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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I said otherwise not four posts ago. Okay, then your argument doesn't matter at all; if you're saying that identity politics can exist under socialism, then nothing you've said is actually relevant to the thread. We'd still be arguing the same subject under socialism, just with the minor variation that we wouldn't be considering the profit motive's effect. The basic argument would still be the same: some people don't want games to be evaluated as culturally meaningful and impactful, others do. quote:AGG is an example of identity politics "exploited by capitalism", to get things back on topic. Doesn't matter to a discussion of GG: It would still exist, it just wouldn't be exploited by capitalism. We get that you are a brave socialist who wants to end capitalism and wants to turn every conversation to that end. This is not an appropriate place to do it, it doesn't actually strengthen your cause at all to do so here.
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Jul 8, 2015 12:13
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Obdicut posted:Okay, then your argument doesn't matter at all; if you're saying that identity politics can exist under socialism, then nothing you've said is actually relevant to the thread. We'd still be arguing the same subject under socialism, just with the minor variation that we wouldn't be considering the profit motive's effect. The basic argument would still be the same: some people don't want games to be evaluated as culturally meaningful and impactful, others do. What on earth are you talking about? GG is explicitly a capitalistic, consumerist phemonenon (like our video game industry). GGers often characterise themselves as a consumer revolt. I don't know what kind of socialist society you're imagining, but by definition consumerism would not exist under "real" socialism. Obdicut posted:We get that you are a brave socialist who wants to end capitalism and wants to turn every conversation to that end. This is not an appropriate place to do it, it doesn't actually strengthen your cause at all to do so here. Everything I've said in this thread has been about GG. I don't know why it is inappropriate to say that GG is consumer-capitalist, or talk about how its liberal policies lead to impossible self-defeating goals. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 12:27
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:What on earth are you talking about? GG is explicitly a capitalistic, consumerist phemonenon (like our video game industry). GGers often characterise themselves as a consumer revolt. I don't know what kind of socialist society you're imagining, but by definition consumerism would not exist under "real" socialism. People would still consume products and would still have opinions about them. quote:What? You've agreed identity politics are exploited by capitalism, not caused by it. Identity politics, and the discussion about inclusiveness in games, could still exist under socialism. quote:Everything I've said in this thread has been about GG. I don't know why it is inappropriate to say that GG is consumer-capitalist, or talk about how its liberal policies lead to impossible self-defeating goals. The first part is simply a truism; we live in a capitalist society, so any consumer discussion is consumer-capitalist. It is an obvious statement that adds nothing. The second is a very complex thesis that is an entirely separate discussion: whether liberal policies lead to self-defeating goals. This does not have to do with GG. I can't really make any of this any clearer.
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Jul 8, 2015 12:32
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Obdicut posted:People would still consume products and would still have opinions about them. You're oversimplifying GG. GG is a much different (and dumber) phenomenon. quote:The first part is simply a truism; we live in a capitalist society, so any consumer discussion is consumer-capitalist. It is an obvious statement that adds nothing. The second is a very complex thesis that is an entirely separate discussion: whether liberal policies lead to self-defeating goals. This does not have to do with GG. Actually I've stated several times why it has everything to do with GG. GG is founded on the idea of excluding or suppressing toxic subjects (those people), This is a reflection of the same policies of liberal feminists and SJWs. e: The consumer-capitalist part ties into it because A/GG is about consumerism. For example, there have been criticism of AGG/feminism and defences of GG on consumerist grounds: like Powercrazy's "sandcastle" analogy. GG started out as outrage over "products" being "tainted". BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 12:40 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 12:37
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You're oversimplifying GG. GG is a much different (and dumber) phenomenon. It is not even consumerism--you're misusing the term. quote:Actually I've stated several times why it has everything to do with GG. GG is founded on the idea of excluding or suppressing toxic subjects (those people), This is a reflection of the same policies of liberal feminists and SJWs. And this could still exist in socialism. quote:e: The consumer-capitalist part ties into it because A/GG is about consumerism. For example, there have been criticism of AGG/feminism and defences of GG on consumerist grounds: like Powercrazy's "sandcastle" analogy. Consumerism doesn't mean what you apparently think it means. Consumerism is about conspicuous consumption, excess consumption, consumption in increasing amounts. It has nothing to do with wanting products to be a certain way or reflect certain values.
