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Menelven posted:Next thing I have from his first day, he was given a key and taken to a shed that everyone was a bit skittish about. When they opened it up to show him what it was housing, it was an unexploded V1 flying bomb. Apparently it had landed in Sweden, and being neutral, the Swedish ambassador contacted the British, and they somehow managed to smuggle it to the UK. My Grandfather didn't actually work on it, since by the time he arrived they had disassembled it and reassembled it again, but I just thought that interesting. A number of V1's did indeed land in Sweden, but, well, since it was mostly a matter of crash landings they were in a lot of small parts. Still, enough remained for some nerds at the Royal Institute of Technology to analyze the design and make a pretty close guess as to what it had looked like originally. Then we traded some of the wrecks to the Brits in exchange for radar sets (the principle was known but building actual working sets was still some ways off in Sweden at the time). There was actually sort-of regular air traffic between Sweden and the UK at some points during the war - a risky business, to be sure. A pretty large number of lost or damaged aircraft from both sides (but mainly the allies) were also interned here, especially during the large bomber campaigns in '44 and '45. Nice stories btw! TheFluff fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jun 30, 2015 23:57
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Fizzil posted:Oh you've been to the second floor of the Istanbul museum? it ruined my already mediocre experience of the museum. That poo poo was really nasty. I kinda guessed what I was in for when entering the first room - the glorious turk and his innate talent for conquest - and just rolled with the punches from there on. Then you get to see something that goes way beyond the usual nationalist glorification thing, and the joke's on you for not having left when you should have.
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Jun 30, 2015 23:59
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HEY GAL posted:Pistols big. Is that because of the low pressure achievable at the time, so you need a long barrel to get a usable velocity?
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Jul 1, 2015 01:02
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The Lone Badger posted:Is that because of the low pressure achievable at the time, so you need a long barrel to get a usable velocity? There were still plenty of compact pistols around. But most pistols you see from that time period were meant to be used as combat pieces rather than emergency holdout guns, and a good number of fighters used pistols as their primary weapons. A long barrel makes sense for that kind of weapon. But yes, the greater efficiency of smokeless powder is what allows for us to have such compact weapons. Imagine a world where every pistol cartridge is still at least the size of a .357 Magnum round.
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Jul 1, 2015 01:25
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Taiping Tianguo Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Part 5 Part 6 Part 7 Part 8 Part 9 Part 10 Part 11 Part 12 Part 13 North, always to the North The Northern campaign starts with high hopes. Sources vary tremendously as to the number of men assembled, from 20,000 to 80,000, but most historians seem to pick something near the higher end. If it was actually towards the low end, that just amplifies both the military achievements of the expedition, and the folly of its conception. The men will draw heavily from the newer recruits, and there will be some errors and missteps that seem out of place with the smooth efficiency displayed in the Nanjing campaign. They depart in three armies at first, with Li Kaifang and Lin Fengxiang leading the center, with Ji Wenyuan leading a seperate column to the west and Chu Xikun and Huang Yiyun commanding to the east. Things get off to a bad start when the eastern army makes a wrong turn. A detailed system for ensuring the army goes the right way had been developed and used previously, but somehow they end up at the city of Liuhe, northeast of where they were supposed to be going. The local militia was backed up by 4000 Manchu cavalry, and together they inflict serious losses on the rebels before the Taiping flee back the way they came. At least thats the story they tell Beijing. The other version of the story is that a massive ammunition explosion in the Taiping camp forced the Taiping retreat from Liuhe, possibly killing Huang Yiyun in the process. (This is where its important to note how sketchy sources on these military campaigns are. We rarely have any input from the Taiping side, as any dispatches sent back to Nanjing would have been destroyed at the end of the war. The few Taiping letters we have are those which were captured in transit and then included in imperial reports. Imperial reports, while voluminous, are hampered by the fact that the writers weren't interested in recording facts for posterity, but in advancing their own careers. There's at least one story of an official bribing the