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Powercrazy posted:Was that the one that took place in africa, cause the reaction to that was pretty funny. It was the one with tribal mask wearing, spear chucking witch doctors in grass skirts, yes.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:31
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ArbitraryC posted:Demanding the industry change to meet your needs when you don't play the wide variety of stuff already available to you makes you come across as someone just trying to ruin other people's fun. Why do you assume that the people who make these criticisms don't play many games?
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Jul 7, 2015 20:31
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Powercrazy posted:Should all videogames appeal to all audiences equally? Should all? No. That doesn't mean the opposite argument of 'never try ever' is any more valid. ArbitraryC posted:Demanding the industry change to meet your needs when you don't play the wide variety of stuff already available to you makes you come across as someone just trying to ruin other people's fun. Hi. I've played more video games than you have. I can play video games, enjoy them, and still criticize them. I can play video games I enjoy a lot and feel they are dragged down by poo poo that it would be better without. You can enjoy something, play something and still be critical of it. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Jul 7, 2015 |
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Jul 7, 2015 20:31
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Powercrazy posted:Was that the one that took place in africa, cause the reaction to that was pretty funny. RE5 got a lot of weird flack. Having black people in a game and being able to shoot them doesn't strike me as racist in and of itself, but the part where the plaga virus results in African people grabbing their spears and shields and dressing up like every stereotype of the African tribesmen has more than a few racist undertones. I enjoyed the game, thought it was pretty good, especially the way the combat worked, but I can point that out.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:31
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Who What Now posted:I was talking about both developing boys and developing girls, so yeah I'm glad we're in agreement on this point at least. Subtle, insidious, everywhere. True of racism, not so much the KKK I believe. And tell me, wiser one than I, how should this subtle racism that is everywhere be fought? Is it by calling the people who have it names? Are you free of all racist thought, my fellow goon?
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Jul 7, 2015 20:33
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Panzeh posted:RE5 got a lot of weird flack. Having black people in a game and being able to shoot them doesn't strike me as racist in and of itself, but the part where the plaga virus results in African people grabbing their spears and shields and dressing up like every stereotype of the African tribesmen has more than a few racist undertones. So if someone said Resident Evil 5 was racist would that bug you? Would you pipe up and say that the game isn't inherently racist, it just has some really weird and racist undertones?
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Jul 7, 2015 20:34
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The Snark posted:Subtle, insidious, everywhere. True of racism, not so much the KKK I believe. Not pretending it isn't a big deal anymore would be a great start for sure. quote:Is it by calling the people who have it names? Shaming is a valid response, yes. quote:Are you free of all racist thought, my fellow goon? Yes.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:35
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Plom Bar posted:If you can't come up with a perfect solution, clearly the logical option is to not address the problem at all. Actually as I've stated repeatedly, the solution isn't to try to change the games that exist. But to promote the other games that appeal to you or your ideology. There is no need to change Doom or Halo. But hey there was this cool indie game called Gone Home, or give me another example please. This encourages games to be developed that target other audiences without alienating the existing audiences. Win/Win imo.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:36
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The Snark posted:Subtle, insidious, everywhere. True of racism, not so much the KKK I believe. We can start by calling it what it is. In this thread, ON THIS PAGE, you have examples of people dismissing RE5 as "not really racist", in part because of the lack of understanding of exactly what racism is.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:36
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Supercar Gautier posted:Why do you assume that the people who make these criticisms don't play many games?
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Jul 7, 2015 20:36
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Exmond posted:So if someone said Resident Evil 5 was racist would that bug you? Would you pipe up and say that the game isn't inherently racist, it just has some really weird and racist undertones? It wouldn't bug me that much. You can find pretty much every opinion on the internet if you look hard enough.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:37
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Powercrazy posted:Actually as I've stated repeatedly, the solution isn't to try to change the games that exist. But to promote the other games that appeal to you or your ideology. There is no need to change Doom or Halo. But hey there was this cool indie game called Gone Home, or give me another example please. "Everyone will have the products they like. Everyone will be content. Consume and be happy."
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Jul 7, 2015 20:37
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Powercrazy posted:Actually as I've stated repeatedly, the solution isn't to try to change the games that exist. But to promote the other games that appeal to you or your ideology. There is no need to change Doom or Halo. But hey there was this cool indie game called Gone Home, or give me another example please. Please show me the hordes of people calling for Doom and Halo to be changed.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:38
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:This is a common fallacy: "it's not bad because it's not intended for you". It's vapid liberal relativism. I can't watch videos at work :/ Well I could but it would be pretty blatant.. Ddraig posted:That's a lofty goal. One I don't think we will ever reach, nor should we really have any desire to. What would be nice is the fairly manageable goal of "not appealing to a single audience only" Agreed.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:38
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The Snark posted:Are you free of all racist thought, my fellow goon? Who What Now posted:Yes. Hail the immaculate one! gently caress Bernie, Who What Now for President! They will show us the way and are surely not just rather lacking in self-awareness!