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Jul 8, 2015 12:44
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Obdicut posted:Consumerism doesn't mean what you apparently think it means. Consumerism is about conspicuous consumption, excess consumption, consumption in increasing amounts. It has nothing to do with wanting products to be a certain way or reflect certain values. From Oxford Dictionaries: 1 The protection or promotion of the interests of consumers: the growth of consumerism has led to many organizations improving their service to the customer 2 often derogatory: The preoccupation of society with the acquisition of consumer goods: many people are becoming increasingly conscious of the environmental impact of consumerism GGers have characterised themselves as a consumer revolt. I think there is truth to it: they've revolted against the services offered by gaming websites. It's not a "pure" consumer revolt, but it is characterised by consumerism. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 12:50
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Please move this thread back to gibbis, thanks. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 8, 2015 13:06
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Obdicut posted:The first part of this is really false-- a game put out by an AAA studio that had a very slender budget would be covered precisely because it was being put out by an AAA studio with a slender budget. The second part is at best a truism: They spend a lot of money on programming and art because consumers like games with new shiny graphics, they like games with larger multiplayer capacity, they like games that are polished and have sweet-rear end animations and smooth netcode etc. There is no reason to de-escalate the megabucks arms race; indie games can be made and sell fine, AAA studios can put out slender titles with low budgets if they want to, but to make a game with really complex physics and really detailed graphics actually takes a lot of investment. You said you've worked for EA so I'm going to take your word for it. My info is at best second hand from knowing employees at Rockstar North and realtime who claimed that spending 1/3-1/2 of the budget on marketing wasn't uncommon (with the rest going towards the things you mentioned, as well as the general push for games to be 'open world' even if they don't need to be which takes a poo poo ton of work). Although I can attest first hand that indie success banks on either being part of the incredibly cliqueish western scene or a massive stroke of luck like 5NAF. Some Japanese indie game like Asteebreed or Crimzon Clover is never going to receive any attention no matter how solid they are because the language barrier prevents them from buddy-buddying with people who can write about them. Broniki fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 13:47
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edit: Not touch the poop.
duck monster fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 13:56
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I said otherwise not four posts ago. You quoted it. Again, if AGG is, then all of feminism is. All the battles for reproductive rights and workplace equality take place within the liberal concepts of freedom to choose and earn money.
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Jul 8, 2015 14:03
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Broniki posted:Although I can attest first hand that indie success banks on either being part of the incredibly cliqueish western scene or a massive stroke of luck like 5NAF. Some Japanese indie game like Asteebreed or Crimzon Clover is never going to receive any attention no matter how solid they are because the language barrier prevents them from buddy-buddying with people who can write about them. Welcome to independent and international distribution of any cultural product. It is extremely naive to expect any product to perform solely on its merits.
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Jul 8, 2015 14:06
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Broniki posted:Although I can attest first hand that indie success banks on either being part of the incredibly cliqueish western scene or a massive stroke of luck like 5NAF. Some Japanese indie game like Asteebreed or Crimzon Clover is never going to receive any attention no matter how solid they are because the language barrier prevents them from buddy-buddying with people who can write about them. And the few people who want to write professionally about smaller games have to make do with earning absolutely peanuts or doing it purely out of love. They also run a much bigger risk of being targeted by certain hate-mobs, because they have to get close to tiny developers (no PR departments to create boundaries) in order to actually get any kind of coverage. And woe be to them if they want to cover anything really niche like experimental Twine games or anything actively feminist. I know a lot of writers who have basically gone radio silent on any vaguely social issue because they're afraid for themselves or their families. Even just mentioning the name of one of GG's prime targets can ruin a comment system for weeks, as there is an organized mobilization to flood ANY site with official talking points. If they spot an article, you can be sure that KiA, 8chan, etc will have a call to arms up within an hour now. Staff writers for big sites have nothing to fear, but if you're an indie developer or writer, it's like walking on thin ice above a pit full of piranhas. I've gotten threatening emails saying that I'm being reported to the UK government for benefit fraud (amusing, as I've never claimed benefits in my life), among other things. I'm just glad I'm pretty low-profile, so they've not gotten round to menacing phone-calls to my family, but I know a bunch of people who are dealing with that now. And y'know what? This stuff happened before, but much more rarely until all the douchebags of the internet mobilized under a single banner. Almost every arsehole that's been harassing women online over the past decade (and I've recognized a good few of them) is now flying that green-and-purple flag. This abuse and general skeeziness always existed, yes, but now it's organized, and that's loving terrible for just about everyone. Dominic White fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 14:07
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:From Oxford Dictionaries: That's not the sociological definition; that was coined by Veblen. If all you mean is that it's consumers complaining, then again, that will happen in socialism too. Broniki posted:You said you've worked for EA so I'm going to take your word for it. My info is at best second hand from knowing employees at Rockstar North and realtime who claimed that spending 1/3-1/2 of the budget on marketing wasn't uncommon (with the rest going towards the things you mentioned, as well as the general push for games to be 'open world' even if they don't need to be which takes a poo poo ton of work). Yes, marketing = advertising. It doesn't equal getting games journalists to review it. They will review any AAA game as a matter of course anyway. quote:Although I can attest first hand that indie success banks on either being part of the incredibly cliqueish western scene or a massive stroke of luck like 5NAF. Some Japanese indie game like Asteebreed or Crimzon Clover is never going to receive any attention no matter how solid they are because the language barrier prevents them from buddy-buddying with people who can write about them. So what? Yeah, foreign media of any type has trouble selling in the US. Games are actually more, not less, open to this. It's not because of the language barrier preventing people from writing about them. Western media sells in the west; this is hardly a revelation.
