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Mel Mudkiper posted:I cannot believe I am replying to this thread but you are wildly mischaracterizing her argument in that video, and you are not even logically consistent in your summary of it. You claim she says the games "purpose" is to kill prostitutes and then a sentence later downgrade it to saying she says the game "encourages" it. Hmmm, disagree. The whole point of the game is to hide/sneak around from the NPCS (not ignore) and the game encourages the player never to use violence on the stripper NPCS and will penalize the player for doing so. The fact that CAN a player is a different matter. The player is never suppose to interact with the NPCs with violence except for the target/aggressive bodyguards. Every single other npc is there to provide challenge/obstacle/risk and background information through listening in on conversations. That particular section is also a very small part of the overall game that is a optional route to take. Which really brings up the question: Since something is made possible in the game world but is not encouraged but the player does it any way is that the fault of the developers or the player?
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Jul 1, 2015 17:24
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The gently caress? I thought Gamergate was about the obese purple haired chick loving her way up the video game developer hierarchy. Now there's all these essay-posts analysing the role of women in society and going on like this is some kind of historical watershed event on par with civil rights movements or some poo poo. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 1, 2015 17:25
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What is Gamer?Totalizator posted:Because gaming journalists hate their audience and have a long track record of calling them every name under the sun, entitled and sexist being the most common. Their reactions on twitter when gamergate broke out reinforce that. 2) Again, who do you think the author is talking about when she specifies "obtuse shitslingers, these wailing hyper-consumers, these childish internet-arguers?" These appear to be defining traits of her subject. In fact... Obdicut posted:I still don't know what a gamer is. computer parts posted:Anyone who says they are a gamer without being asked. Who What Now posted:Anyone for whom playing video games is their dominant/sole defining personality trait. Here's a related question that might help: What do advertisers think a gamer is? What are their assumptions? What non-game companies tried to advertise in-game?                (yeah I know wtf is going on with those seashells?)
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Jul 1, 2015 17:26
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That elf is beach body ready.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:27
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Nicomo posted:The gently caress? I thought Gamergate was about the obese purple haired chick loving her way up the video game developer hierarchy. Now there's all these essay-posts analysing the role of women in society and going on like this is some kind of historical watershed event on par with civil rights movements or some poo poo. Actually it's about
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Jul 1, 2015 17:30
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BexGu posted:Hmmm, disagree. The whole point of the game is to hide/sneak around from the NPCS (not ignore) and the game encourages the player never to use violence on the stripper NPCS and will penalize the player for doing so. The fact that CAN a player is a different matter. The player is never suppose to interact with the NPCs with violence except for the target/aggressive bodyguards. Every single other npc is there to provide challenge/obstacle/risk and background information through listening in on conversations. That particular section is also a very small part of the overall game that is a optional route to take. You disagree with her and then repeat her argument Whether or not you are "supposed to" in the context of the ideal playthrough doesn't change that the only two potential interactions are to ignore them or to cause violence, which both objectify them. BexGu posted:Which really brings up the question: Since something is made possible in the game world but is not encouraged but the player does it any way is that the fault of the developers or the player? When the only deviation from the standard gameplay is violence, yes.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:30
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Exmond posted:So going back to the hitman thing, do you think she skewed the facts to her advantage to show hitman as a very creepy game? Are you not reading my posts or something? I haven't seen the video. Also, having played Hitman, it's a creepy game in general. quote:Going through the Tropes vs Woman videos thats one thing that kind of bugs me is how the game is represented to promote her argument. Again, I haven't seen it, but isn't it likely that she's pointing out problematic parts of the game to show patterns that are larger than the game, rather than focusing on giving the game a specific creepy rating? Nicomo posted:The gently caress? I thought Gamergate was about the obese purple haired chick loving her way up the video game developer hierarchy. Now there's all these essay-posts analysing the role of women in society and going on like this is some kind of historical watershed event on par with civil rights movements or some poo poo. Thank you for bringing it back to the slut-shaming beginning, to help those who keep saying it's about ethics in video game journalism see a different perspective. BexGu posted:Hmmm, disagree. The whole point of the game is to hide/sneak around from the NPCS (not ignore) and the game encourages the player never to use violence on the stripper NPCS and will penalize the player for doing so. The fact that CAN a player is a different matter. The player is never suppose to interact with the NPCs with violence except for the target/aggressive bodyguards. Every single other npc is there to provide challenge/obstacle/risk and background information through listening in on conversations. That particular section is also a very small part of the overall game that is a optional route to take. You actually agreed with him, you just treaded 'sneak around' and 'ignore' as though they're substantially different, when clearly they're not in the context. In addition, though you're not 'supposed' to, you can kill a huge number of NPCs in Hitman and not fail or suffer any consequences at all from it; your character remains the same if he only kills his targets or if he murders the gently caress out of everyone.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:32