Taiping army to bypass his city, then writing a detailed report to the capital about the huge battle he had fought and won to drive the rebels back. He gets promoted, unlike the sucker who tries to defend his city and gets reassigned to Xinjiang for failing. So the historians are left sifting through contradictory reports in which Magistrate Zhou says he won a great victory, while General Jun says Zhou got dunked on and ought to be replaced (and by the way my nephew just passed the examinations and would be perfect for the job). This is an internet comedy forum, so where accounts conflict I will generally be erring on the side of larger explosions.) The Taiping choose not to proceed directly north, taking the shortest route through Shandong. Instead, deterred by largely inaccurate reports of strong imperial forces to the north, they move northwest through Anhui and Henan. This is another error that will cost them dearly, as valuable time is wasted. Once the forces recombine though, they achieve some success in the initial march through Henan. They crush imperial forces outside Guide, then seize the city when sympathizers open the gates. The Taiping are still finding much popular support as they march, as volunteers join their ranks and bands of Nian rebels assist. Most of the Nian aren't interested in joining the Taiping permanently, preferring to stay in their local areas. The Nian may be more bandit than soldier for the most part, but their cavalry support will alleviate one of the major weaknesses of the Taiping force. Dude, where's my boat? The Taiping are frustrated by the fact that they have reached the Yellow River, but cannot cross it. Wang Shanqian, an important official assigned from Beijing, has been working hard at the sole task of making sure every boat is kept on the northern bank. The army instead moves west to Kaifeng. There first assault is beaten back, but they have a huge advantage in numbers and only a miracle can save the city. A miracle is provided that night when the Yellow River overflows, inundating the Taiping camp. The Taiping's powder is soaked, many are drowned, and the waterlogged terrain means they cannot tunnel or construct siegeworks. They are forced to abandon Kaifeng and continue west again towards Gongxian, with imperial armies slowly catching up.  Frustrated by the lack of boats, they are on the verge of turning back south and linking up with the Western expedition, which in retrospect would have been the best thing for both armies and would rectify the original strategic error of splitting the forces. In a fortuitous moment, though, soldiers find a handful of boats. These are used to cross to the northern bank and seize more, until soon there are enough boats to start ferrying the army across, a process which takes several days. It is not complete when the imperial troops catch up, and anywhere from 1000 to 30,000 troops are left behind. (nobody ever has accurate numbers for anything). This remnant force will be hounded by the imperialists as it retreats south, winning battles and losing them, but losing men each time, until only a few thousand are left to reach the Yangtze and the Western Expedition. Shanxi, not Shaanxi The force on the north bank has at last crossed the river, and moves on to the city of Huaiqing, where they gently caress up pretty bad. Trying to take Huaiqing is not an error. It controls the Tan river, and seizing the city will let them move rapidly by boat towards Beijing. It also is rich in supplies, which the army definitely needs. The gently caress up is that after their first attempt fails, they waste an additional two months trying and failing to take the city, while Manchu commanders like Xilinga and Shengpao arrive and begin to encircle the Taiping with an army that grows to 60,000. (I remember we discussed at one point that Napoleonic generals don't fortify siege lines on the outside. These guys do it all the time, and some battles will be crazy matryoshka dolls of nested sieges.) Far too late, the Taiping give up and breakout into Shanxi province. They take the city of Pingyang, and the nearby city of Hezhou, whose inhabitants actually opened the gates to the Taiping. Shengpao blocks their path to the north, which is fine because Beijing to the east is still the goal. They advance on the capital, where panic sets in at the Taiping approach. Mongol prince and general Sengerinchen is tapped by Prince Hui (the emperor's uncle) to lead the defense. He brings with him several thousand mongol cavalrymen, some of the only imperial forces still deserving their elite reputation. Sengerinchen is one of the rare regular imperial commanders to actually be good at his job, and will use his cavalry advantage to harass the Taiping advance. The Taiping have numbers but not supplies, the imperial force defending the capital have a clear advantage in cannon, powder, cavalry, and coats. (The Taiping are mostly southerners, and winter is coming.)  