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Jul 8, 2015 14:40
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SedanChair posted:Again, if AGG is, then all of feminism is. All the battles for reproductive rights and workplace equality take place within the liberal concepts of freedom to choose and earn money. You do know there is many types of feminism?
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Jul 8, 2015 14:44
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duck monster posted:edit: Not touch the poop. You made a wise decision.
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Jul 8, 2015 14:53
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Fluo posted:You do know there is many types of feminism? Of course, and none of the Western forms of it are exempt from the phenomenon Zizek and BravestOfTheLamps make reference to. Western feminism is fundamentally about equal access to the benefits of a liberal society.
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Jul 8, 2015 14:54
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Obdicut posted:That's not the sociological definition; that was coined by Veblen. If all you mean is that it's consumers complaining, then again, that will happen in socialism too. "That's just the literal definition." You seem to be unaware of what a "consumer" is in a political context. In liberal democracy, consumption is not a necessity, it is a way of life. This is consumerist politics. You can see consumerist politics in the case fof Hatred. Gamers bought in protest, because consuming it was the right thing to do. SedanChair posted:Of course, and none of the Western forms of it are exempt from the phenomenon Zizek and BravestOfTheLamps make reference to. Western feminism is fundamentally about equal access to the benefits of a liberal society. Then you simply need to ask what these benefits of a liberal society are, and what liberal society is.
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Jul 8, 2015 15:11
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Broniki posted:You said you've worked for EA so I'm going to take your word for it. My info is at best second hand from knowing employees at Rockstar North and realtime who claimed that spending 1/3-1/2 of the budget on marketing wasn't uncommon (with the rest going towards the things you mentioned, as well as the general push for games to be 'open world' even if they don't need to be which takes a poo poo ton of work). "Marketing" doesn't mean journalists. It means advertising campaigns, television spots, that sort of thing. Even if you assumed that developers were bribing every game journalist in the world the amount of money they spend would still be significantly less than it takes to do a nationwide television campaign with commericals during major programming.
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Jul 8, 2015 15:19
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The most absurd part of all the journalismchat is the unsaid but blatant belief that Review Sites are dying in favor of Youtube Reviews, and this means that games feminism is fighting a losing battle. It's a case where Gamergate supporters have fully submerged themselves within their own debate flavor-aid; the battle is winnable! The enemy is dying! Youtube is here and it is Pure! The truth is that feminist critique will continue to exist within youtube reviews, and marketing departments will instead (and already are) bribe youtubers for favorable reviews and hold preview copies hostage for favorable press.
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Jul 8, 2015 15:36
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duck monster posted:edit: Not touch the poop. A wise man has entered the thread, all listen to the wise man. Queue obdicut interjecting on "What is wise?" "What is man?" (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 8, 2015 15:36
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Neurolimal posted:The most absurd part of all the journalismchat is the unsaid but blatant belief that Review Sites are dying in favor of Youtube Reviews, and this means that games feminism is fighting a losing battle. As long as the individual youtubers disclose their relations with the marketing departments, then gamergate has won. And if they are caught not disclosing, then expect a similiar backlash. Feminism is 100% compatible with gamergate.
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Jul 8, 2015 15:43
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Powercrazy posted:As long as the individual youtubers disclose their relations with the marketing departments, then gamergate has won. And if they are caught not disclosing, then expect a similiar backlash. The funny thing is that you really think this is true despite it happening right now with no backlash.
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Jul 8, 2015 15:47
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Powercrazy posted:As long as the individual youtubers disclose their relations with the marketing departments, then gamergate has won. And if they are caught not disclosing, then expect a similiar backlash. Why would this be a victory for gamergate when gamergate has never been about exposing marketer-journalist relations? quote:Feminism is 100% compatible with gamergate. This is highly debatable at best, unless your idea of good feminism is "never allowed to critique a game, unless the developer explicitly says I Hate Women and they are certain it wasnt said ironically."
