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Powercrazy posted:There absolutely exists people who will obsessively question any allusions to sex in a videogame whether thematically appropriate or not. No there aren't, or at least not in any meaningful number. I think you're mistaking casting a spotlight on passive sexualization with questioning any allusions to sex. There's a difference between the two.
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Jul 7, 2015 19:53
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7c Nickel posted:Your dismissal might be slightly more effective if someone hadn't just shot up a black church and inspired others to burn down a dozen other historically black churches. Just saying. The black people would have survived if they had just pointed and laughed at the stupid shooter instead, and made fun of his silly outfit and goofy accent.
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Jul 7, 2015 19:54
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7c Nickel posted:Your dismissal might be slightly more effective if someone hadn't just shot up a black church and inspired others to burn down a dozen other historically black churches. Just saying. Dismissal isn't quite right, certainly not what I am going for. I am against the exaggeration for dramatic effect, particularly when I suspect it is being done to support other absurd dismissals. Said shooter was not wearing a Halloween costume and even if they were, would certainly not have made the bullets less lethal.
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Jul 7, 2015 19:57
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ImpAtom posted:Yes. There was both praise and criticism of LToU's story. There was some negativity over "why am I not just playing as Ellie" but that criticism came even from non-feminist sources because a lot of people considers Winter one of the strongest moments of the game. The idea that every single feminist hated TLoU is ridiculous and you should be aware of the absurdity of that statement. I'm not saying "feminsts" hated it. I'm looking for an example of a popular feminist critic applying their critique to it at all. Post an example of one. I'm sure people reviewed it, I'm sure they had mixed reactions to it, but where are the "political critiques" of it.
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Jul 7, 2015 19:57
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circ dick soleil posted:The black people would have survived if they had just pointed and laughed at the stupid shooter instead, and made fun of his silly outfit and goofy accent. It would be pretty easy, the Rhodesian Security Forces wore hotpants. What kind of uniform is that?
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Jul 7, 2015 19:58
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circ dick soleil posted:What you're really saying is that for every game, there will be someone who criticizes it. And whoever criticizes that game suddenly, at that very moment, becomes a hipster (but only for games you like) What I'm saying, is that people who have an audience they cater to will play to that audience. A video game blogger who fancies himself a social justice activist is going to dig deep to find any perceived flaw with which to tar anything remotely popular or "mainstream". 
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Jul 7, 2015 19:59
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Powercrazy posted:It was a great story and game. It was also it's own thing, and yet did any notable feminist critic mention it? Do you, like, not have access to google or twitter or what https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/419224685251801088 https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/550471601037127680
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Jul 7, 2015 19:59
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Powercrazy posted:I'm not saying "feminsts" hated it. I'm looking for an example of a popular feminist critic applying their critique to it at all. It's been a while since the game came out but even a quick google finds things like http://powderroom.kinja.com/the-last-of-us-is-crazy-feminist-yall-1602179074 Here's a less positive but still positive article from Eurogamer: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-05-the-last-of-us-isnt-the-solution-to-sexism-in-games-but-its-a-start When the game was actually new there were a ton of articles about it both praising and criticizing. There was even criticism that it was too feminist by crazy assholes who were upset about things like "a teenage girl can fire a large caliber rifle" and "too many women in positions of authority."
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Jul 7, 2015 20:03
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circ dick soleil posted:I somewhat agree, but regardless is what I said valid criticism or not? Do you have to agree with criticism for it to be valid? Is there anything wrong with sex selling though? Gamergaters have done more to raise money for female devs and indie games than the anti crowd has ever done, i think the general consensus is "yeah make more games, bring diversity into our hobby, just don't take away our tits and explosions or make us feel like bad people for enjoying it". The target audience for many of these games that get criticized are young men, maybe it's okay for them to have eye candy in their games. We had a bunch of people try and fail to link violence in video games to realworld stuff, what evidence is there that fanservice is anything but fantasy fap material for the guys that enjoy those games? It's not like they are unaware of this stuff. Gamers themselves have made fun of sexist tropes for pretty much as long as gamers have been a thing. The stuff anita pulls almost verbatim from tv tropes was all written about in the first place by gamers who noticed those trends. What gaming webcomic hasn't made fun of bikini chainmail or damsels in distress?
