|
Also, he might have got sick with (OMG) not flu! Other respiratory infections do exist, and can be just as nasty and are not remotely impacted by the vaccine.
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 23:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 23:51 |
|
|
Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Flu shots aren't vaccines, right? Is that why you have to get them annually? I'm asking because some dipshit on my Facebook is talking about his reasoning for being an anti-vaxxer which is "I got the flu shot and got sick" The blog Red Wine and Apple Sauce has a pretty comprehensive flu shot myths list if you're interested in further reading beyond the advice in this thread. In unrelated news in Texas, Austin Regional Clinic is no longer accepting new children patients that are denied vaccinations (barring obvious medical exemptions.) This change is fairly significant because they are the largest private provider there and the Austin area has a sizable anti-vaccine element.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 00:35
|
|
|
In other news: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/boy-dies-diphtheria-spain-parents-rejected-vaccine-32069410 The unvaccinated boy that got diptheria in Spain died recently. Another article mentioned that they'd detected the bacteria in several other (~9 or 10) people as well, but since they'd all been vaccinated, they hadn't actually developed the disease.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 00:58
|
|
|
What about the claim that the child has a genetic "disorder" that the vaccines are likely to antagonize and make the kid autistic? They pointed to an NIH study derka derka, crazy people right?
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 01:08
|
|
|
DJ BK posted:What about the claim that the child has a genetic "disorder" that the vaccines are likely to antagonize and make the kid autistic? They pointed to an NIH study derka derka, crazy people right? Since dead kids can't develop autism, I guess that problem is solved. v  v
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 01:16
|
|
|
Kid didn't get vaccinated. Kid didn't get autism. This pretty much settles the question.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 01:17
|
|
|
The thing with flu vaccines is that "the flu" isn't just one virus. Hell "the flu" doesn't even specifically refer to only influenza. There are a gently caress ton of strains of influenza and stuff that can cause "the flu" and it's impossible to vaccinate against all of it. The other snag is that there is no such thing as a 24-hour flu. Influenza lasts longer than that and most of the time when people say "I got the stomach flu" it's much more likely to be a mild case of food poisoning. Having flu-like symptoms doesn't necessarily mean you have influenza or even a virus and getting the flu shot and then getting sick doesn't mean it didn't work. The flu shot doesn't make you invincible. It doesn't prevent everything that can make you sick.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 05:01
|
|
|
but that kid did die so ugggghhhhh
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 05:07
|
|
|
Recoome posted:but that kid did die so ugggghhhhh Yeah, but did he die while suffering from autism? 
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 05:09
|
|
|
This fight will only be over when all of the anti-vaxxers die of smallpox: http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article26005486.html quote:The day after Gov. Jerry Brown signed Senate Bill 277, an intensely controversial bill requiring all California schoolchildren to be fully vaccinated, former Assemblyman Tim Donnelly submitted paperwork to overturn the law. Opponents of the bill have also predicted a legal challenge, arguing the law will unconstitutionally block unvaccinated children from receiving an education.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 05:11
|
|
|
DJ BK posted:What about the claim that the child has a genetic "disorder" that the vaccines are likely to antagonize and make the kid autistic? They pointed to an NIH study derka derka, crazy people right? Yes, as far as modern science is aware. I don't think any conclusive genetic link has ever been proven for autism as it's most likely wildly polygenic (if indeed it's exclusively genetic at all) in nature like most brain conditions, and that's not to mention that 'vaccines' is closing on as broad a category as 'chemical', 'drugs' and 'vitamins', so what one vaccine does or doesn't do has basically no impact on what the next one does or doesn't do anyway. So yeah, BS, almost certainly. I'd be interested to see the study they linked though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 11:54
|
|
|
Weren't there also significantly higher rates of Autism found among children adopted from the Romanian orphanages run under the Ceausescu regime, where children were pretty much just left in cots in empty rooms and fed 3 or 4 times a day with little to no human interaction? As in Autism is a developmental disorder diagnosed based on the symptoms or the resulting 'improper' development rather than on the underlying cause. So a rise in autism could potentially be linked to so many things you'd need to have a pretty strong case that a particular factor can 1) cause similar developmental issues and 2) that any rise in autism rates could be strongly linked to that factor while showing a discorollation with other factors. Basically the way autism as a disorder is constructed means that it's impossible to narrow down any single cause because it accepts multiple different causes that have a similar neurological connection (at least I'm assuming there's a neurological connection, it may even be that quite different neurological conditions produce similar behavioural effects and are lumped under the umbrella of Autism). Conversely it means that there's so much uncertainty you can nominate almost anything as the 'cause' of autism and find some science to back up the possibility simply because there probably haven't been any in depth studies debunking the connection. Until decades later when the science is pretty settled but fuckers are still discounting all the actual science poured on top of the FUD.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 14:53
|
|
|
