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Dapper_Swindler posted:I know some of antis (josh and few others) got pissed because it got reviewed well and sold well. Was it polygon that got spammed? it wouldnt surprisme me if they got spamed, I somehow doubt that they got mad that a video game was good and people purchased it, despite disagreeing with the portrayal of women in it (a game where the protagonist is the creator's supreme fetish)
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Jul 3, 2015 00:34
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Slanderer posted:I somehow doubt that they got mad that a video game was good and people purchased it, despite disagreeing with the portrayal of women in a game where the protagonist is the creator's supreme fetish I always enjoyed how some people tried to argue that Bayonetta is an example of a woman who takes charge of her sexuality and is empowered despite the fact she is written and designed by a group of men.
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Jul 3, 2015 00:35
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Bushido Brown posted:How would they make people shut up? They don't own the spaces, and if they do, they're entitled to make people shut up. They can choose who they want to interact with. That's the whole free association thing. I almost forgot about this, but I need to turn in afterwards so any further questions I miss I assure you are due to that. I didn't say they were successful, certainly not in the long run, but I do believe they tried. There was, again, all of that discussion-quashing- which was ultimately a really bad idea. Those who did the quashing may have been entitled to do so, technically had the right and liberty- but that doesn't make it the right choice. I know a lot of people get hung up on the definition of censorship, believing it can only be done by the government- but I can't say why suppressing 'unacceptable' things is only possible by that agency. I don't care to get bogged down in that debate though, personally. As for what the people are about? Varies. We've gone over Gamergaters already, they run the gambit from being just the sort of foolish folks everyone says they are to being any number of people with valid points and worthwhile goals.
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Jul 3, 2015 00:37
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The Snark posted:to being any number of people with valid points and worthwhile goals. still calling shenanigans on this one
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Jul 3, 2015 00:38
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Mel Mudkiper posted:yup http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/13/6957677/bayonetta-2-review-wii-u wow, it was gies. and yeah the review is kinda lovely. alot of his negatives of the game is just gies bitching and getting offended because bayonnetta is sexualized character( and a pretty strong character at that). I have read much worse reviews and i dont agree with the spamming of the site but gies is an awful reviewer in general and polygon probably gave him it to review because they knew he would generate clicks.
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Jul 3, 2015 00:38
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Slanderer posted:I somehow doubt that they got mad that a video game was good and people purchased it, despite disagreeing with the portrayal of women in it (a game where the protagonist is the creator's supreme fetish) https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/521423486170849281 https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/521567993537376257 https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/521434981772431362 yeah not out right attack, but he is passive aggressive about how the reviews should swing.
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Jul 3, 2015 00:40
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Mel Mudkiper posted:yup http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/13/6957677/bayonetta-2-review-wii-u IGN has been smart enough not to attack them, whereas Polygon couldn't resist getting in on the whole Gamers Are Dead thing. Really, that was a huge boon to IGN and the like. A wonderful distraction. Before GamerGate the corruption of the like had been regularly grumbled about and mocked. Doritopope, so on. The Snark fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Jul 3, 2015 |
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Jul 3, 2015 00:40
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400 posts overnight! I'll never get caught up. Just tell me where we are in the lifecycle of the thread. Are we at the high point where we have interesting discussion about the game industry and Obdicut calmly tells the deranged to stop projecting, or are we at low point where gg weirdos freak out and Efftronica wishes violence upon them? Mel Mudkiper posted:I always enjoyed how some people tried to argue that Bayonetta is an example of a woman who takes charge of her sexuality and is empowered despite the fact she is written and designed by a group of men. Mari Shimazaki is not a man's name. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 3, 2015 00:41
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The Snark posted:IGN has been smart enough not to attack them, whereas Polygon couldn't resist getting in on the whole Gamers Are Dead thing. Really, that was a huge boon to IGN and the like. A wonderful distraction. Before GamerGate the corruption of the like had been regularly grumbled about and mocked Doritopope, so on. Right but my point is, if GamerGate was actually concerned about ethics and not an amorphous group of children angry they are not respected and bowed to, why would they ignore the corrupt institution to go after the one that insulted them?