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Furthermore, if the inclusion of a strip club is so necessary to the proposed realism of the setting, the question should then be asked why the female bodies in the club are so uniformly idealized. If you wanted to create a "realistic" and "gritty" urban setting it makes no sense for literally every stripper to be uniformly super-model beautiful. Obdicut posted:Again, I haven't seen it, but isn't it likely that she's pointing out problematic parts of the game to show patterns that are larger than the game, rather than focusing on giving the game a specific creepy rating? Thats exactly what she is doing and it seems willful ignorance that people seem to continue to ignore it. She has stated before that "wider" context as an argument/defense is irrelevant because she analyzing tropes as per the title of the series. It doesn't matter if every gritty crime game has a good narrative reason for a strip club level as much as it does that every gritty crime game has a strip club level
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Jul 1, 2015 17:38
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Furthermore, if the inclusion of a strip club is so necessary to the proposed realism of the setting, the question should then be asked why the female bodies in the club are so uniformly idealized. If you wanted to create a "realistic" and "gritty" urban setting it makes no sense for literally every stripper to be uniformly super-model beautiful. I don't think that every gritty crime game has a strip club level. For example, L.A. Noire.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:40
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If you think video games can either cause or solve any major social issues, you're an idiot.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:41
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Powercrazy posted:I don't think that every gritty crime game has a strip club level. For example, L.A. Noire. OK, would you mind tallying up a statistical analysis on the presence of strip clubs in games by genre, and guess what, you don't even have to report back when you're done!
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Jul 1, 2015 17:41
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Maxwell Adams posted:If you think video games can either cause or solve any major social issues, you're an idiot. No but they can be indicative of and an influencing factor of them.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:43
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Maxwell Adams posted:If you think video games can either cause or solve any major social issues, you're an idiot. Its a good thing literally no one has said this ever
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Jul 1, 2015 17:43
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self identified gamers
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Jul 1, 2015 17:44
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Still in love with the hilarity of people "following the money" and arriving at a group of people who are making a mediocre programmer's salary at absolute best. Especially when there's a whole abyss of idiot bullshit in the industry that's way, way worse and involves way, way more money.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:45
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Lyesh posted:Still in love with the hilarity of people "following the money" and arriving at a group of people who are making a mediocre programmer's salary at absolute best. Especially when there's a whole abyss of idiot bullshit in the industry that's way, way worse and involves way, way more money. Hey, that salary looks pretty good compared to the average basement-dwelling gater's part-time job at Wendy's.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:47
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Effectronica posted:OK, would you mind tallying up a statistical analysis on the presence of strip clubs in games by genre, and guess what, you don't even have to report back when you're done! Why? Is there some quota of "problematic" games that should be reached? Is there a limited number of games that can be created that we need to ensure the optimal balance of problematic vs non-problematic? These are all rhetorical questions, because the answer is, if you want games that don't contain things you disagree with, they already exist. Why don't you talk about them and ignore the ones you don't like?
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Jul 1, 2015 17:47
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Powercrazy posted:Why? Is there some quota of "problematic" games that should be reached? Is there a limited number of games that can be created that we need to ensure the optimal balance of problematic vs non-problematic? Knowledge is good, and, hell, if you're opposed to knowing things, there's only one way out. 
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Jul 1, 2015 17:49
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Powercrazy posted:Why? Is there some quota of "problematic" games that should be reached? Is there a limited number of games that can be created that we need to ensure the optimal balance of problematic vs non-problematic? Are people not allowed to criticize things they don't like?
