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moths posted:How would they consider it a mistake? The result is players buying tons GW plastic mans. Points have been replaced with MSRP. It is a game where you can potentially fill your entire deployment zone with miniatures, no matter what your opponent decides to do. It's the ultimate pay-to-win miniature game. It is far more glorious than I could even imagine.
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Jul 1, 2015 12:14
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So Wizards are lone units right? They also all have that mortal wounds Arcane Bolt spell. So if two wizards are on the table, isn't the guy who goes first just going to snipe the other instantly.
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Jul 1, 2015 12:19
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Deptfordx posted:So Wizards are lone units right? They also all have that mortal wounds Arcane Bolt spell. That's why you build a wall of infinite sized units to stand in the way of your wizard, duh. The system works.
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Jul 1, 2015 12:22
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Don't forget you can try to dispel it if your 2d6 is higher than their 2d6! BALANCE!
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Jul 1, 2015 12:24
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Its probably bullshit, but there is a thread on warseer about how GW is going to have the points per model in a subscription based online army builder app. Would explain the lack of pts cost in the warscrolls, the free rules and the "new and exciting ebooks" that they mentioned with AoS. E: and the £4 mill website. Its also so incredibly stupid that I'm inclined to believe that GW think that they'll actually be able to pull it of. Not a viking fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jul 1, 2015 13:06
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Thirsty Dog posted:That's cool. You get your unit of 12 dwarfs with hammers, your unit of 12 dwarfs with pickaxes, and your hero dwarf on his shield with some adorable dwarf buddies. I keep seeing this pop up and like, are you guys too timid to talk to your opponent (preferably you're playing with friends??) and be like "that's bullshit"?
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Jul 1, 2015 13:25
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I think the point is that it shouldn't be necessary. E: even if you weren't "timid", this isn't the sort of poo poo one should have to go through to play a loving pick-up game. I want to go "2400 pts?" and start deploying not spending 10 min arguing back and forth whether this or this is "OP" or whatever. Not a viking fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jul 1, 2015 13:28
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Not a viking posted:Its probably bullshit, but there is a thread on warseer about how GW is going to have the points per model in a subscription based online army builder app. Would explain the lack of pts cost in the warscrolls, the free rules and the "new and exciting ebooks" that they mentioned with AoS. Sounds more like someone hoping they copy Battlefront's Forces of War than a real thing that is happening Not a viking posted:I think the point is that it shouldn't be necessary. Also not everyone gets to play with friends, some people are limited to pick up games at stores inhabited by raging thunderfucks NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 13:31 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jul 1, 2015 13:28
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lilljonas posted:Just google warscrolls and you'll find some: haha oh my god, the keywords
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Jul 1, 2015 13:43
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There does seem to be some kind of balancing mechanic in play, not seen this mentioned much anywhere:quote:Set-Up: ...obviously this almost relies on the person you're playing not being a total cock, which plays nicely into the "we don't make tournament games, we make games for fun" spiel from GW. I am actually interested enough to take a nose at it now I think. ijyt posted:I keep seeing this pop up and like, are you guys too timid to talk to your opponent (preferably you're playing with friends??) and be like "that's bullshit"? ...and this.
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Jul 1, 2015 13:53
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NTRabbit posted:Sounds more like someone hoping they copy Battlefront's Forces of War than a real thing that is happening I was also wondering the same thing as ijyt For a certain amount of time, if you have moved to a new city or don't have any space at home then yes I can see that you would need to play pick up games. But gently caress me it's TYOL 2015! I remember trying to find Warhams friends on a small island back in the late 90s utter dogshit full of smelly grogs but when I last moved somewhere I didn't know anyone I used the *gasp* internet to find local groups. Some groups were lovely but finally one non-lovely one was found and we, as a group, kept adding people and anytime a game store got full of grogs we found a different venue. How is it that in this day and age people think the only option is pick up games in stores full of dickheads? What is wrong with these people that they can't form their own groups of people with similar ideas of how to play a game and work from that base group?
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Jul 1, 2015 13:56
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Thirsty Dog posted:That's cool. You get your unit of 12 dwarfs with hammers, your unit of 12 dwarfs with pickaxes, and your hero dwarf on his shield with some adorable dwarf buddies. Bets on that all the core units are mostly identical, stats wise, they just have a few variables pushed around ala 4E D&D. It's still going to come down to who can roll more dice. In Butt of Sigbutt, it's clear that instead of the grognard rules lawyer being that person, it will instead be the lovely manchild with deep pockets.