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Jul 3, 2015 00:42
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Right but my point is, if GamerGate was actually concerned about ethics and not an amorphous group of children angry they are not respected and bowed to, why would they ignore the corrupt institution to go after the one that insulted them? IGN is corrupt, why?
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Jul 3, 2015 00:44
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Let us English posted:Mari Shimazaki is not a man's name. Fair enough, although I would still be interested in how much her sexuality was a factor of Mari's design versus Kamiya and other designers involvement.
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Jul 3, 2015 00:45
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The Snark posted:IGN has been smart enough not to attack them, whereas Polygon couldn't resist getting in on the whole Gamers Are Dead thing. Really, that was a huge boon to IGN and the like. A wonderful distraction. Before GamerGate the corruption of the like had been regularly grumbled about and mocked. Doritopope, so on. yeah. IGN took the high road and pretty much ignored all the bullshit and just reviewed/previewed stuff. polygon is where all the failures and rejects go to pretend that they are "real" art critics. that or kotaku.
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Jul 3, 2015 00:45
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Right but my point is, if GamerGate was actually concerned about ethics and not an amorphous group of children angry they are not respected and bowed to, why would they ignore the corrupt institution to go after the one that insulted them? Because they're not perfect and people tend to prioritize the enemies that are attacking them. Also Arthur 'Boop' Geis really does seem to revel in being painfully obnoxious, from this to insisting that fantasy Poland should have had a lot more people of color in it. Also, far more rewarding to hate people than problems and boy oh boy is Gies hateable. Anyone have any painfully stupid quotes from an IGN rep?
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Jul 3, 2015 00:47
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Let us English posted:IGN is corrupt, why? http://www.ign.com/games/battlefield-4/ps4-161398 http://www.ign.com/games/assassins-creed-unity/ps4-20015166 two famously broken games from noted advertisers giving praising reviews and scores to start plus the demonstrated rating inflation system they have
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Jul 3, 2015 00:48
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Fair enough, although I would still be interested in how much her sexuality was a factor of Mari's design versus Kamiya and other designers involvement. What's come out about the development is that she was tasked to make Bayonetta appealing to women without losing the hypersexuality Kamiya wanted . Which is somewhat more complex than saying Bayonetta is an empowering character.
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Jul 3, 2015 00:49
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Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah. IGN took the high road and pretty much ignored all the bullshit and just reviewed/previewed stuff. polygon is where all the failures and rejects go to pretend that they are "real" art critics. that or kotaku. why does any of that matter if your concern is corruption? Target the largest most corrupt organization, not the one that has people that annoy you. The Snark posted:Also Arthur 'Boop' Geis really does seem to revel in being painfully obnoxious, from this to insisting that fantasy Poland should have had a lot more people of color in it. I am still not sure why a fantasy world with dragons is more plausible than a fantasy world with black people
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Jul 3, 2015 00:50
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Fair enough, although I would still be interested in how much her sexuality was a factor of Mari's design versus Kamiya and other designers involvement. She intentionally designed a sexy character. http://xbox360.gamespy.com/xbox-360/bayonetta/1013849p1.html Now, I think that in the aggregate there's a huge problem with female character design, but I think this thread has stumbled over specifics. Much like games have a diversity problem that should be solved, but Witcher 3 is not an appropriate game to represent that issue, games also have a objectification issue but Bayonetta is not emblematic of it. Mel Mudkiper posted:http://www.ign.com/games/battlefield-4/ps4-161398 There's zero talk between editorial and sales at IGN. I would know because I worked there. The rating inflation is a result of rabid fans not IGN. One only look at Gerstmann's 8.8 score of Twilight Princess to see how fans reaction effectively enforces the 7-9 scale. Let us English fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Jul 3, 2015 |
