|
The Cheshire Cat posted:The fundamental issue is that guys like Mike Huckabee don't believe that "gender identity" is a thing separate from sex at birth because they don't understand it and it's easier to just assume it's some pervert poo poo than to actually try to learn something about other human beings. Also they apparently believe that if someone is the kind of person to assault a child in the bathroom, being told to go to the other bathroom is going to be enough to stop them. "Oh, I was GOING to rape your daughter, but I'm not allowed in the women's bathroom. Foiled again!" This is totally the point, however when I talk to my trans friend about sex vs gender she seems to never ever agree that she was male biologically to start with and I don't get that. Am I missing something? I don't want to offend her more by asking 
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2015 17:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 01:01 |
|
|
thehustler posted:This is totally the point, however when I talk to my trans friend about sex vs gender she seems to never ever agree that she was male biologically to start with and I don't get that. Am I missing something? It's probably best not to push it if it bothers them (and it's a fairly personal topic anyway), but it's entirely possible for someone to have been born intersexed and been assigned a sex by doctors that ends up being the opposite of their gender. I think this is actually a lot more common than you'd think since sex is really just a spectrum of hormone balance and it's very rare that someone is actually 100% male or 100% female and while people do usually lean one way or the other, a fair number of people fall closer to the middle and aren't really biologically male OR female. *edit* oh god why did I even think reading the comments on the YouTube upload of the main segment would be a good idea 
The Cheshire Cat fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Jun 30, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2015 17:22
|
|
|
The Cheshire Cat posted:The fundamental issue is that guys like Mike Huckabee don't believe that "gender identity" is a thing separate from sex at birth because they don't understand it and it's easier to just assume it's some pervert poo poo than to actually try to learn something about other human beings. Also they apparently believe that if someone is the kind of person to assault a child in the bathroom, being told to go to the other bathroom is going to be enough to stop them. "Oh, I was GOING to rape your daughter, but I'm not allowed in the women's bathroom. Foiled again!" The line I always use for this is one I saw used a few years ago. Rapists generally aren't too concerned about whether they're allowed to be somewhere.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2015 18:10
|
|
|
The Cheshire Cat posted:The fundamental issue is that guys like Mike Huckabee don't believe that "gender identity" is a thing separate from sex at birth because they don't understand it and it's easier to just assume it's some pervert poo poo than to actually try to learn something about other human beings. Also they apparently believe that if someone is the kind of person to assault a child in the bathroom, being told to go to the other bathroom is going to be enough to stop them. "Oh, I was GOING to rape your daughter, but I'm not allowed in the women's bathroom. Foiled again!" It seems like the right always reduces any argument and sexuality and gender to "well if this happens then its easier to gently caress kids". I wonder what the 21st century equivalent would've been during the Civil Rights era, probably a bunch of lily white school girls walking into an integrated bathroom, followed in by a black thug looking girl swinging a butterfly knife around. Any new law/rights that emerge it's always "Oh no, we've thought up all these hypothetical scenarios where deviants can now prey on children. Wait, I just thought up 5 new ones! Make sure to write it down and make a video of how to do it" Seems kind of creepy if you look at it from a objective perspective.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2015 18:14
|
|
|
The Cheshire Cat posted:The fundamental issue is that guys like Mike Huckabee don't believe that "gender identity" is a thing separate from sex at birth because they don't understand it and it's easier to just assume it's some pervert poo poo than to actually try to learn something about other human beings. Also they apparently believe that if someone is the kind of person to assault a child in the bathroom, being told to go to the other bathroom is going to be enough to stop them. "Oh, I was GOING to rape your daughter, but I'm not allowed in the women's bathroom. Foiled again!" I think it goes a bit further than that for folks. Basically everyone I've ever had the displeasure of meeting who had a beef with trans rights only thought of it in the sense of "what is between your legs? that's what you are, period." Stuff like what Cheshire said about hormones? They don't give that a second thought, it's entirely about one's package, and that's the be-all, end-all of it for them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2015 18:24
|
|
|
ACES CURE PLANES posted:I think it goes a bit further than that for folks. Basically everyone I've ever had the displeasure of meeting who had a beef with trans rights only thought of it in the sense of "what is between your legs? that's what you are, period." Stuff like what Cheshire said about hormones? They don't give that a second thought, it's entirely about one's package, and that's the be-all, end-all of it for them. It's just how a really simplistic worldview works. Have a dick? You're a man. Not rich? You're not working hard enough. Racism? I've never been a victim of it, must not exist.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2015 18:34
|
|
|
thehustler posted:This is totally the point, however when I talk to my trans friend about sex vs gender she seems to never ever agree that she was male biologically to start with and I don't get that. Am I missing something? Medical sex is also socially constructed and can actually be understood as a gendered concept in and of itself in higher level analysis. The idea of a "biological sex" really only exists concretely in the context of an assumed binary opposition between "man" and "woman". There are many differences between bodies, and the privileging the genitalia as the single most important form of difference isn't really defensible under close scrutiny. Or if that's too crazy for ya, just don't say she had a male body/was a male because that's insensitive and shifts focus from her identity to her body (which is generally the opposite of what trans folks want to do!)