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Jul 1, 2015 14:01
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Yeah, that's the thing. Miniatures games depend hugely on network externalities, among other things an active community to play with. One of the big things game stores want to do is to build communities to sell products to, which is the entire reason so many of them have play venues. If the playerbase will be nothing but "people you have active, extended conversations with before every single game," which is another way of saying "just your small circle of friends you trust," there's no community building going on, the base will splinter into dozens of smaller groups with their own metas and assumptions and get almost no new players aboard except for the random people who might pick the set up with their friend and play it once or twice before deciding whether an unstructured game like this even functions for them at all. This was the state of the Warham Fantasy meta in my circles for just a couple of years, and it was enough to basically kill the game and its sales almost entirely. Age of Sigmar seems to deliberately want this situation. It actively courts it. And that's the big problem right there: no structure means no organized play. One of the big advantages of having a strict enforcable structure to a game like this is being able to organize events with it, with lots of players playing on a theoretically equal (but at the very least previously agreed-to) playing field. No structure means no easy organized play, which means no gamestore events without a TON of work from the organizers which isn't worth it compared to just selling a minis game that doesn't force a community organizer to do all that work for it. No gamestore events means fewer newbies seeing the game or trying it out first and then buying, a source of custom Age of Sigmar is presumably relying on to make up for lost veterans, and no events also means people will be less invested in keeping the game going by buying new units and trying them out with other people. And even if there are events, with basically no sop thrown to balancing this thing the game has abandoned fair play as a design conceit, something that only works if you're a very good game designer with a specific goal in mind - i.e. not GW. Nothing about this makes the game the easy sell it's intended to be. The thing that is clearly intended to make it easy for newbies to pick the game up and play makes it practically impossible to arrange that event actually happening on a regular basis. I've seen multiple FLGS workers and owners talk about this, and talked with a few myself. No one really knows how the hell to sell this stupid poo poo to anyone, and GW is providing no tools or aid whatsoever. This game will either die immediately, or else sell a bunch in July as people pick it up and then die within months.
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Jul 1, 2015 14:02
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It's basically the polar opposite of X Wang
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Jul 1, 2015 14:10
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That the balancing factor is number of models and not something like wounds just makes this entire thing even more laughable. The 30 bloodthirsters vs 30 skeletons example is obviously a bit over the top, but 30 derpcast immortals or whatever the elite unit in your list is will obviously be vastly better than 30 skaven slaves, yet it would be treated as a completely balanced battle. I mean, making it wounds would still be retarded, but not quite as retarded as it is right now.
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Jul 1, 2015 14:12
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I was fully prepared for this thing to suck but hahaha I'm still stunned. There's gotta be something that's missing. This is just amazing
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Jul 1, 2015 14:17
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Nebalebadingdong posted:I was fully prepared for this thing to suck but hahaha I'm still stunned. There's gotta be something that's missing. This is just amazing It's like someone made a FB-related wish, but they did it on a cursed monkey paw, and this is the result.
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Jul 1, 2015 14:21
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wizardstick posted:I was also wondering the same thing as ijyt Well, I'd need about an hour's drive including a ferry (which would cost me 5$ each way in addition to gas) just to get to the closest group of WH players. They're a pretty grognardy group, but I'm pretty sure they're about the only one within a few hours drive from me. If I want to get to an actual hobby shop, the closest place is 8 hours drive away.
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Jul 1, 2015 14:22
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Another issue is without points values how can you know if two forces are balanced against each other when you are trying to balance a scenario? It makes organising balanced games really hard as there are no tools to guide you in doing so.
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Jul 1, 2015 14:22
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Get that GW PR poo poo out of here. The whole point of using a shared ruleset is so that you don't have to have conversations about how to play the game. It's supposed to be set out in the rules. That's what they're for.
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Jul 1, 2015 14:27
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Aside from the "talk it over with your group argument", this isn't a "storm of magic, yes/no" kind of deal. You're asking every gaming group to agree on all the points cost of every miniature, magic item and ability to try and balance the game. 'I think my dwarf handguns are worth 12 pts" "But their armor piercing is so good vs my chaos knights! I think they should be 20 pts" "My goblins don't give a poo poo, you can take them for 6 pts for all I care as long as your stone throwers cost 250 pt base"
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Jul 1, 2015 14:31
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Frankly, even if you had the most logical and agreeable group that could always come to a fair decision in the end, it's just offloading the actual work of making a good match-up of even armies onto the players.