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Jul 3, 2015 00:51
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Effectronica posted:What's come out about the development is that she was tasked to make Bayonetta appealing to women without losing the hypersexuality Kamiya wanted . Which is somewhat more complex than saying Bayonetta is an empowering character. Yeah, Kamiya doesn't have the best track record of respectful female characters so I find myself hard pressed to give him the benefit of the doubt Let us English posted:There's zero talk between editorial and sales at IGN. I would know because I worked there. The rating inflation is a result of rabid fans not IGN. One only look at Gerstmann's 8.8 score of Twilight Princess to see how fans reaction effectively enforces the 7-9 scale. Your proof of them not having questionable journalistic ethics is an example of them artificially inflating scores to make hardcore fans happy? Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Jul 3, 2015 |
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Jul 3, 2015 00:52
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Yeah, Kamiya doesn't have the best track record of respectful female characters so I find myself hard pressed to give him the benefit of the doubt No, the common understanding of the scores meaning has been changed by fan reactions over the years. Everyone hates the 7-9 scale but knows that giving a six will be read as giving the game a failing grade. You can explain to the audience, "Well in our scale a 6 means 'good with flaws'" and the readers will not listen. So you score games in accordance with the norms people understand. 1UP tried to avoid the whole issue by using a letter grade system until Metacritic hosed it up by deciding that F meant 0% and D mean 20%. So Duke Nukem's F score gets turned into forum rant about "THEY GAVE A FUNCTIONAL GAME A ZERO!"
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Jul 3, 2015 00:58
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Mel Mudkiper posted:why does any of that matter if your concern is corruption? Target the largest most corrupt organization, not the one that has people that annoy you. But there are black people, aren't there? Zerrikanians were they? They're just not commonly in the area where the game takes place, as one might expect of a world lacking in the commonplace air-travel we have come to enjoy in the modern world. Does it make sense to have the creators change the already-created world and lore to have more black people around? Does the game not touch upon race and racial differences? Would the problem have been solved or exacerbated by making elves black, I wonder. E: I have no idea why I am still awake. Need not answer anything here, not that anyone ever did. I'll see it sometime tomorrow in any case.
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Jul 3, 2015 01:00
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To add to the IGN talk, IGN is one of the outlets that traffics occasionally in getting exclusives to ensure they have the first review. The benefit to the outlet is that they get to be the only people talking about the game for a period of a day or a couple of days, driving traffic to their site before anyone else is allowed to comment. From talk from people who have been involved in those negotiations, those "first review" deals usually include a catch. That is, before the rights to the first review actually get given, the publisher gets handed a copy of the review you'd intend to post and gets to sign off on whether to grant the exclusive period based on the review text and score. So, if the review is not sufficiently glowing, the publisher has retained the right to hold said review for the general embargo instead of being able to have exclusive status.
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Jul 3, 2015 01:02
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Dapper_Swindler posted:https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/521423486170849281 I wouldn't say that he's pissed, though. Only that last tweet was made after the reviews came out, and he's correct in saying that not all reviews mention that it's at least sorta weird how much time the camera spends focused on Bayonetta's crotch during cutscenes. That said, I personally considered Bayonetta from the perspective of outsider art, because either it was imagined by someone who spent most of his life alone in an Anime Cave, or Japan is far stranger than I previously thought.