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2015 18:37
|
|
|
"Biological sex" for anisogmanous binary sexed species is a function of which of the two complementary gametes an organism produces, but it doesn't always map with outward appearance and is irrelevant outside of extremely specific reproductive contexts. A person can volunteer that information but it's unnecessary and rude to inquire about it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2015 18:50
|
|
|
ACES CURE PLANES posted:I think it goes a bit further than that for folks. Basically everyone I've ever had the displeasure of meeting who had a beef with trans rights only thought of it in the sense of "what is between your legs? that's what you are, period." Stuff like what Cheshire said about hormones? They don't give that a second thought, it's entirely about one's package, and that's the be-all, end-all of it for them. And even if they get the hormone thing into their heads, the focus switches to chromosomes which is even more stupid because literally no-one knows what their chromosomes are unless they pay for the test to find out. If this whole thing feels too depressing though remember this. The girl scouts are extremely trans-inclusive and in Seattle gave back a $100k donation because the donor said they couldn't use it to support trans girls. They started a crowdfunding campaign afterwards which is currently at $110k. njsykora fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jun 30, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2015 19:07
|
|
|
The other thing to consider, at least in why some people just don't seem to understand the concept of gender outside the binary, and how it doesn't always align with biological sex, is that its a concept that doesn't apply in most people's lives, and indeed has scarcely been a concept for most of human history. The vast majority of stories and ideas that lean on transgenderism do so from a binary perspective, which further muddies how people might try to understand (ie, a girl behaving more like a boy is framed as them being a tomboy, or simply behaving like a boy, not that the 'girl' identifies as a boy). It's not necessarily malicious, but it does leave a lot of people ill prepared, made worse by the fact that - by its nature - transgenderism has a relatively loose 'community', with a very wide arrange of differing concepts, terms, and understandings, and those who are malicious towards transgender individuals will exploit that. Personally, I only really gained a gradual understanding because I'm part of a very net-exposed generation, and I've actually known transgender people (both viewing it from the 'I am currently A, but intend to transition into and become B' perspective), so I've had incentive to try and understand. Prior to that, I don't think I even knew the term till I was, what, fifteen? It just simply hadn't seemed relevant beforehand, and so I was absolutely ignorant of it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2015 19:26
|
|
|
I feel like I'm too oblivious I just found out a friend was Trans, and I didn't know what to say, so I just said "So?" Apparently my best male friend was assigned a vagina at birth. Kind of cool how well he passes actually.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2015 20:44
|
|
|
Astro Nut posted:Personally, I only really gained a gradual understanding because I'm part of a very net-exposed generation, and I've actually known transgender people (both viewing it from the 'I am currently A, but intend to transition into and become B' perspective), so I've had incentive to try and understand. Prior to that, I don't think I even knew the term till I was, what, fifteen? It just simply hadn't seemed relevant beforehand, and so I was absolutely ignorant of it. I saw a Nova episode or TV documentary or something about intersex children and gender assignment in the early 80s when I was still a little kid myself, as well as more biased/sensationalized but also more visible Donahue, Sally Jesse, etc. day time talk show episodes with transgendered guests. So it is completely possible for an older person who is not part of the internet generation or queer activism to have a long -- even life long -- acquaintance with trans issues. Granted both the science and politics have evolved since the early 80s and that hasn't always been well-publicized.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2015 20:45
|
|
|
Pinky Artichoke posted:I saw a Nova episode or TV documentary or something about intersex children and gender assignment in the early 80s when I was still a little kid myself, as well as more biased/sensationalized but also more visible Donahue, Sally Jesse, etc. day time talk show episodes with transgendered guests. So it is completely possible for an older person who is not part of the internet generation or queer activism to have a long -- even life long -- acquaintance with trans issues. Granted both the science and politics have evolved since the early 80s and that hasn't always been well-publicized. Fair deuce, and apologies if I implied otherwise. I was thinking more in the sense that the internet both made the subject matter relatively more visible to me (ie, sites like tumblr), but also easier to try and find information on it, since really very little came up in the media I consumed and the education I had.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2015 21:28
|
|
|