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Jul 1, 2015 17:49
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Powercrazy posted:These are all rhetorical questions, because the answer is, if you want games that don't contain things you disagree with, they already exist. Why don't you talk about them and ignore the ones you don't like? Because the debate is about how the most advertised and top-selling games seems to consistently hold ongoing and unquestioned tropes that are implicitly misogynistic. Jesus do you actually watch the videos or indifferently skim until you can find something to misinterpret and grow furious over AKA the thing you accuse her of doing
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Jul 1, 2015 17:49
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Powercrazy posted:Why? Is there some quota of "problematic" games that should be reached? Is there a limited number of games that can be created that we need to ensure the optimal balance of problematic vs non-problematic? Do you think that having a strip club level is pretty common in games, even non gritty crime drama games? quote:These are all rhetorical questions, because the answer is, if you want games that don't contain things you disagree with, they already exist. Why don't you talk about them and ignore the ones you don't like? The phraseology you have to use--'things you disagree with''--is very weird. Is that just to avoid saying 'sexism'?
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Jul 1, 2015 17:50
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Obdicut posted:Thank you for bringing it back to the slut-shaming beginning, to help those who keep saying it's about ethics in video game journalism see a different perspective. You're welcome. Let the slut-shaming commence! I for one vote for more bare breasts to be featured in our video games. Even GTA V was lacking if I'm honest.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:50
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Nicomo posted:You're welcome. Let the slut-shaming commence! You already done commenced it. quote:I for one vote for more bare breasts to be featured in our video games. Even GTA V was lacking if I'm honest. In the age of unlimited porn on the internet, that's just sad, man.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:51
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Mel Mudkiper posted:You disagree with her and then repeat her argument By that logic every single non-combat NPC (male/female/animal) has been objectified. It doesn't mean anything.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:52
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BexGu posted:By that logic every single non-combat NPC (male/female/animal) has been objectified. It doesn't mean anything. If you think a normal clothed male in a generic setting NPC and a beautiful half-naked female NPC in a setting explicitly designed to focus on her as a sexual object exist in the same social and political context you are being willfully dense
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Jul 1, 2015 17:53
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BexGu posted:By that logic every single non-combat NPC (male/female/animal) has been objectified. It doesn't mean anything. Are the other non-combat PCs standing around wearing almost nothing?
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Jul 1, 2015 17:53
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Obdicut posted:In the age of unlimited porn on the internet, that's just sad, man. It's hard to watch porn and play a game at the same time. Much easier to simply integrate it into the game itself.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:54
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Nicomo posted:It's hard to watch porn and play a game at the same time. Much easier to simply integrate it into the game itself. You don't have a dual monitor setup? You're almost as much of a fake gamer as Anita Sarkeesian.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:56
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Mel Mudkiper posted:If you think a normal clothed male in a generic setting NPC and a beautiful half-naked female NPC in a setting explicitly designed to focus on her as a sexual object exist in the same social and political context you are being willfully dense https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heIH9vfwKBM (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 1, 2015 17:56
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Nicomo posted:It's hard to watch porn and play a game at the same time. Much easier to simply integrate it into the game itself. Your wit and edginess is giving me the vapors.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:56
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Ddraig posted:You don't have a dual monitor setup? You're almost as much of a fake gamer as Anita Sarkeesian. Even with dual monitor, it's just too distracting to concentrate on both. Just looked up that women, she is a 'feminist media critic'. How does such a title even exist?