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Jul 7, 2015 20:03
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Powercrazy posted:To inject politics into an example piece that isn't political at all. Or click-bait intellectual masturbation. What the gently caress are you talking about? ArbitraryC posted:Is there anything wrong with sex selling though? Gamergaters have done more to raise money for female devs and indie games than the anti crowd has ever done, i think the general consensus is "yeah make more games, bring diversity into our hobby, just don't take away our tits and explosions or make us feel like bad people for enjoying it". The target audience for many of these games that get criticized are young men, maybe it's okay for them to have eye candy in their games. We had a bunch of people try and fail to link violence in video games to realworld stuff, what evidence is there that fanservice is anything but fantasy fap material for the guys that enjoy those games? This is pathetic.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:04
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The Snark posted:Dismissal isn't quite right, certainly not what I am going for. I am against the exaggeration for dramatic effect, particularly when I suspect it is being done to support other absurd dismissals. You've been pretty dismissive of the shared cultural experience of people you can't personally identify with. To you, perhaps even to most people, the Klan looks comical. You look at it and think "What the gently caress, why would anyone ever be scared by a ghost costume?" which is a problem that plagues this entire shitshow of a debacle: Your experiences are not those of anyone but you. It is also not prudent to assume that because you do not feel something, that others don't either. People tend to massively over-estimate how much their world view is shared by others. This is particularly evident in the belief that "You're only defending her because you want to gently caress her" idea that people throw about as if it's a truism that could not possibly be in dispute. Those types of beliefs tend to reflect more on the person expressing them than the person they're being applied to: "I can think of one reason to do this, and one reason alone, you must be doing it for this reason aswell".
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Jul 7, 2015 20:04
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Useful Distraction posted:Do you, like, not have access to google or twitter or what I never go to twitter unless linked and even then I prefer screenshots or archive links. But glad she mentioned it. Would have preferred a critique of a game she obviously has a positive opinion about, rather then her usual axe to grind.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:05
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Talmonis posted:Well yeah, Witcher 3 was made in Poland, from a Polish perspective, about Fantasy Poland. More telling is the lack of Turkish and Jewish minorities. You mean Elves and Dwarves?
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Jul 7, 2015 20:07
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ArbitraryC posted:what evidence is there that fanservice is anything but fantasy fap material for the guys that enjoy those games? If you're unable to enjoy something without also masturbating to it, that's kind of a problem.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:07
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ArbitraryC posted:Is there anything wrong with sex selling though? Besides the fact that it gives impressionable children an incredibly unhealthy outlook on sex and sexuality by turning one gender into an object who's only worth is determined by their cup size? Yes, absolutely.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:11
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Ddraig posted:You've been pretty dismissive of the shared cultural experience of people you can't personally identify with. To you, perhaps even to most people, the Klan looks comical. You look at it and think "What the gently caress, why would anyone ever be scared by a ghost costume?" which is a problem that plagues this entire shitshow of a debacle: Modern age, Ddraig. Their costumes are absurd and were scary- but not for the merit of the costumes. The costumes were absurd, but what was scary was that they indicated the presence of murderous thugs who had high odds of killing someone. I see no reason not to mock their stupid costumes any more than I see any reason to pretend they are the threat now they were then. I am not mocking their past victims, I am not suggesting- as Circ laughingly implies- that they would have survived them by pointing and laughing. But you are absolutely right when you note people tend to massively over-estimate how much their world-view is shared by others. Try to keep in mind it's no less true of you if you think in this particular shitshow Good Side and Bad Side are so easily determined.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:11
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It is useful, I think, to consider when sexual content is fun and when it is alienating. There are a lot of factors involved; genre context, intended audience, whether the overall coherency of the work is disrupted, whether characterization is considered at all, and so forth. I am sorry that sometimes people think your fap material disrupts the games it appears in, and/or needlessly drives away women.ArbitraryC posted:Gamergaters have done more to raise money for female devs and indie games than the anti crowd has ever done Ah, you mean scammers like indie boy Slade Villena, one of GG's top harassers whose game will remain in development limbo in perpetuity. Or TFYC, who were funneling donations into their own studio rather than supporting any female devs like they said they were.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:12
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:To examine the politics of art. What the gently caress do you think it was? Powercrazy posted:To inject politics into an example piece that isn't political at all. Or click-bait intellectual masturbation. BravestOfTheLamps posted:What the gently caress are you talking about? I was answering your question in a very succinct way. I hope you can keep up.  Let me restate it. You said, paraphrased, The purpose of political criticism is to examine the politics of art, and then asked "what the gently caress" I thought it was. I said it's purpose was to inject politics into a subject that wasn't political. I then dismissed your claim wit by calling it click-bait, intellectual masturbation. Now you are asking your question again. I stated my position and now I ask for an example of political criticism as applied to a well received game with broad appeal.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:12
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Who What Now posted:Besides the fact that it gives impressionable children an incredibly unhealthy outlook on sex and sexuality by turning one gender into an object who's only worth is determined by their cup size? Yes, absolutely. They tried to use the exact same logic with normalizing violence but it didn't pan out.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:13
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Who What Now posted:You mean Elves and Dwarves? I meant among the humans as well, which would have been a lot less concerning. But meh, it's neither here nor there to me.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:14
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ArbitraryC posted:They tried to use the exact same logic with normalizing violence but it didn't pan out. Violence and sexism aren't very comparable.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:15
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ArbitraryC posted:They tried to use the exact same logic with normalizing violence but it didn't pan out. ... Yes it did? Like do you really think that was settled and everyone just nodded their heads and went "ah, yes, violence in media means nothing." Assholes like Jack Thompson or people who tried to get violent video games banned went downhill but we haven't actually reached the point of "violence is meaningless."
