:Increasing the number of women and racial minorities tends to do wonders. he just copy pasted me  but id love to see some research on that! I personally dont see how diversity affects kickstarter trolling, for example
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Jun 30, 2015 23:07
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natetimm posted:Almost no studies conclude a thing could be ruled out.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:07
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Well if you WANT to talk about WWE divas we need a new thread! That's always been the counterargument to opposition of sexualization of women in media, and pornstars and strippers as well, that they are choosing these actions, or that they are proud of their bodies. Some feminists accept this, while others argue about systemic factors pushing women to these choices, or that it's not just about that individual, etc, but there has always been the counterargument that there is a real woman making the choice there. This is inapplicable when we're talking about some cartoon automaton and to watch dudes try to make the same argument that this imaginary mindless sexpuppet is proud of showing off her goods is hilarious
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Jun 30, 2015 23:07
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:
Women tend not to call feminist kickstarters as "Feminazis trying to censor the internet".
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Jun 30, 2015 23:08
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computer parts posted:Women tend not to call feminist kickstarters as "Feminazis trying to censor the internet". I don't think you've spent much time on the internet.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:09
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Zerilan posted:It's a mindset that should be common enough that games don't need to be "tailored" to it. The opinion that someone's personally held beliefs should be common is neither unique, special, regressive or progressive.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:09
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computer parts posted:Women tend not to call feminist kickstarters as "Feminazis trying to censor the internet". I mean the ability to mass donate and then pull out, as ive seen in certain projects. Not so much a gender than it is a tech issue.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:10
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natetimm posted:Every game doesn't have to be specifically tailored to this mindset and there are plenty that fit the bill nicely. That fact that some don't is neither regressive or bad, it's a matter of taste. Would it be okay for there to be regressive and racist depictions of minorities in AAA games, if not all games were as blatantly racist? Would it be a matter of taste?
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Jun 30, 2015 23:10
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Weren't a full 25% of posts in the last thread tezzor or bonvivant? I'm still upset that the latter was unwilling to substantiate his claims that tezzor was a pedophile, and I doubt bonny will post here out of fear of being banned.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:11
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Weirdo posted:Yeah, stealing them too, great job Gamergate! Also it's too bad D&D and comics were killed in the 80s Comics and D&D have increasingly become fringe mediums and have suffered actual cultural setbacks to censorship movements that succeeded and changed the market. The counter argument was "but they actually still exist in a literal sense"
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Jun 30, 2015 23:11
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Tezzor posted:That's always been the counterargument to opposition of sexualization of women in media, and pornstars and strippers as well, that they are choosing these actions, or that they are proud of their bodies. Some feminists accept this, while others argue about systemic factors pushing women to these choices, or that it's not just about that individual, etc, but there has always been the counterargument that there is a real woman making the choice there. This is inapplicable when we're talking about some cartoon automaton and to watch dudes try to make the same argument that this imaginary mindless sexpuppet is proud of showing off her goods is hilarious It's equally hilarious that some people think that imaginary character or by proxy, other real life people, are being oppressed by the shaking of those goods. That knife cuts both ways. She's still a pretend lady for everyone involved.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:12
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poptart_fairy posted:I don't think you've spent much time on the internet.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:12
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Thats a ratings issue. Somehow you can get away with lady sexuality but add a penis and suddenly its an AO rating. Hatred got an AO rating but didnt even have nudity IIRC. I don't think the rating system is terribly relevant these days in the modern PC gaming market, but I imagine it's a lot more prevalent in the Eastern European retail market so that might be it. FWIW, Witcher 3 was way way better about it than Witcher 2, even though they both had plenty of nudity to go around. It's still based on a particular kind of sexuality, but it was less gratuitous because W3 tended to put things in better context- a good example is the way the succubus encounters play out in the different games. Honestly the FF woman pic just felt like background noise to me given the way games are generally. Then again, the big developers know their audience.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:12
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Not an Owl posted:Would it be okay for there to be regressive and racist depictions of minorities in AAA games, if not all games were as blatantly racist? Would it be a matter of taste? Yes and yes. Otherwise you're arguing for censorship. Nobody should be forced to buy it, but there don't need to be rules to prevent it.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:13
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Re: trolling, their approaches to DDOS, doxx, avoid authorities and hide their identities is what i meant by evolving. Any current fad can be exploited and, despite even twitters increase in harassment control, theyre able to exploit it still.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:14
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hwordhan posted:Please post explicit examples! Man, just go to the tumblr thread for that sort of thing! Or post something vaguely about GG in PYF and see how quickly you got told to gently caress off back to Hellthread and/or tumblr depending on who they think you're supporting. 