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Jul 8, 2015 15:48
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Powercrazy posted:And if they are caught not disclosing, then expect a similiar backlash* *the next time reddit finds out that a lady in the games industry slept with someone who is not her monogamous partner.
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Jul 8, 2015 15:50
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ImpAtom posted:The funny thing is that you really think this is true despite it happening right now with no backlash. I agree. Remember the Shadow Of Mordor review thing? They gave it to youtubers but had a ton of restrictions on it (Can't show bad footage, can't say anything bad). The news broke out and even hit kotaku. The amount of backlash wasn't anything similar to what zoe quinn received.
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Jul 8, 2015 15:53
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Neurolimal posted:Why would this be a victory for gamergate when gamergate has never been about exposing marketer-journalist relations? Actually it's about ethics in gaming journalism.
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Jul 8, 2015 15:55
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Exmond posted:I agree. Remember the Shadow Of Mordor review thing? They gave it to youtubers but had a ton of restrictions on it (Can't show bad footage, can't say anything bad). The news broke out and even hit kotaku. The amount of backlash wasn't anything similar to what zoe quinn received. Hitting the nail right on the head. Actual scandal involving big sacks of money and high-profile publishers and youtubers? Barely a blip on the radar. A woman who made a freeware text-adventure about coping with depression may have had a relationship with someone in the industry at some point? Hound her incessantly for a year, call her dad in the middle of the night to scream how much of a whore she is, and when you start to look skeezy for doing this, assign her the codename 'Literally Who' so you can pretend that you've never cared about her and that this was all about Journalistic Ethics from the start. All the while continuing the exact same campaign. The writer that might have given her some positive press? He barely even got a mention. And of course, the positive press was a one-line mention in a list article of 50 games that got greenlit. Such is the power of Big Indie bribery. This has happened again and again. And it'll continue to happen, and people will shrug it off because it's 'just the internet'. The fact that there were as many as 8 Literally Whos (all women, last I checked) at one point really does sum up where Gamergate's energy has always been focused. Dominic White fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 16:08
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Then you simply need to ask what these benefits of a liberal society are, and what liberal society is. I already mentioned some of them. The right not to be compelled to carry pregnancies to term, for example. The right to equal pay, and equal treatment. The right to self-determination. Basically all of the rights outlined in charters and constitutions, which were once assumed to be owed only to white men. These are feminist issues, and games are just one place where the perceptions of individuals need to be challenged lest they lead to the perpetuation of misogyny and, as a result, unequal rights. This is why "AGG" is no less legitimate a struggle than the rest of feminism, and why it is not a meaningful critique to call it misguided because it deals with consumer culture. Ask your god Zizek; he will tell you that for the foreseeable future, liberal consumer capitalism is the world we have, the world we have to deal with, and the context in which rights need to be demanded. At present, anti-capitalism has no plan or solution for these issues, because it has no power and no cultural currency.
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Jul 8, 2015 16:17
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I've been told somebody ruined Mega Man that isn't a Japanese man?
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Jul 8, 2015 16:46
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Since the OP doesn't explain what gamergate is about, I do not know what it is all about and can't comment. I do however have a personal experience to share. I was playing an online game and arguing with people about Edward Snowden in the chat, and somone told me that the real traitors were "Anita sarkeesian," and a man whose name I don't remember. That they were as bad as Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. I vaguely remembered having heard that name before, and asked who she was. I was told to just go and watch her videos, so I assumed she was somone on YouTube. I pressed for an explanation as to why she was a traitor to her country, and eventually learned that if she got her way, she would take away video games. And that this was a wrongdoing on par with giving secrets to the USSR. Anyhow, while I find it hard to believe that gamer gate is something that matters, I thoight I would share my own personal experience with it.
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Jul 8, 2015 16:51
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SedanChair posted:I already mentioned some of them. The right not to be compelled to carry pregnancies to term, for example. The right to equal pay, and equal treatment. The right to self-determination. Basically all of the rights outlined in charters and constitutions, which were once assumed to be owed only to white men. These are feminist issues, and games are just one place where the perceptions of individuals need to be challenged lest they lead to the perpetuation of misogyny and, as a result, unequal rights. This is why "AGG" is no less legitimate a struggle than the rest of feminism, and why it is not a meaningful critique to call it misguided because it deals with consumer culture. Ask your god Zizek; he will tell you that for the foreseeable future, liberal consumer capitalism is the world we have, the world we have to deal with, and the context in which rights need to be demanded. At present, anti-capitalism has no plan or solution for these issues, because it has no power and no cultural currency. I don't see what the problem is here, you're mostly agreeing with me. The next step is of course not to be afraid of taking the correct (anti-capitalist) approach and analysing these conflicts through that lens. That's how you can realise that "AGGers"/SJWs/liberals are ultimately part of the same problem. You need to distance yourself from the fear of toxic subjects.