One Yard Short The Taiping up to this point have enjoyed surprising popular support, as evidenced by Hezhou. The same discontent with imperial rule that birthed the Nian transferred into support for the Taiping. This isn't to say the appearance of the Taiping army was necessarily welcome. Where the Taiping went, the less disciplined imperial armies would follow, not to mention the bandit gangs (Nian and otherwise) which would follow the army to take advantage of the chaos. Generally speaking, the regular Taiping troops showed restraint- until Cangzhou. The Taiping are caught off guard when the small city militia launches a sudden attack on the Taiping vanguard, killing many before the main force arrives and crushes them. Furious at the death toll, the Taiping massacre the survivors and burn the city, killing up to 10,000. This is a major public relations disaster, and from this point on the local populace will fear the Taiping and provide more support for the imperial forces.  The Taiping move forward to Tianjin, as close to Beijing as they will ever get. The resistance ahead is too strong. The Taiping can't take the city, and they don't have the cavalry needed to engage Senggerinchen in open battle. They fall back south, to fortified positions at Duliu and Jinghai. The wooden fortifications and moats dug from the nearby grand canal prove a very strong defense, and they inflict a major defeat on Shengpao when he attempts a full scale assault in December. The strategic situation remains dire though, and the freezing, hungry troops are forced to make a breakout in February, 1854. They proceed slowly, village by village, fortifying each one, as they lack the speed to out run the imperial cavalry. They eventually make it to Foucheng, where they wait desperately for news of a promised relief force. Senggerinchen has heard the same news, and sends Shengpao and Shanlu south to make sure the relief doesn't come. Ain't no one gonna save you The relief army had been sent that summer, under commanders Huang Shengcai and Xu Zongyang. They number 30,000, to pull a round number out of my rear end. Their numbers swell as they move northward, with Nian rebels and others joining the force, most of whom will later desert. The force moves quickly, not stopping to take cities, until they reach Linqing on March 31st. They are a mere 70 miles from Foucheng, but cannot go any further. They need food and supplies from the city, as well as a defensible position to fend off Shanlu and Shengpao's approaching troops. (Shengpao gets into some drama when imperial general Chang Liangshi executes some of his men for robbing civilians in broad daylight; the court sides with Shengpao)The Taiping take the city on April 13th, only to find that all food and ammunition has already been put to the torch. Their new recruits desert in droves, and the army is forced to withdraw. Some will turn bandit, some defect to the imperialists, and the rest are hunted down by pursuing imperial troops, with great losses when they recross the Yellow River. Only a few thousand eventually make it back to Taiping territory.  The bitter end The northern expedition stays in Foucheng until May, when dwindling food makes them chance another breakout, escaping setting up another fortiifed position at Lianzhen. After three weeks with no sign of reinforcement, Li Kaifang takes 2000 cavalry to seek out the relief army, which unbeknownst to him has already been defeated. Lin Fengxiang remains with the infantry, now numbering well under 10,000. Despite the dwindling Taiping numbers, the imperialists are reluctant to assault, and maintain the siege into 1855. Several thousand surrender during the winter, and the one or two thousand left are finally killed fighting to the death when Sengerinchen attacks with his 30,000 men in March of 1855. Among the dead is Lin Fengxiang, who is captured and executed. Meanwhile, Li's tiny force has been holed up in the city of Gaotang, besieged by Shengpao. Shengpao has spent the last 10 months trying and failing to take the city, defended by no more than 1000 men. His force of nearly 15,000 has dwindled to about 3,000 during the process. As soon as Sengerinchen arrives, Shengpao is exiled to Xinjiang for gross incompetence. Sengerinchen has a better plan, where he intentionally weakens the guard on the south gate to induce the Taiping to flee. He pursues them closely, running them to ground in a small village at Fengkuantun. The tiny force is entrenched and still has a fearsome reputation for close combat, so a clever plan is devised where a channel is dug from the grand canal to flood the low lying village. With their food and ammunition soaked, the last survivors surrender and swim out to be executed. Sengerinchen returns to the capital to be feted as a hero.  The northern expedition was plagued by flaws both in conception and execution. But if we step back for a second, on a purely military level, what this army accomplished is an astonishing feat. With no supply lines or communication with the capital, they fought for over two years and covered 1500 miles; imagine if Sherman had started his march in Wyoming. Nevertheless, the loss of these forces, including many experienced soldiers and commanders, will be a great blow. Even greater is the lost opportunity. Imperial defenses in the north would never again be so weak as they were in early 1853. Might need to wait a bit longer for the post on the western expedition, but it's coming eventually.