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Jul 3, 2015 01:04
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Let us English posted:400 posts overnight! I'll never get caught up. I'm a lovely person for calling my friends to warn them that a guy who got fired for being a total rear end in a top hat and loving over other people at work was an rear end in a top hat and they might not want to hire him, because if he kills himself his blood is on my hands. Also someone has a girlfriend with large breasts. Let us English posted:IGN is corrupt, why? IGN and the other large outlets get lots of merch, junkets, and star treatment by EA, Blizzard, EIDOS, and other big-name places. A 'host' for IGN was made into a character in Mass Effect 3. Back in the print days--and probably still for the printed versions of anything there is still print of--the PR and marketing departments of EA et al. would time the buys or large ad space for reviews of important games. Often, like for Battlefield 1942, the ads themselves were utter crap, but that wasn't seen as important--it was the size of the ad buy. I present IGN's review of BF1942, as it originally shippped: http://www.ign.com/articles/2002/09/16/battlefield-1942 Now, BF1942 is a loving great game. I was a tester on it, I love it, it was great. But it also shipped buggy as hell. In the IGN article, the only 'bug' that is mentioned is the lag of single player. Not a single other bug was mentioned. The review also contains this awesome chunk: quote:But the model of the game is solid enough to work with virtually any number of players. I've joined servers in a three-on-three fight only to have the teams grow to ten or twelve players each. While playing in both environments requires a small shift in approach, the fundamentals of the game are the same. And since most of the maps have multiple flags, 3-on-3 can be just as fluid and violent as a 12-on-12 match. No, 3 on 3 cannot be just as fluid or violent as a 12 on 12 match. 3 on 3 was, and is, boring. Yes, you'd find the teams grow, but until you got up to at least like eight people you just hosed around. BF1942 did great and deserved to do great, but it had huge, huge problems at the start and only a lot of fixes for the multiplayer meant it did as well as it did. Here is the SA review of the time, which is much more in line with reality: http://www.somethingawful.com/game-reviews/battlefield-1942/2/ This is just an example. In general, if you look at the old print reviews, you will find coverage that almost completely ignores bugs; you will also find large ad spreads from the companies being reviewed. This isn't true in the modern day because the online ad model needs to switch out ads quickly and adapt them for the audience and poo poo like that, but the IGN writers (and staff) still get the PR bum-rish by the big studios. It's 'corrupt' in the same way that every product-covering journalism is corrupt, and it's inescapable. Let us English posted:
You weren't at IGN back in 2002/2003 were you? Obdicut fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Jul 3, 2015 |
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Jul 3, 2015 01:05
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thefncrow posted:To add to the IGN talk, IGN is one of the outlets that traffics occasionally in getting exclusives to ensure they have the first review. The benefit to the outlet is that they get to be the only people talking about the game for a period of a day or a couple of days, driving traffic to their site before anyone else is allowed to comment. Yes, and IGN has refused to budge when the score doesn't meat the target (usually an 8.) That said, I don't think IGN has had an exclusive review in years.
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Jul 3, 2015 01:05
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The Snark posted:But there are black people, aren't there? Zerrikanians were they? They're just not commonly in the area where the game takes place, as one might expect of a world lacking in the commonplace air-travel we have come to enjoy in the modern world. Its not a real place. The logistics of travel do not need an explanation. If you are going to complain about how implausible it is for black people to get the area of the game without airplanes why not also complain about why the character doesn't occasionally suffer from dysentery from drinking river water while journeying around the countryside. quote:Does it make sense to have the creators change the already-created world and lore to have more black people around? The game already has massive changes to the lore and world for the sake of the game. Why is "occassional not white person" the boundary of unacceptability?
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Jul 3, 2015 01:05
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Cingulate posted:I'm probably smarter than your girlfriend. *me checks how many posts you have in this thread* uhhh probably not dude.
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Jul 3, 2015 01:07
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Let us English posted:Yes, and IGN has refused to budge when the score doesn't meat the target (usually an 8.) You can see why it is difficult to believe you when you say they agree to shady business practices but totally refuse to actually do it if the game is bad right?
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Jul 3, 2015 01:08
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One of the common threads when reading the memoirs and recollections of black scifi and fantasy writers and fans is the disturbing sense that the optimistic, often utopian future, was also devoid of blacks. A connection between the two seemed uncannily likely. "In the future, they won't have us around." This was, of course, the product of dopamine hallucinations and entirely unreasonable narrative narrative narrative.
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Jul 3, 2015 01:08
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O__O posted:*me checks how many posts you have in this thread* uhhh probably not dude. You think that boobs drain intelligence, so I'm sure you're an expert on how smart people are.
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Jul 3, 2015 01:09
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Mel Mudkiper posted:You can see why it is difficult to believe you when you say they agree to shady business practices but totally refuse to actually do it if the game is bad right? It's really not 'shady business practices'. There's nothing unethical about it from a business standpoint, or rather, it's inevitable. To get access you have to have a relationship. Writers love the industry, so do a lot of devs, they bond, they become friends, they party together, they get invited to industry shindigs. It's incestuous and that is just always going to be the nature of it. It's okay, it's just games.