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Jul 7, 2015 20:15
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The Snark posted:Modern age, Ddraig. Their costumes are absurd and were scary- but not for the merit of the costumes. The costumes were absurd, but what was scary was that they indicated the presence of murderous thugs who had high odds of killing someone. Again, someone who's views line falls perfectly in line with the KKK's just murdered 9 black people and injured one more in a church. But please, tell us more about how in your experiences as a sheltered white dude that racism isn't scary or dangerous anymore. I'm sure that'll bring much comfort and closure to the families of the victims.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:15
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Powercrazy posted:I was answering your question in a very succinct way. I hope you can keep up. Actually it was because your worldview is extremely naive and foolish. Here is a video-essay about reviewing politics in games: Keep Your Politics Out of My Video Games. To paraphrase the video, "injecting politics" is nonsense because it presupposes that video games are apolitical entities. It's a consumer products perspective as opposed to an artistic perspective. Accusations of "injecting politics" is thus denigrating art. In your case, you claim that e: Here's something more specific: Errant Signal on Civilization, and the warped "clash of civilizations" thesis the game ends up presenting. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Jul 7, 2015 |
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Jul 7, 2015 20:19
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Supercar Gautier posted:It is useful, I think, to consider when sexual content is fun and when it is alienating. There are a lot of factors involved; genre context, intended audience, whether the overall coherency of the work is disrupted, whether characterization is considered at all, and so forth. I am sorry that sometimes people think your fap material disrupts the games it appears in, and/or needlessly drives away women. Intended audience is i think they key point here and it seems like the intended young male audience likes that kind of stuff in the triple a games they are paying for so why not let them have it?
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Jul 7, 2015 20:21
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Who What Now posted:Besides the fact that it gives impressionable children an incredibly unhealthy outlook on sex and sexuality by turning one gender into an object who's only worth is determined by their cup size? Yes, absolutely. The problem is that not everyone agrees with that analysis. I played a shitload of video games (not to mention the constant bombardment in other media) as a child and don't see women as objects. I sure as hell don't consider myself special in that regard. IMO the real harm is done to the self image of young girls who don't have that idealized (and frankly inhuman at times) body type. That sort of thing does have a clear impact, and for that reason alone should be enough to argue for including more body types.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:22
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Who What Now posted:Again, someone who's views line falls perfectly in line with the KKK's just murdered 9 black people and injured one more in a church. But please, tell us more about how in your experiences as a sheltered white dude that racism isn't scary or dangerous anymore. I'm sure that'll bring much comfort and closure to the families of the victims. The fact that no one in their right mind would make excuses for said bastard is not a sign society is in danger of being retaken by the KKK, quite the contrary. Racism is scary, it is dangerous, it's still very much alive- but it's not as powerful as it used to be. We increasingly as a whole want to not be racist, which is good- nay- GREAT, but continued improvement isn't going to come by externalizing racism and painting others as being horrible people. Doing that is counterproductive- all the worse when it is done in service to other goals such as dismissing anyone who disagrees with you.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:22
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ArbitraryC posted:I like how you went straight for attacking me personally, but i cant say I am a big consumer of fanservice. And you really, truly, can't conceive a universe where creating a precedent for young males to be catered to via tits and rear end might be a problem?