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Jul 1, 2015 04:05
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HEY GAL posted:edit: that is the holster equivalent of little nephew's pants, and i am not sure why he did that You could not make your holsters ride any lower so you made individual holsters for each side of your horse SAY IT
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Jul 1, 2015 04:34
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And so I finish reading the thread - including it's predecessor in the archives. This poo poo took me months. Thank you everyone, you have absolutely transformed my understanding of wars and the dudes who do wars. Funny, tragic, shocking, familiar, occasionally heartwarming - you guys and your stories are the best. Could someone refresh me quickly as to what specifically was wrong with the Tiger 2? I know it was a logistical boondoggle but a bunch of people I know won't shut up about how great it was. Wasn't it something like 9 out of the first 45 made actually reached the front lines?
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Jul 1, 2015 04:39
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Thanqol posted:Could someone refresh me quickly as to what specifically was wrong with the Tiger 2? I know it was a logistical boondoggle but a bunch of people I know won't shut up about how great it was. Wasn't it something like 9 out of the first 45 made actually reached the front lines? When you design an overly complex machine with minute tolerances, you tend to be very reliant on a consistent high quality of materials like steel and good factory output. Neither of those really worked out for the Nazis.
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Jul 1, 2015 04:43
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Thanqol posted:Could someone refresh me quickly as to what specifically was wrong with the Tiger 2? I know it was a logistical boondoggle but a bunch of people I know won't shut up about how great it was. Wasn't it something like 9 out of the first 45 made actually reached the front lines? quote:Despite the menacing armour and gun of the tank, it had many drawbacks. The "King Tiger" was very unreliable. Vehicles broke down after a very short march. Heavy tank battalions often went into battle with reduced numbers because of this. The worst part was the suspension. The tracks often jammed, drive wheels lasted only 300 hours. The side reductors were destroyed after only 250 hours of use. The overloaded engine overheated, the cooling system could not keep up. Finally, the tank was so heavy, that few bridges could hold it. This significantly reduced the operational maneuverability of the "King Tiger". By the end of the war, the Germans could no longer manufacture quality armour, so the tank's thick hide could not protect it from shells as well as earlier vehicles. Even on non-penetrating shots, fragments of armour flew off and struck the crew and components.
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Jul 1, 2015 04:49
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P-Mack posted:Taiping Tianguo I'm just consistently amazed at how ineffective the the Qing State is, talk about a paper tiger. The Taiping's ability to handle logistics, siege and counter-siege combat is really impressive, considering their military was built from the ground up by effete-scholars.
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Jul 1, 2015 05:01
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Thanqol posted:Could someone refresh me quickly as to what specifically was wrong with the Tiger 2? I know it was a logistical boondoggle but a bunch of people I know won't shut up about how great it was. Wasn't it something like 9 out of the first 45 made actually reached the front lines? Yup, when the Soviets secured their first foothold over the Vistula, the Germans figured it was a pretty raw deal for them so they sent in their coolest and shiniest new tank. Out of a whole battalion of 45 tanks, 12 made it to Ogledow and Staszow, which then got eaten up by T-34-85s and IS-2s waiting in ambush. If you want a point by point "why the King Tiger is not so great" list, I've been working on a sequel to something I wrote a while back, so for now read that and mentally add "King" before "Tiger", most of it applies. Ensign Expendable fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jul 1, 2015 05:22
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Thanks guys, I've passed the links on and sincerely hope that will be the last I have to hear of it.
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Jul 1, 2015 05:42
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Here, I whipped what I had on the Tiger II specifically into a semi-decent shape: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4IOAl6nZp3kdXpDLUxsQXlMd2M/view?usp=sharing
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Jul 1, 2015 05:43
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Koesj posted:Also Dresden people are really nice and everyone should go there, plus irl pikechat. Edit: Next time you go to Dresden you should check out the Festung Dresden museum/wall complex.