autism is, causally speaking, almost certainly a bunch of different conditions with similar symptom sets. It also has one of those frustrating definition structures that combined with clinician latitude in diagnosis, is particularly amenable to false positives.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 16:08
|
|
|
Welp, in death related news, a woman in Clallam County Washington has died of pneumonia due to measles.quote:The woman was most likely exposed to measles at a local medical facility during a recent outbreak in Clallam County. She was there at the same time as a person who later developed a rash and was contagious for measles. The woman had several other health conditions and was on medications that contributed to a suppressed immune system. She didn’t have some of the common symptoms of measles such as a rash, so the infection wasn’t discovered until after her death. The cause of death was pneumonia due to measles.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 19:42
|
|
|
A tragedy. As a public health researcher specialized in infectious diseases, this makes me above all angry and sad. I hate seeing this happen and it makes me want to redouble my efforts to educate my community on the importance of preventative care including vaccination. That being said, it provided some tragicomedy to a Facebook debate that has been raging amongst my friends lately: 
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 19:56
|
|
|
"the link between over-vaccination and autism is indisputable" He's right 
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2015 21:15
|
|
|
Faustian Bargain posted:"the link between over-vaccination and autism is indisputable" There's also been more cases of Autism as phone technology has advanced, smartphone autism link
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2015 02:45
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:autism is, causally speaking, almost certainly a bunch of different conditions with similar symptom sets. It also has one of those frustrating definition structures that combined with clinician latitude in diagnosis, is particularly amenable to false positives. Autism also involves the brain and we still don't have a drat clue how that thing really works. A lot of brain-related medical stuff is basically "well we don't know what causes this but we have this cure that we know works but we have no idea why it works."
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2015 03:04
|
|
|
Good god guys.. Everyone knows that Porn is what causes autism. And taxes. Taxes are the root cause of everything.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2015 04:52
|
|
|
ToxicSlurpee posted:Autism also involves the brain and we still don't have a drat clue how that thing really works. A lot of brain-related medical stuff is basically "well we don't know what causes this but we have this cure that we know works but we have no idea why it works." ughhhhhhhh
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2015 05:31
|
|
|
look i've so far refrained from making an effortpost re: autismchat, but we have an idea about some the neurophysiological differences between people with autism, as well as disorders which present autistic tendancies, such as schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder. It's super important to note that "autism" or the symptoms associated with autism are also present in other mental disorders, and autism was originally used to describe schizophrenia.Discendo Vox posted:autism is, causally speaking, almost certainly a bunch of different conditions with similar symptom sets. It also has one of those frustrating definition structures that combined with clinician latitude in diagnosis, is particularly amenable to false positives. also you type this out and it sounds really like professional or something and it's got the right buzzwords but what does this even mean? I am sure it's not because I've been doing research and I can't think straight or something else, but goddamn.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2015 06:14
|
|
|
Rosalind posted:A tragedy. As a public health researcher specialized in infectious diseases, this makes me above all angry and sad. I hate seeing this happen and it makes me want to redouble my efforts to educate my community on the importance of preventative care including vaccination. I am so sorry that these harmful rat bastards of society exist. I cannot even fathom how offended and frustrated you are that these paranoid fear mongers. I honestly hope when this mob's toxic thinking dies down you feel something other than shame for this society.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2015 06:17
|
|
|
Faustian Bargain posted:"the link between over-vaccination and autism is indisputable" He said "link", not "lack of link"
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2015 07:32
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2015 08:00
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:Also, he might have got sick with (OMG) not flu! Other respiratory infections do exist, and can be just as nasty and are not remotely impacted by the vaccine. Most people get a stomach virus in the winter and OMG, they have the flu! They don't even know what the flu is, and when they do have it, on average, they probably just think they feel like poo poo and think they will kick it in a few days. Then they continue to go to work and out in public and infect everyone else.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2015 16:19
|
|
|
You're going to confuse QuarkJets with the high r^2.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2015 16:22
|
|
|
Recoome posted:also you type this out and it sounds really like professional or something and it's got the right buzzwords but what does this even mean? I am sure it's not because I've been doing research and I can't think straight or something else, but goddamn. Pohl posted:Most people get a stomach virus in the winter and OMG, they have the flu!
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2015 18:17
|
|
|
Jim Carrey is practically the case study on the link between anti-vaccers and acquiring autism.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2015 19:00
|
|
|
asdf32 posted:You're going to confuse QuarkJets with the high r^2. Care to explain why you would believe this, or are you just dense?
