|
Hulk Krogan posted:It's no different than any other space in which white dudes O_O. Why did you put race into this?
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 06:40 |
|
|
While I won't deny that most of the harassment blamed at Zoe was due to misogyny, another factor was the fact that she talked a lot on twitter about how horrible her situation was. Trolls love targets that they can get a reaction out of, and there's a very good reason why law enforcement tells victims of harassment and death threats not to make their situation public.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:13
|
|
|
Exmond posted:O_O. Why did you put race into this? It's already in it. Nobody here "put it in."
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:13
|
|
|
Exclamation Marx posted:Yes, obviously. This whole thing is pathetic because the culture that's being fought over isn't really a culture at all. But that's kind of the scope of the discussion and I don't think you're going to have much success trying to reframe it! As I said earlier I think it is because for the people who cling most tightly to it, it was a culture because it was niche enough they could define themselves by it. Nothing has meaningfully changed except they can no longer depend on it catering just to them. If there are fewer games being made 'for them' now it is because the industry has diversified, not because people are talking their games.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:13
|
|
|
Zerilan posted:The being "correct" or not is of no importance. Pretty much this. It's like people in minwage thread getting mad that people are arguing in favor of a minwage increase instead of a federally supplied minimum income. Everyone on SA will agree with that, but the majority know that we are not in a position to implement it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:14
|
|
|
Hadaka Apron posted:While I won't deny that most of the harassment blamed at Zoe was due to misogyny, another factor was the fact that she talked a lot on twitter about how horrible her situation was. Trolls love targets that they can get a reaction out of, and there's a very good reason why law enforcement tells victims of harassment and death threats not to make their situation public. Yeah. Good point.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:15
|
|
|
Exclamation Marx posted:It's fundamentally a really lame culture war. Even the games journalism angle is based in gamer 'culture' being threatened with change, because art games and ~SJW~ themes are being embraced by reviewers. From what I could glean, it seems like an attempt to have controversy for people who aren't engaged with the real world enough to be engaged with or affected by real controversies. "Now we can have our own controversy too!" Another personal experience: in an MMO, there was a crazy attention-seeking person who tried very hard to create something he called "trollgate" in response to goons and others. He made a website where he wrote about it, and posted all over the game's forums about it, and eventually wrote a letter to the CEO of the company that did the game. It didn't work and he just quit. From what it sounds like, the gamegate people are bad people who do bad things. For me, beyond that, I don't think knowing the particulars matters.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:16
|
|
|
hakimashou posted:Since the OP doesn't explain what gamergate is about, I do not know what it is all about and can't comment. The TL;DR version is some woman who makes indie video games once slept with some video game journalist who had no editorial control at the company. MRAs got riled up about this. Nobody gave a poo poo but them, so they started harassing and sending death threats to everyone involved.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:19
|
|
|
Hadaka Apron posted:While I won't deny that most of the harassment blamed at Zoe was due to misogyny, another factor was the fact that she talked a lot on twitter about how horrible her situation was. Trolls love targets that they can get a reaction out of, and there's a very good reason why law enforcement tells victims of harassment and death threats not to make their situation public. Well, she didn't shut up and go away. She chose to make noise about it. And now many major sites including Twitter have new anti-harassment policies, organizations have been set up to help support people being targeted by online hate groups, she got to speak on this across TV and radio in several different countries, and she was invited to Washington DC to talk to the US government about potential changes in the law to protect under fire like this. Edit: And any attempt to google the above event is, of course, headed by GG propaganda pieces about how it was a 'fake' congressional briefing, and how the media is lying and the US government would NEVER cave to the will of such a duplicitous harpy. You think any of this would have happened if she just quietly disappeared like the trolls apparently wanted her to? I'm pretty sure that the 'don't feed the trolls' and 'don't talk about harassment online' stuff is the reason why things have gotten as bad as they have. Dominic White fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Jul 8, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:21
|
|
|
Hadaka Apron posted:While I won't deny that most of the harassment blamed at Zoe was due to misogyny, another factor was the fact that she talked a lot on twitter about how horrible her situation was. Trolls love targets that they can get a reaction out of, and there's a very good reason why law enforcement tells victims of harassment and death threats not to make their situation public. Please tell me what key differences exist between this argument and the classic "I'm not saying she deserved to be raped, but" argument.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:22
|
|
|
Hadaka Apron posted:While I won't deny that most of the harassment blamed at Zoe was due to misogyny, another factor was the fact that she talked a lot on twitter about how horrible her situation was. Trolls love targets that they can get a reaction out of, and there's a very good reason why law enforcement tells victims of harassment and death threats not to make their situation public. Law enforcement doesn't exactly have a good track record on silencing women's voices. What was she supposed to do, enter a nunnery?