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Jul 3, 2015 01:10
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Can we take a moment to just chill and acknowledge SMT is a good series and Effectronica is cool for having SMT avatars that is my two cents
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Jul 3, 2015 01:10
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Effectronica posted:You think that boobs drain intelligence, so I'm sure you're an expert on how smart people are. It's like having a large penis, right? Blood is drawn to the boobs leaving less for your brain. Basic biology.
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Jul 3, 2015 01:10
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Obdicut posted:It's really not 'shady business practices'. There's nothing unethical about it from a business standpoint, or rather, it's inevitable. We will agree to give you the game to review early on the condition the review is positive is absolutely shady and I find it very hard to believe IGN simply postpones the review if its not good enough because they are so ethical. If ethics were a concern the deal would not be made with those qualifiers at all.
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Jul 3, 2015 01:12
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Effectronica posted:You think that boobs drain intelligence, so I'm sure you're an expert on how smart people are. Please do not troll me by posting the opposite of what I said.
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Jul 3, 2015 01:13
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More to the point why the gently caress is Gamespot still around despite them being one of the largest corporate shills, actually firing an ethical journalist who called it like he saw it because they were being paid by the people promoting the game?
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Jul 3, 2015 01:14
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Ddraig posted:More to the point why the gently caress is Gamespot still around despite them being one of the largest corporate shills, actually firing an ethical journalist who called it like he saw it because they were being paid by the people promoting the game? Because they don't have annoying journalists who talk about women stuff apparently
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Jul 3, 2015 01:15
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Cingulate posted:She made multiple videos, including ones about the book. Surely "good" in this context means "good for the culture in terms of what it is or represents" rather than "successful by the metrics of quality storytelling." She's not that kind of critic, and she starts all her videos by saying it's ok to like or celebrate something even if you notice problematic aspects of it. The reverse can be true as well. I might be wrong, but I don't see her doing literary criticism as much as like practical culture studies. It's like how people use the Bechdel Test/ought to use the Bechdel Test as a diagnostic tool for the larger culture rather than as a way to tell whether a movie is good.
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Jul 3, 2015 01:16
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Mel Mudkiper posted:We will agree to give you the game to review early on the condition the review is positive is absolutely shady and I find it very hard to believe IGN simply postpones the review if its not good enough because they are so ethical. If ethics were a concern the deal would not be made with those qualifiers at all. Again, in terms of 'business practice' this is like candyfloss. Remember, you're talking about business, i.e. sweatshop labor, payday loans, forced overtime, etc. etc. This is 'Maybe a game got a higher score than it strictly should have', but IGN still wrote the review about the actual game and you'd still read it and get actual information about the game. Even that BF1942 one that I'm harshing on got a lot of stuff right. Maybe it was just because I worked in the industry, but I never knew anyone who thought the number on a review really meant something, it was kind of more like something to argue about. A game would get a rating and people would immediately disagree, almost nobody would go "Oh, that 9.2 was right on the money". Anyway, the point is that if the worst a business does is give someone early access with the requirement they write a good review, I'm sorry but that really doesn't seem that upsetting to me. At the same time, EA was forcing programmers to work overtime in a way that actually legit ruined people's lives--that's the sort of business practices I'd consider really unethical. This is just PR and marketing and it's all fakery anyway, it's like getting mad at the Oscars.
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Jul 3, 2015 01:17
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O__O posted:Please do not troll me by posting the opposite of what I said. So you think flat-chested women are dumb?
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Jul 3, 2015 01:18
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Yeah, Kamiya doesn't have the best track record of respectful female characters so I find myself hard pressed to give him the benefit of the doubt Kamiyas no Gloria Steinem but he's made a considerable amount of likable characters that have sizable female fanbases, like Bayonetta. She-hulk also has a sizable female fanbase despite sexualization. Do you think men aren't capable of creating good female characters?
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Jul 3, 2015 01:19
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