Intersex and trans aren't the same thing, though, are they? As I understand it--and I could be wrong or be operating on out-of-date information--intersex people are born with externally ambiguous genitalia: it is simply not possible to determine their gender by the common examinations, and even genetic tests could be incorrect. In and of itself, this leads to all kinds of issues later in life, particularly with fertility. Transgender people, on the other hand, do not identify with the gender that they were assigned at birth, but they were born with unambiguously male or female genitals. And I'm not trying to offend; I've just always seen these as two different situations. If the terms are more-or-less interchangeable now, that's news to me. I've also seen documentaries on intersex individuals, especially those who, as noted, underwent a gender (re)assignment as very young children. Often, the stories focused on intersex kids who were surgically converted to female, as that is the easier surgery to perform and resulted in a more natural appearance, and then the parents were told to raise the child as female. There was a seed of progressiveness in this atrocity, by the way: at the time, the idea that gender is 100% nurture and 0% nature was gaining some traction, so this seemed like a viable solution to what was seen at the time as the medical and psychological "problems" an intersex child presented. Just cut off the sort-of penis that's there, put her in a dress, make her play with dolls, let her grow her hair--and she'll simply be a girl, because there's no difference between the genders, that's all society's doing. Turns out, that was a bad move, because although we can't express it as infants, we are born with a gender identity. The people in the stories I saw identified as male from an extremely young age, doing stereotypically boyish things, wanting to wear boy's clothes, etc. And the real tragedy is that at some point, they realized that before they could even have a say, well-meaning doctors and parents decided that their genitals would be better off mutilated than ambiguous. This all seems to have been big news 10-20 years ago, and I don't think this kind of intersex gender assignment surgery and therapy is still practiced in the United States. I could be very wrong about that,though. tarlibone fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Jun 30, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2015 21:28
|
|
|
tarlibone posted:Intersex and trans aren't the same thing, though, are they? As I understand it--and I could be wrong or be operating on out-of-date information--intersex people are born with externally genitalia: it is simply not possible to determine their gender by the common examinations, and even genetic tests could be incorrect. In and of itself, this leads to all kinds of issues later in life, particularly with fertility. Transgender people, on the other hand, do not identify with the gender that they were assigned at birth, but they were born with unambiguously male or female genitals. And I'm not trying to offend; I've just always seen these as two different situations. If the terms are more-or-less interchangeable now, that's news to me. Right, intersex and trans are not the same. And I think some of what I saw was made while science was in the process of learning from some of those children as they matured and were able to express that their natural gender was not the one assigned at birth out of convenience. I do think it's a good proxy for people to start thinking of transgendered identity in those born with more typical genitalia, though. I suspect there are still intersex children being assigned at birth today, but I'm not up on baby-related information of any kind.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2015 21:48
|
|
|
Pinky Artichoke posted:Right, intersex and trans are not the same. And I think some of what I saw was made while science was in the process of learning from some of those children as they matured and were able to express that their natural gender was not the one assigned at birth out of convenience. I do think it's a good proxy for people to start thinking of transgendered identity in those born with more typical genitalia, though. There definitely are still intersex people being assigned, often without the parent's knowledge. It's something that a lot of people are fighting to stop provided the state of the genitals does not immediately threaten the life of the child. Trans and intersex stuff tends to be bundled together though and the 2 groups run together a lot.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2015 21:53
|
|
|
tarlibone posted:Definitions There can be some overlap and debate at times, whilst the terms themselves can be somewhat broad. Intersex, at the broadest understanding (that I'm aware of anyway) roughly means that a person is in some way between being a 'default' male or female (which as mentioned above, is itself under increased scrutiny), whether its a matter of visible genitalia differences, or hormonal differences derived from extra chromosomes whilst externally a clear sex, etc. Transgender, as you say, broadly refers to somehow who does not identify with the gender identity given to them at birth, but, many will validate or consider their perspective in terms of an intersex framework. Fairly understandable that some feel, on finding that they do not clearly align with a single sex, that their identity must lie outside that boundary. But others may feel that way simply because of the social constructs and expectations found in either gender identity, rather than because of the dissonance with a textbook understanding of their chemistry. Often transgender is used as a shorthand to cover intersex persons as well (ie, outside the normal sex/gender boundaries, ironically conflating sex and gender), though as you might have guessed, some aren't too happy about that. Hence its suggested (and in many circles, already decided) that the abbreviation 'LGBT' should be expanded to be 'LGBTI' (and that's before you add in a Q for Queer).