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:22
|
|
Ddraig posted:Please tell me what key differences exist between this argument and the classic "I'm not saying she deserved to be raped, but" argument. If I say that the Maginot Line was a bad idea and that France got overrun by the Nazis so quickly because they were planning for WW1-style trench warfare, am I saying that France was asking for it?
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:25
|
|
|
Hadaka Apron posted:While I won't deny that most of the harassment blamed at Zoe was due to misogyny, another factor was the fact that she talked a lot on twitter about how horrible her situation was. Trolls love targets that they can get a reaction out of, and there's a very good reason why law enforcement tells victims of harassment and death threats not to make their situation public. "Be quiet and suffer in silence, woman." It's not really "another factor" if it is also rooted in misogyny.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:25
|
|
Serf posted:"Be quiet and suffer in silence, woman." It's not really "another factor" if it is also rooted in misogyny. But responding to the trolls doesn't work. I mean, Chris-chan responded to trolls all the time and all it showed them was that he was an easy mark.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:26
|
|
|
Years ago I was in a D&D campaign with Zoe Quinn, AMA. My girlfriend at the time and I used to play Dance Dance Revolution at the mall, this is how we met her. This was back in like 2005 or so. Lets Pickle fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Jul 8, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:27
|
|
|
Hadaka Apron posted:If I say that the Maginot Line was a bad idea and that France got overrun by the Nazis so quickly because they were planning for WW1-style trench warfare, am I saying that France was asking for it? I don't really think the actions of a sovereign state preparing for war is really comparable to a human woman being attacked for no reason then being told to shut up and suffer her abuse in silence.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:27
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:The funny thing is that you really think this is true despite it happening right now with no backlash. There was some FTC related thing to sponsored YouTube videos where the creators don't need to properly disclose the partnership. It's still up for debate if a notice at the start or a simple line in the description should be done, most have err'd on the side of caution and just disclosed it because it's good form and lets the viewer know. Edit - This is the article I was referring to: http://www.polygon.com/2014/1/23/5337574/the-ftc-on-paying-youtubers-to-endorse-games Mekchu fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Jul 8, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:28
|
|
|
Hadaka Apron posted:But responding to the trolls doesn't work. I mean, Chris-chan responded to trolls all the time and all it showed them was that he was an easy mark. "Gamersgate" is now associated with a bunch of misogynists so I'd say it did work.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:28
|
|
|
computer parts posted:"Gamersgate" is now associated with a bunch of misogynists so I'd say it did work. The GBS thread disagrees, it is associated with Serious Questions About Games Journalism.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:31
|
|
|
I've read more articles about online herassment against women since gamergate picked up. I'm not sure if it's connected.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:34
|
|
|
Zerilan posted:Then being "correct" or not is of no importance. Being correct is everything! You shouldn't resort to nihilism simply because there is no hope.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:34
|
|
|
Nonsense posted:The GBS thread disagrees, it is associated with Serious Questions About Games Journalism. That's about the only place. "Actually, it's about ethics in game journalism" became a meme so prevalent that non-gamers were saying it. If you want to waste time reading the comments on a "know your meme" site you can see how petty GGers actually are.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:35
|
|
|
computer parts posted:That's about the only place. "Actually, it's about ethics in game journalism" became a meme so prevalent that non-gamers were saying it. The moment I knew it had become a joke was when it appeared, apropos of nothing, in a Grantland article.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:42
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:As I said earlier I think it is because for the people who cling most tightly to it, it was a culture because it was niche enough they could define themselves by it. Nothing has meaningfully changed except they can no longer depend on it catering just to them. If there are fewer games being made 'for them' now it is because the industry has diversified, not because people are talking their games. But is this actually true, or is it developers reaction to loud criticism? Because it seems that the criticism, coupled with the success of phone games showing that there is a large market for women out there, has had an impact. And it is a zero sum game, as the amount of funding is limited and the more games not targeted at the previous demographic, the less they have overall. So "Gamers" are in a sense, "losing" something. Couple that fact, with the loud activists saying that the games they like are too violent, too sexualized, too "childish", racist"(all criticisms that they don't agree with) and you have a ready made group of people who see "SJW's" coming to make their games Politically Correct. Basically, I'm saying that this backlash was inevitable. The demographics are changing, and the "SJW's" are still talking poo poo about "their" games. What's both disturbing and disappointing, is the seemingly violent obsession with the sex lives of women involved in games and game criticism and rallying around a hashtag about it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:44
|
|
computer parts posted:"Gamersgate" is now associated with a bunch of misogynists so I'd say it did work. quote:Announcement: GAMERSGATE.COM is NOT Gamergate!