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Jul 7, 2015 20:39
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ArbitraryC posted:One of the things anita consistently gets criticized for is it's clear she hasn't played the games she is talking about to any significant extent. No one here is talking about Anita you obsessed weirdo.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:40
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ArbitraryC posted:One of the things anita consistently gets criticized for is it's clear she hasn't played the games she is talking about to any significant extent. Are you saying that, or are you saying that "other people" say that? Because most of the time I hear this criticism, it's of the form of "It's clear she hasn't played much of this game because she would understand how this isn't sexism/racism/bigotry if she had", which is just "Nuh-uh" dressed up in fancier language. Is this something you subscribe to? Because if so, I'd love to know how you came to that conclusion.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:40
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Powercrazy posted:Actually as I've stated repeatedly, the solution isn't to try to change the games that exist. Why not? There are countless examples of games which are changed in response to customer feedback. Many times these changes are for the positive. Like not even just storyline-wise. Many people claim that gameplay mechanics or otherwise should change.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:41
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:"Everyone will have the products they like. Everyone will be content. Consume and be happy." So your actual problem with video games is they promote consumer culture? In that case I agree, but discussing sexism through that lens seems like an oblique take on it.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:42
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ImpAtom posted:Should all? No. You can criticise all you want it's just at the end of the day maybe you need to be able to accept that the product wasn't designed with you in mind, it doesn't have to be, and it's okay for the people who do enjoy it to want to keep it the way it is. You want more video games that don't have that kind of stuff then you need to be part of the market for those games. Maybe twitter has given people a false sense of how big their bloc is though.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:42
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The Snark posted:Hail the immaculate one! gently caress Bernie, Who What Now for President! Calling you out in your repeated attempts to minimize racism as if it isn't a thing anymore sure does seem to have struck a nerve with you.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:42
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Powercrazy posted:Let me restate it. All art is political because it is created in a specific time and place with specific ideas in mind and thus reflects those ideas and that time and that place, hope this helps.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:43
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thefncrow posted:Are you saying that, or are you saying that "other people" say that? Because most of the time I hear this criticism, it's of the form of "It's clear she hasn't played much of this game because she would understand how this isn't sexism/racism/bigotry if she had", which is just "Nuh-uh" dressed up in fancier language. Unlike the perfect video game girl Vivian James Anita doesn't just want to play games she wants to discuss them aswell. Of course she doesn't really discuss them because she can't help her nature and as such she has no opinions of her own (like Vivian) and it's Josh who writes them for her.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:45
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Plom Bar posted:We can start by calling it what it is. In this thread, ON THIS PAGE, you have examples of people dismissing RE5 as "not really racist", in part because of the lack of understanding of exactly what racism is. Racist? Perhaps it is. But is it racist because it was set in Africa? I don't know, never played that one. If it is, then what would have made it not racist, but still allowed for it to be set in Africa? Or does having it set in Africa make it racist by default unless there are no playable characters who are white?
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Jul 7, 2015 20:47
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ArbitraryC posted:You can criticise all you want it's just at the end of the day maybe you need to be able to accept that the product wasn't designed with you in mind, it doesn't have to be, and it's okay for the people who do enjoy it to want to keep it the way it is. So is it ok for people to make a woman beating simulator or "friend of the family Lynching: The Game!" because those are made for wife-beaters and racists and not for normal people? Should such games be immune to any and all criticism? quote:You want more video games that don't have that kind of stuff then you need to be part of the market for those games. Maybe twitter has given people a false sense of how big their bloc is though. Well, at least you can admit that you have an over-inflated sense of how large your "side" is. That's something most other GGers can't say.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:47
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Who What Now posted:Besides the fact that it gives impressionable children an incredibly unhealthy outlook on sex and sexuality by turning one gender into an object who's only worth is determined by their cup size? Yes, absolutely. Maybe this could be avoided by not buying sexually explicit media and handing it to children. Or perhaps improving sexual education in schools, although that's far beyond the scope of this thread. Plom Bar posted:Please show me the hordes of people calling for Doom...to be changed. It seems as though Feminist Frequency was mad about the new Doom trailer because every depiction of spilled blood is a tool of the toxic masculine Phallus-Facist agenda, but that's about all I've seen. Frankly, I kind of found the trailer to be boring, but that's just me. And I guess there was that half-decade or so after the Columbine shooting, if you want to count that.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:47
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The Snark posted:Racist? Perhaps it is. But is it racist because it was set in Africa? I think what makes it racist is that there are enemies in the game that are literal caricatures of Africans. Literal spear chucking witch doctors with grass skirts and war paint that could have easily been pulled from the pages of a TinTin book.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:49
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The Snark posted:Racist? Perhaps it is. But is it racist because it was set in Africa? Hm, perhaps instead of mouthing off about something you have no experience with or knowledge about you could maybe, I don't know, look into the subject a little more than not at all?