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Jul 1, 2015 18:03
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Obdicut posted:Are you not reading my posts or something? I haven't seen the video. Also, having played Hitman, it's a creepy game in general. So i agree that hitman has creepy parts in it (Assassin nuns im looking at you). Now I don't know how to argue this since you haven't seen the video and I don't know if you have played the game. But the footage anita shows is something you would have to go out of the way to do and is penalized in the game. So she shows parts of the game that a lot of people wouldn't even see, the game doesn't encourage you to do and might be argued that is due to the game engine and the game having strippers in it and not due to some developer/player misogyny. She then puts this over a voice over that makes the player sound like some kind of sexual deviant. I don't think its accurately showing a problem part of the game, especially when there are other examples (Assassin nuns...) or at the very least people who have played the game should be able to point out some flaws in that footage
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Jul 1, 2015 18:03
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:That elf is beach body ready. Nicomo posted:The gently caress? I thought Gamergate was about the obese purple haired chick loving her way up the video game developer hierarchy. Now there's all these essay-posts analysing the role of women in society and going on like this is some kind of historical watershed event on par with civil rights movements or some poo poo. Actually, could you first tell us why you think gamergate "was about the obese purple haired chick loving her way up the video game developer hierarchy" in the first place. Why is that your impression of it? Mel Mudkiper posted:I cannot believe I am replying to this thread but you are wildly mischaracterizing her argument in that video, and you are not even logically consistent in your summary of it. You claim she says the games "purpose" is to kill prostitutes and then a sentence later downgrade it to saying she says the game "encourages" it. Exmond posted:So going back to the hitman thing, do you think she skewed the facts to her advantage to show hitman as a very creepy game? Going through the Tropes vs Woman videos thats one thing that kind of bugs me is how the game is represented to promote her argument. Do you think "gamers" or the general audience would of been affected as much if the hitman footage wasn't shown? BexGu posted:Hmmm, disagree. The whole point of the game is to hide/sneak around from the NPCS (not ignore) and the game encourages the player never to use violence on the stripper NPCS and will penalize the player for doing so. The fact that CAN a player is a different matter. The player is never suppose to interact with the NPCs with violence except for the target/aggressive bodyguards. Every single other npc is there to provide challenge/obstacle/risk and background information through listening in on conversations. That particular section is also a very small part of the overall game that is a optional route to take. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfbnSIpFm9I&t=372s (That's Quite The Silent Assassin) I do agree that's an interesting question though. Like the Tribes developers wouldn't really be responsible for creating skiing in the first game. And Rockstar wouldn't really be responsible (well except to the ratings boards as per the on-disc policy) for the hot coffee content that they hid away and did not intend to be found. On the other hand games that are sandboxy playgrounds do intend and code for a lot of different possibilities, including and especially a bunch of wanton civilian or non-combatant murder. In these specific cases it sounds like they're not NPCs with flavor and worldbuilding background to tell, or faction leaders to appease, or shopkeepers with stuff to sell, they are just there to be avoided completely or subdued/killed? And in this case they're dressed skimpily because strippers? That sounds like it's part of her objection. computer parts posted:self identified gamers Dreylad posted:
Assepoester fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Jul 1, 2015 |
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Jul 1, 2015 18:03
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Cardboard Box A posted:Here's a related question that might help: Democrats, Black people? British women. Cyborgs. Nicholas Cage fans. Gay men. People who haven't discovered that there's porn on the Internet and so might be naive enough to watch the Sci-fi channel. Swedes? Cheaters. Africans. Domitrixes (Dominatrii?), submissive men. Sword wielding stroke victims? People who think Geiger is too monotone. Perverts. Gun wielding stroke victims. (yeah I know wtf is going on with those seashells?)Anime fans, crustacean fetishists. So we now have a complete picture of Gamers as African, crab loving, stroke victims. What point do you think this makes?
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Jul 1, 2015 18:04
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Zombywuf posted:Not really sure what you're trying to get at with these, but let's see if we can identify some demographics: The point your post made is that you're incapable of writing like a normal human being, so I guess the point is that the target audience is not you, because they don't take people as defective as you in the Royal Navy.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:06
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Cardboard Box A posted:Please do catch up. That was the original controversy that sparked everything off, that the internet went nuts over. I read a bit about that and assumed it had blown over. I had no idea it had morphed this far into an depth intellectual discussion about the place of women in video games. Perhaps I'll read back to see what exactly the big deal is.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:09
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fatherboxx posted:
This is actually just the current propagandist narrative. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cULlU1Lbrcw
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Jul 1, 2015 18:12
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afeelgoodpoop posted:This is actually just the current propagandist narrative. Yes, that is indeed a literal propaganda video meant to demonize people who aren't pro-GamerGate. Great job?
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Jul 1, 2015 18:13
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afeelgoodpoop posted:This is actually just the current propagandist narrative. Do you think anyone is actually convinced by biased youtubes that nobody is going to watch? This is the exact style of argumentation that 9/11 conspiracy theorists tried on these forums for years. Or is your point that this is currently what the conspiracy theory is?
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Jul 1, 2015 18:14
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I'm glad I am not the only one growing exhausted by random youtube rants from dudes on the internet being cited as evidence
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Jul 1, 2015 18:15
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