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Jun 30, 2015 23:14
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computer parts posted:Women tend not to call feminist kickstarters as "Feminazis trying to censor the internet". Women are only slightly more likely to label themselves feminist or engage in feminist causes then men. 4chan has around a 60% female userbase, 4chan isn't known as a friendly open place. Once again Kim's game caused women to chimp out and act like abusive asshats online. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 30, 2015 23:16
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Tezzor posted:That's always been the counterargument to opposition of sexualization of women in media, and pornstars and strippers as well, that they are choosing these actions, or that they are proud of their bodies. Some feminists accept this, while others argue about systemic factors pushing women to these choices, or that it's not just about that individual, etc, but there has always been the counterargument that there is a real woman making the choice there. This is inapplicable when we're talking about some cartoon automaton and to watch dudes try to make the same argument that this imaginary mindless sexpuppet is proud of showing off her goods is hilarious I for one have never considered lara croft a mindless sex puppet, and I hope that neither do you! Do you think her death sounds are sexy?
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Jun 30, 2015 23:17
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NutritiousSnack posted:4chan has around a 60% female userbase, 4chan isn't known as a friendly open place. Once again Kim's game caused women to chimp out and act like abusive asshats online. 4chan is 100% homosexual too if you go by their self-identification.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:17
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NutritiousSnack posted:The study found no link to sexualized depictions of women to an increase of sexism. A while ago I was writing a paper on the subject of sexual objectification and the research that surrounds it, just as a preface. While it is debatable across all boards whether or not sexualized depictions of women cause sexism, the sexual objectification of women leads to the internalization of body images. Women from a young age are taught through socialization to internalize whatever media presents about women. After this internalization occurs, a woman's perception of her own physical stature changes, causing self surveillance. Therefore the average modern woman perceives her body in a negative light which can lead to a multitude of mental health problems. In other words, a woman not only sees herself, she sees herself through the eyes of a man. Now this typically applies only to heterosexual women, as well as gay men but that's a different topic altogether. A study I read, interestingly enough, also posited that when the average woman sees media of sexualized women, they associate numerous negative emotions with them. On the contrary, males only tend to associate a few negative emotions. When the subjects in the study were told to concentrate those feelings, men still underwhelmingly associated any negative emotions with the presented media and vice versa for women. What I believe this suggests is that your average man doesn't even register or know how to register what could be considered sexist in terms of sexualized media. Of course, that is purely conjecture on my part and these studies were far from perfect, but at least they were peer reviewed and in credible academic journals. All this information is yet to be confirmed due to how isolated said studies are and their frequency to range from reasonable to outright baseless hypothesis's. Either way there needs to be more CREDIBLE studies on the topic of sexual objectification and its effects. Early studies of it were academically biased and had terrible comparative research. Nonetheless, I feel that exploring it would be worth the academic endeavor in Gender Studies.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:17
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Tezzor posted:That's always been the counterargument to opposition of sexualization of women in media, and pornstars and strippers as well, that they are choosing these actions, or that they are proud of their bodies. Some feminists accept this, while others argue about systemic factors pushing women to these choices, or that it's not just about that individual, etc, but there has always been the counterargument that there is a real woman making the choice there. This is inapplicable when we're talking about some cartoon automaton and to watch dudes try to make the same argument that this imaginary mindless sexpuppet is proud of showing off her goods is hilarious By this logic, building a fully developed fictional character with his or her own consistent set of goals, experiences, and attitudes is impossible, because they're ultimately fictional automatons.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:17
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natetimm posted:Yes and yes. Otherwise you're arguing for censorship. Nobody should be forced to buy it, but there don't need to be rules to prevent it. Then the logical conclusion is that people should be (and currently) using their right to free speech to boycott or protest against the racism presented in the game without imposing rules. If a group of people argue, boycott, and protest a game developer for including racist or sexist characters, convincing the developers to include more realistic or progressive characters in future games, that would be an ideal scenario correct? Not laws are being created, nothing in the process is illegal, it;s just a group of people arguing for accurate representation.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:18
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natetimm posted:It's equally hilarious that some people think that imaginary character or by proxy, other real life people, are being oppressed by the shaking of those goods. That knife cuts both ways. She's still a pretend lady for everyone involved. how did you learn to speak a human language when apparently other people's opinions, actions and culture do not affect your perceptions or beliefs? are you a Chinese Room?