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Jul 7, 2015 20:49
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"I went to a movie last weekend, and I thought the ending was bad. I guess the only suitable course of action is to take up a film career and make my own movie; voicing my displeasure with the film would be an unfair imposition of change upon the director, and upon the film's fans." Absolutely loving no one talks this way about any other medium. Why do people accept this line of thinking when it comes to video games?
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Jul 7, 2015 20:49
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OMG JC a Bomb! posted:It seems as though Feminist Frequency was mad about the new Doom trailer because every depiction of spilled blood is a tool of the toxic masculine Phallus-Facist agenda, but that's about all I've seen. Frankly, I kind of found the trailer to be boring, but that's just me. That is a new Doom game. It is not calling for something that already exists to be changed, it is pointing out the problems in a thing that does not yet exist in its final form. Potential consumers influence product development literally all the time. This is not new nor exclusive to feminists and video games.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:50
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The Snark posted:Racist? Perhaps it is. But is it racist because it was set in Africa? Yo it's a game set in Africa where you mow down hordes of mindless enemies who are coincidentally spearchucking witch doctors, you can drop the "just asking questions how could I know" poo poo, preferably in favor of looking into things on your own.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:51
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Ddraig posted:I think what makes it racist is that there are enemies in the game that are literal caricatures of Africans. Literal spear chucking witch doctors with grass skirts and war paint that could have easily been pulled from the pages of a TinTin book. So it wouldn't have been racist if there had been none of those? Fair enough!
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Jul 7, 2015 20:51
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The Snark posted:So it wouldn't have been racist if there had been none of those? Fair enough! Yes, if it didn't have any racist elements it wouldn't have racist elements. Someone get the kid a gold star.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:54
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Who What Now posted:So is it ok for people to make a woman beating simulator or "friend of the family Lynching: The Game!" because those are made for wife-beaters and racists and not for normal people? Should such games be immune to any and all criticism
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Jul 7, 2015 20:56
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ImpAtom posted:Why not? If the criticism is constructive then I welcome it. If it's petty poo poo like why doesn't this game have a female lead the the problem is you end up with Assassin's Creed, as mechanically and thematically flawed as the the recent ones, but now you play as a woman. Or in particularly lovely circumstances you have publishers turning a game from say a solid squad-based tactical RPG into a generic halo clone, basically homogenizing the market because the hip new thing was FPS's. And when that was the trend I said the same thing, if you want to jump on the FPS hype train, go for it, but come up with new poo poo. If a reviewer likes FPS's seek out lesser known titles and talk about them. You don't have to turn every game into an FPS.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:56
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The Snark posted:So it wouldn't have been racist if there had been none of those? Fair enough! "It wouldn't have been racist as hell if you removed the parts that were racist as hell? Well I suppose you're right."
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Jul 7, 2015 20:56
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ArbitraryC posted:enhancing the sexuality I like how you tried to come up with a clinical, objective-sounding euphemism for "adding T&A" and just managed to make yourself sound even creepier.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:57
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Plom Bar posted:That is a new Doom game. It is not calling for something that already exists to be changed, it is pointing out the problems in a thing that does not yet exist in its final form. Potential consumers influence product development literally all the time. This is not new nor exclusive to feminists and video games. Nah, I agree. I think the new trailer depicts some dull environments and uses the same animations far too many times, and I don't like the idea of being locked into some dramatic kill-cam thing every ten seconds. McIntosh has every right to criticize it as he sees fit. Hell, I encourage it, since the results are often pretty funny (though I'm not convinced he's ever actively tried to be funny in his life). EDIT: The last half of RE 5 is insanely racist, by the way. Like, it's kind of incredible that nobody told Capcom during development. OMG JC a Bomb! fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Jul 7, 2015 |
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Jul 7, 2015 20:57
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ArbitraryC posted:I specifically said criticism was okay and beyond that i wouldn't say enhancing the sexuality of female characters in games targeted at 20 +/- 5 year old males is even remotely comparable to either of those things. What, exactly, is the difference besides "I like titties and don't like those other things"?
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Jul 7, 2015 20:58
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ArbitraryC posted:You can criticise all you want it's just at the end of the day maybe you need to be able to accept that the product wasn't designed with you in mind, it doesn't have to be, and it's okay for the people who do enjoy it to want to keep it the way it is. That works if everyone likes things for the same reason but they don't. What if someone likes the story but not the gameplay? What if they love the gameplay but dislike the story? Games are not easily shoehorned into one specific thing. Powercrazy posted:If the criticism is constructive then I welcome it. If it's petty poo poo like why doesn't this game have a female lead the the problem is you end up with Assassin's Creed, as mechanically and thematically flawed as the the recent ones, but now you play as a woman. So do you think Metroid Prime shouldn't exist then?
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Jul 7, 2015 20:58
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