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Jul 1, 2015 07:33
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Koesj posted:Bottom line: over 9000 times better than last months Istanbul military history museum and their 'uncovering western lied about the alleged armenian "situation" and stuff'-hall for me. Turkish nationalism tries to do some weird things and it would be highly amusing if somebody who spoke the language could effortpost on it. There was a docu on ARTE about turkish nationalism and what the kids learn at school. It will blow your mind. Did you know that the turks invented the wheel and basically every important invention was made by a turk or a person imitating what he saw turks doing? Alas, we don't have such dudes here, right? Keywords: Turanism, Sun Language Theory, Armenian Genocide, etc.
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Jul 1, 2015 10:33
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100 Years Ago Captain Henry Pedris of the Colombo Town Guard faces an FGCM for offences apparently committed while putting down the Sri Lanka Riots. A German prototype Fokker Eindecker shoots down a French scout plane, but that's far from the whole story. Louis Barthas gives us a funny story instead of a harrowing one for a change, German Empire control of Namibia is all but gone, and on Gallipoli, General Birdwood of the ANZACs wants to expand operations onto something called the "Anafarta Plain". It's going to be a long, childish summer.
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Jul 1, 2015 11:38
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Ensign Expendable posted:Here, I whipped what I had on the Tiger II specifically into a semi-decent shape: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4IOAl6nZp3kdXpDLUxsQXlMd2M/view?usp=sharing These takedowns never stop being great 
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Jul 1, 2015 12:05
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On the subject of Nazi tankchat, here is a short lecture by Jonathon Parshall (he of Shattered Sword fame) on why German tank production was so hosed compared the US and USSR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6xLMUifbxQ&t=1581s
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Jul 1, 2015 12:59
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Ensign Expendable posted:Here, I whipped what I had on the Tiger II specifically into a semi-decent shape: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4IOAl6nZp3kdXpDLUxsQXlMd2M/view?usp=sharing I want to turn this pdf. into a club and beat every wheraboo who's ever sperged out over the tiger series while shouting "THERE.ARE.MORE.FACTORS.TO.A.TANK.THEN.ARMOR.THICKNESS.AND.GUN.SIZE." Please don't stop posting Ensign Expendable.
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Jul 1, 2015 13:17
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Klaus88 posted:I want to turn this pdf. into a club and beat every wheraboo who's ever sperged out over the tiger series while shouting "THERE.ARE.MORE.FACTORS.TO.A.TANK.THEN.ARMOR.THICKNESS.AND.GUN.SIZE." But but but my kill/death ratio!!! Those Clean Wehrmacht Tank Aces can't all be lying, can they?
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Jul 1, 2015 13:42
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Xerxes17 posted:These takedowns never stop being great The man writes the best 'gently caress those overrated tanks' as well as 'these tanks are pretty cool, let me tell you why' stuff.
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Jul 1, 2015 13:43
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MikeCrotch posted:On the subject of Nazi tankchat, here is a short lecture by Jonathon Parshall (he of Shattered Sword fame) on why German tank production was so hosed compared the US and USSR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6xLMUifbxQ&t=1581s Thanks, that was a really good.
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Jul 1, 2015 14:08
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JaucheCharly posted:Turkish nationalism tries to do some weird things and it would be highly amusing if somebody who spoke the language could effortpost on it. There was a docu on ARTE about turkish nationalism and what the kids learn at school. It will blow your mind. Did you know that the turks invented the wheel and basically every important invention was made by a turk or a person imitating what he saw turks doing? Alas, we don't have such dudes here, right? Keywords: Turanism, Sun Language Theory, Armenian Genocide, etc. Koreans are just as bizarre about that stuff. Every Korean anything is superior Korea invented everything from the wheel to internet etc.
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Jul 1, 2015 14:42
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Cyrano4747 posted:Koreans are just as bizarre about that stuff. Every Korean anything is superior Korea invented everything from the wheel to internet etc. Did you know that the Chinese invented gunpowder but were too enlightened to use it for warfare until the Western barbarians co-opted it for violent means?* And that China has been a single continuous state and civilization for two thousand years? *Actual thing I saw in an editorial in a state-owned newspaper. Same author also once argued that capitalism is bad because of something Confucius said once.