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2015 21:55
|
|
|
njsykora posted:There definitely are still intersex people being assigned, often without the parent's knowledge. It's something that a lot of people are fighting to stop provided the state of the genitals does not immediately threaten the life of the child. Trans and intersex stuff tends to be bundled together though and the 2 groups run together a lot. Does that group sometimes get mingled with the anti-circumcision crowd?
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2015 21:57
|
|
|
I think circumcising infants is pretty gross but it is not even remotely the same thing as surgical assignment of intersex people. The people who compare penile circumcision to clitoral circumcision or any other forms of female genital cutting are also dumb and wrong by a few orders of magnitude.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 01:18
|
|
|
Astro Nut posted:Often transgender is used as a shorthand to cover intersex persons as well (ie, outside the normal sex/gender boundaries, ironically conflating sex and gender), though as you might have guessed, some aren't too happy about that. Hence its suggested (and in many circles, already decided) that the abbreviation 'LGBT' should be expanded to be 'LGBTI' (and that's before you add in a Q for Queer). I've always preferred QUILTBAG since it manages to be more inclusive in just a fraction of the syllables!
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 02:07
|
|
|
Wait... what's the U?
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 02:12
|
|
|
Gaz-L posted:Wait... what's the U? undeclared, probably, to cover genderless-identifying people honestly i think the whole LGBTQAI thing is a relic and a holdover from when it was just G/L and they appended more and more letters onto the acronym as various causes and sexually/genderfluid people were gradually accepted under the generalized banner, and it's now become so unwieldy that the movement should recenter under the generalized term "queer" and be done with it it's both awkward and a visual reminder of how exclusionary the gay movement was to start, rejecting bi/trans people for a long time as either "bad gays" or "liars", respectively, and keeping the acronym is more indicative of that more shameful part of the movement's legacy it works now since the negative connotation of queer has been removed because the movement was able to take the word back and works as a catchall
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 02:20
|
|
|
Philip Rivers posted:I think circumcising infants is pretty gross but it is not even remotely the same thing as surgical assignment of intersex people. The people who compare penile circumcision to clitoral circumcision or any other forms of female genital cutting are also dumb and wrong by a few orders of magnitude. This is one of those points where the anti group has lost their loving mind and anyone discussing it at all will screamed down with some seriously invective language. During 2012 I was still reading Andrew Sullivan from time to time, because there were some interesting things he said, but after his loving tirade against circumcision I gave up. It came down to him responding to a woman who was upset that she let herself get pressured into having her son circumcised with something along the lines of "I hope you die you loving whore you mutilated your son's genitals damaging him for life and he should be taken away from you" People get super heated over circumcision, to the point where most people believe the bs "it kills all the nerve endings" and "non-circumsicions have a 100000% less chance of passing HIV" and all the other weird statistics.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 03:01
|
|
|
pentyne posted:This is one of those points where the anti group has lost their loving mind and anyone discussing it at all will screamed down with some seriously invective language. During 2012 I was still reading Andrew Sullivan from time to time, because there were some interesting things he said, but after his loving tirade against circumcision I gave up. It came down to him responding to a woman who was upset that she let herself get pressured into having her son circumcised with something along the lines of "I hope you die you loving whore you mutilated your son's genitals damaging him for life and he should be taken away from you" I get the feeling that a lot of the anti-circumcision people are uncircumcised themselves. Because I have heard some crazy poo poo that people would know was absolutely not true if they asked even one circumcised man. I mean the original logic behind circumcision being a common practice is fairly stupid (It'll stop them from masturbating!), so there's not really any point to getting it done, but going beyond "it's actually pointless" as a reason not to get it done is just getting into insane hyperbole and if someone does have it done it really doesn't matter.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 03:14
|
|
|
The Cheshire Cat posted:I get the feeling that a lot of the anti-circumcision people are uncircumcised themselves. Because I have heard some crazy poo poo that people would know was absolutely not true if they asked even one circumcised man. My introduction to the anti-circumcision movement was a guy who used to come into the library where I worked 20 years ago and write long emotional newsletters about his wounded penis, so I've always assumed that most of them were from the small minority of circumcised men who have some sort of penis problems, legitimately related or otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 03:35
|
|
|