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Jun 30, 2015 23:18
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computer parts posted:4chan is 100% homosexual too if you go by their self-identification. All 4chan posts are by one guy. My source: 4chan irc logs
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Jun 30, 2015 23:18
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hwordhan posted:Please post explicit examples! Look up any boy band fan forum.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:19
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poptart_fairy posted:Man, just go to the tumblr thread for that sort of thing! Or post something vaguely about GG in PYF and see how quickly you got told to gently caress off back to Hellthread and/or tumblr depending on who they think you're supporting.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:19
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INH5 posted:Look up any boy band fan forum. I didn't know boybands dealt with feminism.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:20
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KaptainKrunk posted:By this logic, building a fully developed fictional character with his or her own consistent set of goals, experiences, and attitudes is impossible, because they're ultimately fictional automatons. Uh, yes? That's fiction. It's about the impression of life.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:20
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Guys, I've skipped maybe 100+ pages but I'm really digging the fresh dynamic. It's like a weird magnet of/for everything good/bad about social media.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:21
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hwordhan posted:So you do not have any explicit examples is what you are saying? More that I can't really be bothered because I know they'll just get drowned in about bout of Tezzor's attempt at aping SMG.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:21
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natetimm posted:Look, all the evidence in the presented study points in the same direction multiple studies on the effect of fiction has for years. The fact that people still desperately clutch to the fact that is hasn't been ruled out completely is pretty indicative of them believing what they want to in the face of contradicting data. Interpreting this garbled as best I can: No, this study doesn't claim what you say it does, it doesn't even attempt to set out to prove or disprove it. it isn't the point of the paper. you don't understand it. Moreover, single papers don't prove or disprove anything. The interaction between attitude, culture, representation etc. is complex, but there are a hell of a lot of studies showing the 'normalization' effect--basically, the common-sense thought that if you see something represented in cultural media, you interpret that as normal and/or acceptable. This doesn't mean that because we have shoot-em-up games that we think of shooting people in real life as normal--that'd be cultural media driving action, rather than attitude. However, if you hear lots of racist and sexist jokes, it normalizes that behavior--you tend to think racist and sexist jokes are okay. Likewise, if you see women represented as sexual objects lacking agency, or passive bystanders rather than protagonists, or as more emotional and less rational, etc. etc., that tends to inform your opinions. As well as being well backed up by data, this is, again, perfectly common sense.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:22
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Not an Owl posted:Then the logical conclusion is that people should be (and currently) using their right to free speech to boycott or protest against the racism presented in the game without imposing rules. Absolutely, and people who believe those folks to be over-dramatic censors hell-bent on forcing the world to adopt their political outlook have the same rights to use those tactics on the people they see as perpetrating it without being branded as misogynists or harassers. It's still 2 groups trying to censor poo poo, though.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:22
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Countries with low internet speeds have a higher occurrence of rapes. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 30, 2015 23:22
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poptart_fairy posted:More that I can't really be bothered because I know they'll just get drowned in about bout of Tezzor's attempt at aping SMG.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:23
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Obdicut posted:Interpreting this garbled as best I can: No, this study doesn't claim what you say it does, it doesn't even attempt to set out to prove or disprove it. it isn't the point of the paper. you don't understand it. Moreover, single papers don't prove or disprove anything. The interaction between attitude, culture, representation etc. is complex, but there are a hell of a lot of studies showing the 'normalization' effect--basically, the common-sense thought that if you see something represented in cultural media, you interpret that as normal and/or acceptable. This doesn't mean that because we have shoot-em-up games that we think of shooting people in real life as normal--that'd be cultural media driving action, rather than attitude. However, if you hear lots of racist and sexist jokes, it normalizes that behavior--you tend to think racist and sexist jokes are okay. Likewise, if you see women represented as sexual objects lacking agency, or passive bystanders rather than protagonists, or as more emotional and less rational, etc. etc., that tends to inform your opinions. As well as being well backed up by data, this is, again, perfectly common sense. Waiting for the link to all the great studies proving this.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:23
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osietra posted:Countries with low internet speeds have a higher occurrence of rapes.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:23
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hwordhan posted:I think you are projecting. Nah. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 30, 2015 23:23
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