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Jul 1, 2015 14:51
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I think pretty much almost every culture likes to put out spin and lean on things. Some seem to go the extra mile and it is kind of desperate. Sort of like a midlife crisis for nations really. Instead of buying a flash car, they insist they really did influence the creation of a important thing.
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Jul 1, 2015 15:15
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SeanBeansShako posted:I think pretty much almost every culture likes to put out spin and lean on things. Some seem to go the extra mile and it is kind of desperate. Sort of like a midlife crisis for nations really. And on occasion they're even right.
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Jul 1, 2015 15:16
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:And on occasion they're even right. They get a bit smug about it sometimes too. We've got Darwin on our (10 pound sterling) bank notes  .
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Jul 1, 2015 15:20
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Can anyone recommend any good audio books on the eastern front? I have a sudden interest.
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Jul 1, 2015 15:21
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SeanBeansShako posted:They get a bit smug about it sometimes too. We've got Darwin on our (10 pound sterling) bank notes Yeah but you couldn't build a dual-purpose medium-caliber gun worth a poo poo.  5"/38
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Jul 1, 2015 15:27
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The cultures in place at that time weren't even close to anything resembling what was indigenous at the country's founding and in most cases they weren't even ethnically close (Macedonia, Greece, and Rome say hi) . That's beyond even the most gratuitous of Chinese historical appropriations saying they've got 9,000 years or something of a continuous state. Technically, Australia invented photosynthesis if we're going by that logic.
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Jul 1, 2015 15:28
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Yeah but you couldn't build a dual-purpose medium-caliber gun worth a poo poo. They built an infantry rifle bad enough the Germans could improve it.
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Jul 1, 2015 15:30
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It wouldn't be British if it wasn't slightly rubbish now, would it?
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Jul 1, 2015 15:34
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So basically the British Empire collapsed because Brits couldn't be bothered to build anything that worked properly.
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Jul 1, 2015 15:38
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:So basically the British Empire collapsed because Brits couldn't be bothered to build anything that worked properly. Once you seize the market for all the tea and opiates well, why give a gently caress about anything else?
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Jul 1, 2015 15:42
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:So basically the British Empire collapsed because Brits couldn't be bothered to build anything that worked properly. I've been meaning to read some of the books that talk about there being a pretty severe decline in engineering both in the make things work and the design things well sense between the wars. You'd probably know about it off the top of your head.
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Jul 1, 2015 15:44
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Ensign Expendable posted:Here, I whipped what I had on the Tiger II specifically into a semi-decent shape: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4IOAl6nZp3kdXpDLUxsQXlMd2M/view?usp=sharing All propaganda of course. Everything the Soviets wrote was a lie because communisms. Now if you used impeccable German sources then maybe I would believe you, but they wouldn't say such obvious lies. That started to make my head hurt by the end
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Jul 1, 2015 16:51
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:So basically the British Empire collapsed because Brits couldn't be bothered to build anything that worked properly. britishrail.txt Seriously, you should all head over to the LOCOMOTIVE INSANITY thread in AI and check out Axeman Jim's posts on British Rail if you want to see the depths of British industrial ineptitude
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Jul 1, 2015 17:14
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Tomn posted:Did you know that the Chinese invented gunpowder but were too enlightened to use it for warfare until the Western barbarians co-opted it for violent means?* And that China has been a single continuous state and civilization for two thousand years? The stuff that Gf posted about the ancient korean empire that covers everything up to britain is super funny, but also recall the trip to the chinese museum with the inlaws that one of the guys posted in the old or new china.jpg threads. Chinar, 5000 years, last great civ standing.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:15
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Keep in mind that the 5000 years of history is something that is pretty much universally believed in China, whereas the great Korean empire poo poo was more like one dude's fan fiction.Cyrano4747 posted:Koreans are just as bizarre about that stuff. Every Korean anything is superior Korea invented everything from the wheel to internet etc. this sorta stuff seems frustratingly pervasive though
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Jul 1, 2015 17:19
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I'm kinda perplexed as to how 5000 years of history is worth attaching yourself to the guys who lost the Opium War.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:21
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