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:45
|
|
|
This is unfortunate. It's also a measured response, one that Zoe Quinn decided to do when attacked by another bunch of simpering clowns. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Would you agree or is your posting of that evidence that certain people are deserving of making their side of the story known but others less so?
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:56
|
|
Ddraig posted:This is unfortunate. It's also a measured response, one that Zoe Quinn decided to do when attacked by another bunch of simpering clowns. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. I'm saying that an established business that gets harassment probably has some kind of PR working for it, which would offer much better advice than an untrained person posting on their own Twitter.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:57
|
|
|
Did Zoe go speak to Congress about her ordeal? Not that this should be about her, but that is interesting that things took off that far. I just remember the early hell thread when it still had doobies dogs and then stopped following everything.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 17:58
|
|
|
Hadaka Apron posted:I'm saying that an established business that gets harassment probably has some kind of PR working for it, which would offer much better advice than an untrained person posting on their own Twitter. What training is there for having your life suddenly and irrevocably changed overnight through no fault of your own?
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 18:01
|
|
|
Nonsense posted:Did Zoe go speak to Congress about her ordeal? Not that this should be about her, but that is interesting that things took off that far. I just remember the early hell thread when it still had doobies dogs and then stopped following everything. Yep, she was there to speak at a congressional briefing, had TV appearances on BBC, CNN, NBC, etc, plenty more radio interviews, started her own anti-harassment organization and is assisting another. Apparently there's multiple FBI investigations in progress regarding the worst of Gamergate too. And the guy who started all this poo poo, Eron Gjoni, is currently under about eight different flavours of restraining order that he keeps breaking. Of course, he just has to ask on the GG hashtag for funds whenever he needs to lawyer up. The first time he was up for a court appearance, they funded his defense within an hour. (Judge still smacked him down) poo poo got kinda big and very scary. Dominic White fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Jul 8, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 18:05
|
|
|
Dominic White posted:You think any of this would have happened if she just quietly disappeared like the trolls apparently wanted her to? I'm pretty sure that the 'don't feed the trolls' and 'don't talk about harassment online' stuff is the reason why things have gotten as bad as they have. There are female game devs out there that I know personally who are being very careful, very quiet, not making too much noise on social media, because it is pretty clear that you can have your career ruined by this howling horde of trolls. Not everyone has the brass balls of Zoe Quinn or the iron skin of Anita Sarkeesian. Most female developers want to make games and go home at the end of the day. Unfortunately, this is precisely what the trolls want. They want little girls to be seen, and not heard.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 18:06
|
|
|
Nonsense posted:Did Zoe go speak to Congress about her ordeal? Not that this should be about her, but that is interesting that things took off that far. I just remember the early hell thread when it still had doobies dogs and then stopped following everything. Yes. From what I remember, there was some hashtag related to the briefing. GGers, being who they are, decided to flood the hashtag with a bunch of their bullshit. Which meant that the people at the hearing pulled out tablets and could give the members present at the meeting a real time demonstration of exactly what they were there talking about.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 18:14
|
|
|
Dominic White posted:Yep, she was there to speak at a congressional briefing, had TV appearances on BBC, CNN, NBC, etc, plenty more radio interviews, started her own anti-harassment organization and is assisting another. Apparently there's multiple FBI investigations in progress regarding the worst of Gamergate too. And the guy who started all this poo poo, Eron Gjoni, is currently under about eight different flavours of restraining order that he keeps breaking. Of course, he just has to ask on the GG hashtag for funds whenever he needs to lawyer up. The first time he was up for a court appearance, they funded his defense within an hour. I think Eron needs to get some counselling and needs to drop the whole zoe thing. On the other hand (incoming unpopular opinion) I handled the whole five guys dumb stuff just like I did with Tiger woods. Took a look at Erons post, knowing its biased, looked at any defending comments and made my own opinion. The way it blew up was terrible and a lot of despicable people did a lot of despicable things. I think the massive difference in reactions to the Tiger Woods controversy vs the Five guys thing points out a lot of worrisome things in "gamer culture" and "gaming journalism".