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2015 19:10
|
|
|
Here is the paper the crazy people linked to. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2746083/
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2015 21:45
|
|
|
DJ BK posted:Here is the paper the crazy people linked to. Right: small-scale pilot testing, on a vaccine that is no longer in common use because we loving ERADICATED THE DISEASE CONCERNED USING IT. Autism is not even mentioned, the adverse events concerned are basically 'symptoms of cowpox, the disease from which the vaccine is derived'. And they make no assertion about causation here, though such might be inferred from the article - it strikes me as likely that unless you did a much larger scale study (and there would be no point really because, as noted, we loving ERADICATED SMALLPOX) you wouldn't be able to tell whether the higher rate of AEs in the sample was caused by the SNPs, or whether they were coincidental, or even whether those SNPs just result in a person with a different immune response to that sort of virus anyway. And it all has nothing to do with any vaccination OTHER than the one for smallpox, which as noted, isn't in common rotation because there's no need, so it's entirely irrelevant to the discussion of whether vaccines cause the 'tism for about ten reasons at a brief reading.
|
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2015 22:04
|
|
|
Ravenfood posted:He's saying that he thinks what we call "autism" is actually a group of conditions that have similar symptoms but are caused by different things. Kind of like the below statement re: flu, but broader. We don't know what causes autism, and there are probably a bunch of reasons. One of the thing which I've been researching is Theory of Mind (ToM), which is a symptom of both autism and other mental disorders such as schizophrenia. ToM deficits, broadly, impact social communication due to the inability of a person to infer or attribute internal states of knowledge or feelings to other people in conversation (for example), or for them to be aware that people can have beliefs which are false. The ToM deficit is one (alongside cognitive impairments) of the really core impairments which is found in Autism, a lot of the research (and measures of ToM) are aimed at children with potential autism. Regardless of what actually causes the autism spectrum disorder (ASD), it's probably that a person exhibiting ASD will show a slightly different brain structure to that of a "normal" person. As ASD is a *spectrum*, this damage may be present to varying degrees. The type of deficits which manifest may be caused by damage to different areas of the brain, for example, ToM deficits have been linked with right hemispheric functioning, specifically the right prefrontal cortex. The ability to detect tone and sarcasm seems to be related to pitch perception and prosody, which is classically a RH function. More confusingly, people may exhibit quasi-autistic symptoms due to traumatic experiences or neglect. It may shock you, but children who are exposed to extremely traumatic experiences have the potential to exhibit autistic tendencies, however the prognosis for these children are pretty good. Offhand, a proper ASD diagnosis can only be made in mid-late teens, as it is acknowledged that young children develop at different rates. If Autism is anything, it's a continuum of neurological and cognitive deficits. After sleeping on it, Discendo Vox's post still is really weird and full of buzzwords, and the last part regarding the definition structure is doubly weird because there are more parsimonious ways of expressing "it is difficult to diagnose in children". e: I removed some snark because you guys prob just don't know Recoome fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jul 3, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 3, 2015 22:53
|
|
|
Recoome posted:We don't know what causes autism, and there are probably a bunch of reasons. One of the thing which I've been researching is Theory of Mind (ToM), which is a symptom of both autism and other mental disorders such as schizophrenia. ToM deficits, broadly, impact social communication due to the inability of a person to infer or attribute internal states of knowledge or feelings to other people in conversation (for example), or for them to be aware that people can have beliefs which are false. The ToM deficit is one (alongside cognitive impairments) of the really core impairments which is found in Autism, a lot of the research (and measures of ToM) are aimed at children with potential autism. You seem to know a lot about autism and vaccine related stuff. I am genuinely curious, do you work in medical research or this is something you like to research on your spare time?
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2015 04:15
|
|
|
I am a psychology undergrad who also is a research assistant. e: not the vaccine related thing, mostly to do with specific symtoms of autism and how that is expressed behaviourally and physiologically. I'd like to acknowledge that I'm no-where near an expert in the field, however, I feel like I can comment in an area which I do have a little experience in. Recoome fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Jul 4, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2015 04:27
|
|
|
Recoome posted:I am a psychology undergrad who also is a research assistant. Interesting! I was reading your last post and had a feeling this was not just wikipedia copy and paste. I personally know little to nothing about autism, and you have more than doubled my knowledge of the issue with that post. Thank you.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2015 04:33
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:He said "link", not "lack of link"
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2015 06:23
|
|
|
Recoome posted:If Autism is anything, it's a continuum of neurological and cognitive deficits. After sleeping on it, Discendo Vox's post still is really weird and full of buzzwords, and the last part regarding the definition structure is doubly weird because there are more parsimonious ways of expressing "it is difficult to diagnose in children". I think he was saying ""it's difficult to diagnose in children" and doctors sometimes take liberties, so it may be overdiagnosed in children who simply show traits of autism but have something else."
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2015 06:41
|
|
|
Weldon Pemberton posted:I think he was saying ""it's difficult to diagnose in children" and doctors sometimes take liberties, so it may be overdiagnosed in children who simply show traits of autism but have something else."
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2015 06:45
|
|
|
It's (temporarily) caused by trauma? That explains it, it's not caused by vaccinations, but by scary needles.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2015 15:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 23:51 |
|
|
Peel posted:It's (temporarily) caused by trauma? That explains it, it's not caused by vaccinations, but by mental parents. FTFY
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2015 16:21
|
|