A kid in my graduating class in highschool got circumcised for some reason during his senior year, and he was instructed not to masturbate for six weeks. So all of us tried to act really slutty around him. I mean yeah, we were all friends, and he was a great guy, but those were cruel times and highschoolers know only gleeful malice.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 03:40
|
|
|
uh, how do you even know you're circumcised, all dicks look the same.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 04:51
|
|
|
Turtlicious posted:uh, how do you even know you're circumcised, all dicks look the same. send it to me I'll help
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 05:00
|
|
|
I found this article really interesting. I don't have a problem per-se with Trans-peeps. I'd call them what they want, respect them etc etc. but I'm also kind of ignorant. I guess it's a good thing I'm aware of my ignorance so that's a start but i'll admit that I'd find it a lot more difficult if my son told me he was a women than if my son told me he way gay.Turtlicious posted:uh, how do you even know you're circumcised, all dicks look the same. Turtlicious posted:I feel like I'm too oblivious
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 05:27
|
|
|
xcore posted:I found this article really interesting. I don't have a problem per-se with Trans-peeps. I'd call them what they want, respect them etc etc. but I'm also kind of ignorant. I guess it's a good thing I'm aware of my ignorance so that's a start but i'll admit that I'd find it a lot more difficult if my son told me he was a women than if my son told me he way gay. Yeah my dad disowned me on the spot. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 05:29
|
|
|
The Cheshire Cat posted:I get the feeling that a lot of the anti-circumcision people are uncircumcised themselves. Because I have heard some crazy poo poo that people would know was absolutely not true if they asked even one circumcised man.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 05:33
|
|
|
Philip Rivers posted:Yeah my dad disowned me on the spot. I'm not saying I'd disown him, I'd just end up probably saying/asking a bunch of insensitive things (see: John's "so what's between your legs?" example) and it would be a lot to get my head around initially. I think it comes down to me knowing a bunch of gay people, but not any Trans. I'm sure I could get over it eventually.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 05:38
|
|
|
pwn posted:leave the baby penis alone. When you see a newborn baby, resist the burning urge to start loving with his penis. With each other's support, we can get through this. The main reason to have children is to gently caress with them mercilessly and get off on those few years where you spoil them and they view you as an all powerful God.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 05:46
|
|
|
I always thought it was a cleanliness thing. Untrue?
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 05:50
|
|
|
If your penis looks kinda like a raisin, is that cut or uncut?
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 06:02
|
|
|
I thought in recent polls the most popular reason people get their kids circumcised is so they look like their dad?
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 06:10
|
|
|
Zythrst posted:I thought in recent polls the most popular reason people get their kids circumcised is so they look like their dad? Gross.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 06:10
|
|
|
xcore posted:I always thought it was a cleanliness thing. Untrue?
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 06:53
|
|
|
xcore posted:I always thought it was a cleanliness thing. Untrue? well, no, doctors aren't in agreement on whether or not male circumcision results in a lower rate of infection due to lack of foreskin (if it is, it's marginal and might be offset by increased exposure of the foreskin-less penis) and either way it was popularized in america, the country that implements male circumcision by far the most, by a nut who believed that circumcision would result in boys not itching their penises as often, which meant that they wouldn't therefore masturbate because scratching your penis = jacking off or something that nut was this weirdo dude who was stringently anti-masturbation and sex in general, not from religion or anything but because he genuinely believed that masturbation and sex for any reason other than explicit procreation was what caused basically every single illness. his pushing of male circumcision to curb masturbation was his by-far least horrific method of curbing masturbation, considering he also recommended female circumcision for sexually exploratory girls and tying the penis to the body in such a way as an erection would be virtually impossible without ludicrous levels of pain on the boy's part that nut, by the way? his name was john kellogg. if that name sounds familiar, yes, he's the same guy who founded the cereal empire. grape nuts, granola, and corn flakes were all inventions on his part because he believed that diet was linked to sexual desire, so he intentionally designed the blandest and plainest foods possible because he assumed that eating rich foods was why people were horny he also was super obsessed with colons, like, he had an enema a day and he founded a facility where he gave people daily enemas anyways, next time you're enjoying a bowl of frosted flakes or shredded wheat be aware that you're supporting a company founded by a guy who pushed male circumcision because he hated sex so much
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 06:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 01:01 |
|
|
xcore posted:I always thought it was a cleanliness thing. Untrue? Do you have running water available in your house, or anywhere nearby? If you have further questions then I suggest starting a circumcision thread to allow for a more complete debate on the subject.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 06:57
|
|