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 18:18
|
|
|
Exmond posted:I think Eron needs to get some counselling and needs to drop the whole zoe thing. Here's the thing: Why do you even need to "handle" this information? It is quite literally none of your business. "In the public interest" is not the same as "what the public is interested in"
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 18:20
|
|
|
Exmond posted:I think Eron needs to get some counselling and needs to drop the whole zoe thing. After a lovely breakup, doesn't everyone want to have a huge organization spontaneously form around the idea that their ex is literally the worst person in the world? GamerGate are not doing this guy's mental health any favors. Someone needed to tell him long ago "Dude, she was no good for you! You are well shot of her! Let's go to the pub." Not to pander to his every paranoia and grievance. He even lost his job because he was so obsessed. It's tragic, literally.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 18:24
|
|
|
Ddraig posted:Here's the thing: Why do you even need to "handle" this information? It is quite literally none of your business. Edit: In response to "Why do we even need to handle this information" Why did people need to handle the Tiger woods controversy? Through no fault of my own the information was released and brought to my attention. Its not like I purposefully looked for it. It was brought to my attention and I decided to form an opinion. I decided to try and make an informed opinion so dug a little. I find it odd that there is a crowd that is incensed that people formed an opinion based off of the news. Its the same thing as when you hear about "GG" being a bunch of harassers. You form an opinion. If you heard a game developer is supporting GG you can form your own opinion. Technically the game developers belief is "none of your business" but you still get to act on that information.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 18:26
|
|
|
Exmond posted:Edit: In response to "Why do we even need to handle this information" Why did people need to handle the Tiger woods controversy? That's a good question, and it's sort of the one I was posing to you. People have a right to a private life. I don't think the details of what Tiger Woods and Zoe Quinn do in the bedroom is anyone's business but their own. It's not news, it's not even journalism, it's the literal definition of sensational gutter press reporting and it would be a constant source of amusement to me that a crusade with the facade of being about ethical journalism started off the back of the Zoe Post if it wasn't so terribly depressing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 18:34
|
|
|
Ddraig posted:That's a good question, and it's sort of the one I was posing to you. Hmm, Ill try to answer the question. I support I handled the information because it kept popping up. Seeing GG mentioned in the various something awful threads I follow I decided to see what was going on. So I guess I decided to handle the information because it was appearing in the forum threads I read. In order to keep up with the threads and participate in them I decided to see what was going on. As well if you want to go risk vs reward I lose nothing in checking out what everyone is talking about. The amount of effort required to find out more information about the event isn't very large either, tons of people have opinions on it that I respect.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 18:55
|
|
|
BarbarianElephant posted:There are female game devs out there that I know personally who are being very careful, very quiet, not making too much noise on social media, because it is pretty clear that you can have your career ruined by this howling horde of trolls. Not everyone has the brass balls of Zoe Quinn or the iron skin of Anita Sarkeesian. Most female developers want to make games and go home at the end of the day. Yeah, I know a good few people who are keeping a very low profile simply because they're working on something or have said things in the past that would anger the swarm, and they don't have the time nor energy to deal with it. It's why I'm glad whenever a prominent white dude (I say this as a less prominent white dude) draws some fire. When Tim Schafer made fun of Gamergate at the Game Developers Conference closing show (fun aside: every official GDC twitter tag was rendered useless because of GG spam, porn , abuse and worse for the ENTIRE EVENT - press and developers alike had to move to IRC to get their info). He was their Public Enemy #1 for a good week or so, and everything they could talk about. The abuse of lower-profile folks let up for a while when that happened. Dominic White fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Jul 8, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 19:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 06:40 |
|
|
The thing about prominent white dudes is that they are never under any real danger from GamerGate. They have PR people to douse the flames, IT people to secure the company's website, and adoring fans to take their side. None of which counts for people like Zoe Quinn, who was absolutely nobody before she got pounced on, just another barely-known indie dev schlepping her laptop round to a bunch of little conventions. That's what makes it scary; you used to have to be somebody to get harassed (such as Bethesda for making Fallout 3 3D, or Bioware for having gay NPCs) and that meant you had support. But now, you can become public enemy number 1 just by being a woman with a game or an opinion.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2015 19:24
|
|