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Jul 1, 2015 14:36
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Just read another rumour suggesting all the Sigmar stuff is going to be in 35mm scale, making it incompatible with other fantasy miniature lines, including their own, which is why all the WHFB stuff is being discontinued once the moulds wear out even though they're getting warpscrolls
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Jul 1, 2015 14:39
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NTRabbit posted:Just read another rumour suggesting all the Sigmar stuff is going to be in 35mm scale, making it incompatible with other fantasy miniature lines, including their own, which is why all the WHFB stuff is being discontinued once the moulds wear out even though they're getting warpscrolls I think it was confirmed the khorne guys are the same scale as the rest of fantasy stuff, sigmarines are just bigger because they're tall-fat freaks
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Jul 1, 2015 14:42
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See any other company would hear people talking about incredibly damaging rumors like "they are trying discontinue all their products by making the new stuff incompatible, better not buy anything from them" and do some kind of PR to stamp that poo poo out but GW is too smart for that. I will be incredibly surprised if anyone is playing this game in three months. I would say it's so bad it's DOA but GW fans have a lot of tolerance for lovely game design. Even if there's some kind of game saving rules in the starter box that makes it all work letting the lovely White Dwarf and WARSCROLL stuff dominate the news the week before release is incredibly stupid.
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Jul 1, 2015 15:01
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My favorite part of this is that theres a TOTAL WAR: Warhammer game coming out, set in the Warhammer Fantasy universe. The one that just blew up and went away forever. They were literally on the cusp of getting a video game that might have pulled in more people to the tabletop game- the mass, ranked battles tabletop game. Nope. Sigmarines.
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Jul 1, 2015 15:07
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This entire thing is some sort of experiment to see how poorly they can manage a product and see if people still buy it. Everything about it is bad unless I guess you wanted to see Blood Angels in a SORTA Fantasy Environment.
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Jul 1, 2015 15:10
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counterspin posted:Get that GW PR poo poo out of here. The whole point of using a shared ruleset is so that you don't have to have conversations about how to play the game. It's supposed to be set out in the rules. That's what they're for. Yeah I see nothing beer and pretzels about this. When I get together to game with friends for a few hours all we should be talking about is preparing dinner and arguing yet again about pasta preferences. lilljonas posted:Just google warscrolls and you'll find some: Those hammer throwing bros from super Mario 
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Jul 1, 2015 15:17
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ijyt posted:I keep seeing this pop up and like, are you guys too timid to talk to your opponent (preferably you're playing with friends??) and be like "that's bullshit"? Oh, make no mistake, the only GW product I'm likely to play with friends is Epic. Because we actually like Good Games with Good Rules. My group is focused mostly on boardgames where you live or die on the quality and clarity of the rules, and balance is a legit thing. We're friends but that doesn't mean we don't see the opponent as a challenge to be beaten. The rules are there to facilitate a contest. Having to bargain with your opponent over something as core as what models you're allowed to bring and how many without any defining framework beyond the vaguest of groupings is a loving dumb situation. Even the grognards who play Tomorrow's War and games of that ilk understand that there has to be some sort of balancing factor, even if it's just the scenario and you're not intended to "win".
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Jul 1, 2015 15:21
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I would like to thank GW for these war scrolls. It could be argued taking armies by model could somewhat be balanced Ala Mordaheim (where it wasn't really) but in the very scrolls given we see that according to rules an army of kitty cat riding Lord champions is way worse then twice that number of KnorNE Poop Shovels. 6 Demigod lords gives some really nice bonuses vs 12 Poopsockers.
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Jul 1, 2015 15:28
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I can't help but think war scrolls and the abstract method of calculating balance for this game is but an elaborate performance art of modern algebraic set theory. Gotta say I'm disappointed in war scrolls too. You'd think they would sell them for $5 each on faux parchment paper.
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Jul 1, 2015 15:45
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Waitwaitwait. What if we actually use MSRP as the new points system? They can't loving stop us from using points. So like, I bring a $500 army, you bring a $500 army. *cue the distant sound of millions of ratmen being thrown into the trash*
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Jul 1, 2015 15:54
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This is supposed to take the Warhammer: My Dinner With Sigmar
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Jul 1, 2015 15:57
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Ignite Memories posted:So like, I bring a $500 army, you bring a $500 army. But what if we want to play with more than 10 minis a side?
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Jul 1, 2015 15:59
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Ignite Memories posted:Waitwaitwait. No, wait. Balance your force using a literal balance. Old grogs with metal will be forced to upgrade to finecast!
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Jul 1, 2015 16:00
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Ronnie Renton, master troll
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Jul 1, 2015 16:15
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NTRabbit posted:But what if we want to play with more than 10 minis a side? Ho ho!
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Jul 1, 2015 16:20
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NTRabbit posted:But what if we want to play with more than 10 minis a side? 
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Jul 1, 2015 16:21
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Realtalk I don't even play WHFB and I'm now interested in Kings of War.
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Jul 1, 2015 16:40
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The OP need a bit of work, but there is a Mantic thread
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Jul 1, 2015 16:50
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