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Jul 8, 2015 16:52
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You wont find many people not opposed to a socialist state without potential for seizure by a corrupt dictatorship, but history has shown that as being preeety hard to pull off; Cuba has shown what a small relatively self-contained country with a dictator who has at least an iota of care for the populace would look like, and it still involves significant sacrifices the majority of people (including intellectual communists) would not be willing to make. With these constraints in mind it is not fruitless to inject socialist progress into the capitalist model, even if said model is inherently biased and broken. This is an interesting convo and deserves its own thread seeing as people are getting annoyed at following two separate debates at once.
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Jul 8, 2015 16:52
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hakimashou posted:Since the OP doesn't explain what gamergate is about, I do not know what it is all about and can't comment. Sounds about right for Gamergate.
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Jul 8, 2015 16:52
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I don't see what the problem is here, you're mostly agreeing with me. It's not the correct approach because it's totally impotent. And it's not a toxic subject, it's a functionally meaningless one.
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Jul 8, 2015 16:57
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It's fundamentally a really lame culture war. Even the games journalism angle is based in gamer 'culture' being threatened with change, because art games and ~SJW~ themes are being embraced by reviewers.
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Jul 8, 2015 16:58
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SedanChair posted:It's not the correct approach because it's totally impotent. You mistake convenience for righteousness. Being correct means admitting that our system is wholly broken and there is nothing that can be done to fix it, and that we're passive observers in the looting and destruction of our planet. And the fear of toxic subjects is the fear of those people. e: Exclamation Marx posted:It's fundamentally a really lame culture war. Even the games journalism angle is based in gamer 'culture' being threatened with change, because art games and ~SJW~ themes are being embraced by reviewers. To me it's specifically a culture war between socially conscious liberals and naive liberals who ally themselves with insane idiots. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 16:59
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hakimashou posted:Anyhow, while I find it hard to believe that gamer gate is something that matters, I thoight I would share my own personal experience with it. It shouldn't matter. It's just a bunch of idiot cranks blaming feminism for the downfall of western civilization. Unfortunately, it does matter because they got organized, they have their own sites now and ties to all manner of lovely groups online, and if they pick you out as a target, expect any attempt to google your name to result in a dozen propaganda pieces about how you're a monster. Your employer will be bombarded with mails demanding you be fired for your crimes (whatever they've chosen them to be), your family will be phoned and threatened. If you have any site, it will be hacked. You will find strange and interesting things delivered to your door. If you plan on speaking anywhere in public, they'll have people there to watch and/or disrupt. And if you're really on their shitlist, there's even been swatting (one womans dog is confirmed dead because of this) and even a series of bomb threats for Sarkeesian. This has happened to a whole bunch of people I know. Because videogames sure do need protecting. I've been a gamer for nearly 30 years now, and been writing about them part time for about 6-7 now, and this is the worst, most depressing loving thing I've ever seen come out of the hobby. Dominic White fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 17:01
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Exclamation Marx posted:It's fundamentally a really lame culture war. Even the games journalism angle is based in gamer 'culture' being threatened with change, because art games and ~SJW~ themes are being embraced by reviewers. It's no different than any other space in which white dudes suddenly feel super threatened because their hobby or their workplace or culture at large doesn't exclusively cater to them anymore. Dudes flipping out because some writers are filling a demand for socially conscious games criticism is fundamentally the same phenomenon as people getting upset because black folks have the gall to object to the Confederate flag flying on public property, or that a non-white President very occasionally mentions race issues, or that they have to pay into health insurance that covers pregnancy-related things EVEN THOUGH I DON'T HAVE A VAGINA GOD DAMMIT.
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Jul 8, 2015 17:08
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:To me it's specifically a culture war between socially conscious liberals and naive liberals who ally themselves with insane idiots. Yes, obviously. This whole thing is pathetic because the culture that's being fought over isn't really a culture at all. But that's kind of the scope of the discussion and I don't think you're going to have much success trying to reframe it!
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Jul 8, 2015 17:10
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Being correct means admitting that our system is wholly broken and there is nothing that can be done to fix it, and that we're passive observers in the looting and destruction of our planet. Then being "correct" or not is of no importance. Evrart Claire fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 17:11
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