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Jul 7, 2015 20:23
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ArbitraryC posted:I like how you went straight for attacking me personally, but i cant say I am a big consumer of fanservice. Should all video games have this same intended audience in perpetuity, to the point of actively alienating others? Is it fair that a young woman who wants to get into fighting games will have a tricky time finding a popular one that isn't loaded with cheesecake?
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Jul 7, 2015 20:23
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Powercrazy posted:I was answering your question in a very succinct way. I hope you can keep up. Resident Evil 5 was roundly criticized as being pretty overtly racist. But I'm sure that doesn't count for ~*~reasons~*~.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:24
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ArbitraryC posted:Intended audience is i think they key point here and it seems like the intended young male audience likes that kind of stuff in the triple a games they are paying for so why not let them have it? So your assumption here is that the majority of young men who are buying videogames are doing so for fanservice that is often unrelated to or entirely secondary to the game, and that by removing it they'll refuse to buy it? I mean this might be true for Dead or Alive or Senran Kagura or things like that but when you're buying those you're getting what is on the package. (and there is something to be said for criticizing sexualization of teenage girls.)
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Jul 7, 2015 20:26
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Who What Now posted:Resident Evil 5 was roundly criticized as being pretty overtly racist. But I'm sure that doesn't count for ~*~reasons~*~. Americans bombed the Japanese back into the Racist Age. They're naive and childlike, we cannot judge them by our civilized standards.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:26
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Supercar Gautier posted:Should all video games have this same intended audience in perpetuity, to the point of actively alienating others? Is it fair that a young woman who wants to get into fighting games will have a tricky time finding a popular one that isn't loaded with cheesecake? Should all videogames appeal to all audiences equally?
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Jul 7, 2015 20:27
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Powercrazy posted:Should all videogames appeal to all audiences equally? If you can't come up with a perfect solution, clearly the logical option is to not address the problem at all.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:28
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Who What Now posted:Resident Evil 5 was roundly criticized as being pretty overtly racist. But I'm sure that doesn't count for ~*~reasons~*~. Was that the one that took place in africa, cause the reaction to that was pretty funny.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:28
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Powercrazy posted:Should all videogames appeal to all audiences equally? This is a common fallacy: "it's not bad because it's not intended for you". It's vapid liberal relativism. It's the same train of thought that gives us the old GG canard: "feminists don't even play games!" e: But less antagonistically, what did you think of the videos I posted?
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Jul 7, 2015 20:29
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By declaring any progress to be presumptively pointless because the SJeWs will never be happy, Gaters preemptively excuse themselves for their apathy and general shitheadry.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:29
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Talmonis posted:The problem is that not everyone agrees with that analysis. I played a shitload of video games (not to mention the constant bombardment in other media) as a child and don't see women as objects. I sure as hell don't consider myself special in that regard. I was talking about both developing boys and developing girls, so yeah I'm glad we're in agreement on this point at least. The Snark posted:The fact that no one in their right mind would make excuses for said bastard is not a sign society is in danger of being retaken by the KKK, quite the contrary. You've done nothing but try to diminish racism and play it off as a laughable joke this entire time, I don't think you really have any room to talk about having counterproductive views on race. Even in this very post you're trying to write it off as if it's not a big deal any more. Racism is still an enormous problem, despite the fact that it's no longer ok to be explicitly and overtly racist. It hasn't really diminished, it's just become more subtle. Seemingly too subtle for you, it seems.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:29
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Powercrazy posted:Should all videogames appeal to all audiences equally? That's a lofty goal. One I don't think we will ever reach, nor should we really have any desire to. What would be nice is the fairly manageable goal of "not appealing to a single audience only"
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Jul 7, 2015 20:30
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Supercar Gautier posted:Should all video games have this same intended audience in perpetuity, to the point of actively alienating others? Is it fair that a young woman who wants to get into fighting games will have a tricky time finding a popular one that isn't loaded with cheesecake? All games don't though, from a personal perspective I can't say im a huge fan of overt sexualization of women (or anyone really) in games i play so my solution is to just go for games that have the kind of content I want. I play a lot of indie stuff as a result and support devs that make the games I like. Presumably if there are enough people like me supporting devs that make games that cater to our interests then more games will get made and then so on. Demanding the industry change to meet your needs when you don't play the wide variety of stuff already available to you makes you come across as someone just trying to ruin other people's fun.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:31
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