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Discendo Vox posted:There are a number of cases where the game has to correct something that occurs in a cutscene. For a couple of the clearer examples: quote:2. In the cutscenes showing Penguin at the crimescene, the game tells you visually, early, that Roman has a pacemaker and this is why Penguin knows that it's a body double (the text actually appears onscreen, something like "no pacemaker"-it's why Penguin opens his shirt with his umbrella). Penguin's goons in that scene are wearing nifty outfits that only appeared in concept art. Some slicing and dicing went on with that scene to let the pacemaker exposition happen later. quote:3. Ingame, The Jezebel Plaza deal is between Penguin's men and a group of generic thugs. The cutscene was recut to obscure it (one sign is the use of voiceover before and during the scene to set it up), but the people buying the guns in the cutscene are wearing outfits that are concept art for Bane's army. quote:There are smaller ones, too- Alfred's crazy mood swings, the use of ingame character interactions to change the context of a cutscene immediately before and afterward, weird cuts and layout shifts around the Copperhead fight, a "hidden" crime scene in the bank(though that last one was probably caused by other development issues). The devs had to spend a lot of time trying to readjust the game to fit the narrative of the final script/cutscenes to the game. I'm glad they did it, because the cutscene prose is soul-crushingly awful, and some (not all) of the in-engine writing is quite good. There are a bundle of plot holes and inconsistencies as a result, though. theflyingorc fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 18:00
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SonicRulez posted:That's stupid. You're saying Deathstroke drew his sword, decided it was a game and not serious, and then re-sheathed his sword. Then he realized Batman's legit and it's NOT a game, so he re-drew his sword. I'm much more inclined to believe Vox if I had to go with a theory. There is no explanation as to why Deathstroke would draw his katana and then immediately put it away. You can like Origins without having to make excuses for it. It's a stupid cutscene except he has done exactly that stupid thing in the comics so... yes. Deathstroke is a terrible character who does stupid things. (This is also true in Knight where his plot makes even less sense.) That said, even if the opposite is true, it doesn't mean remotely what he says. It could also mean simply they redesigned the way the combat phase of Deathstroke's boss fight plays out and it made more sense to redo that then redo an entire cutscene because they adjusted the boss fight. It is not even remotely proof that "all the cutscenes were done" or anything like that. Even if a change did occur there (which is possible!), it doesn't support what he is saying. Now, the Deathstroke DLC character is lazy as poo poo because he is mostly recycled material but that doesn't actually back up the idea that it was cut from a DLC. It just means it is a low-effort DLC character ala Harley Quinn in Knight. (I don't know if Red Hood is any good.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 18:01
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The Deathstroke point has merit, but it doesn't support his grand thesis at all. You don't overhire to make cutscenes and then, I dunno, fire them for the last 9 months of development? Some of the rewrites probably DID occur, but most likely 25% or less of the way through the development process.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:03
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theflyingorc posted:The Deathstroke point has merit, but it doesn't support his grand thesis at all. You don't overhire to make cutscenes and then, I dunno, fire them for the last 9 months of development? I agree, it doesn't make sense- but there are similar problems with cutscenes all through the game. Many of the ones from the early game are more easily detected. I like using the Deathstroke example because it's the most noticeable and the easiest for people to separately check. I think WB Montreal got royally screwed on development time and resources, and this included ending access to whatever resources were needed for rendering cutscenes. As a separate but related matter, they made design mistakes that a better funded team would have been able to go back and correct, but which wound up left over in the final product.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:12
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I didn't notice any of this conspiracy poo poo in Origins. Any weirdness was instantly reconciled with "cash grab game" in my head.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:13
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please don't give this retarded theorycrafting the designation of a "thesis"
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Jul 8, 2015 18:13
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Slade is a relic from the 90s and is like the epitome of the style of that time: stupid, really forced 'COOL' and 'BADASS' and trying way too hard to be intimidating. Also bandoleers and pouches and guns and katanas. In fact, his Arkham appearances are the most comic-accurate versions of him ever. Teen Titans was an epiphany for the character that got ignored and sidelined.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:14
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MinibarMatchman posted:please don't give this retarded theorycrafting the designation of a "thesis" There is a level of irony in my wording. But seriously - think about it from a business standpoint. Where did all their cinematic creators GO after they made all these cutscenes? Yes, the game clearly had limited time compared to Rocksteady's releases, but that's just not how a development pipeline works. This kind of thing exists in all games that aren't in the "we basically have an infinite budget" category. Related: I can't imagine how bad a game Arkham Knight would have been with it's original release date. It's not overstuffed with content, so they must have used the time mainly on polish / system improvement. The game scheduled for last August must have sucked.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:19
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Discendo Vox posted:I agree, it doesn't make sense- but there are similar problems with cutscenes all through the game. Many of the ones from the early game are more easily detected. I like using the Deathstroke example because it's the most noticeable and the easiest for people to separately check. I think WB Montreal got royally screwed on development time and resources, and this included ending access to whatever resources were needed for rendering cutscenes. As a separate but related matter, they made design mistakes that a better funded team would have been able to go back and correct, but which wound up left over in the final product. They were obviously rushed but that doesn't actually match any of your conspiracy stuff. In particular and especially after Arkham Knight it's very hard to believe that the Joker wasn't a major intentional part of the game. In fact an "Origins" game that doesn't revolve around the Joker and Batman doesn't make much sense when it is clear the Arkham franchise is explicitly about the two of them from start to finish. Black Mask is a rather nothing villain to headline a game but conveniently has an all-covering mask and a design that is close enough to the DKR Joker that you can do a reference during the unmasking. (And we are 3 for 3 on post-Asylum City games featuring a major villain who is upstaged in presence by the Joker. The dude is popular.) theflyingorc posted:Related: I can't imagine how bad a game Arkham Knight would have been with it's original release date. It's not overstuffed with content, so they must have used the time mainly on polish / system improvement. The game scheduled for last August must have sucked. The rumor is that it was basically the PC release but worse, if you believe anonymous QA testers.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:23
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theflyingorc posted:But seriously - think about it from a business standpoint. Where did all their cinematic creators GO after they made all these cutscenes? Yes, the game clearly had limited time compared to Rocksteady's releases, but that's just not how a development pipeline works. This kind of thing exists in all games that aren't in the "we basically have an infinite budget" category. I agree on both counts! My "thesis" is that the development pipeline for Origins didn't work. And given its problems, the excavation of Knight's development timeline is going to be similarly interesting, if not as fraught.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:25
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theflyingorc posted:Related: I can't imagine how bad a game Arkham Knight would have been with it's original release date. It's not overstuffed with content, so they must have used the time mainly on polish / system improvement. The game scheduled for last August must have sucked.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:26
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Star War Sex Parrot posted:Accounts of people who saw it behind closed doors at GDC 2014 said it was broken beyond belief -- we're talking shouldn't even have been shown behind an NDA, it was so rough. Can't believe they even pretended it would be out in 2014 at the announcement, but presumably that was WBIE's party line. Which, of course, probably led to the lack of polish of certain things like the tank battles - you can't tell if things are fun if they're too broken to play.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:31
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Star War Sex Parrot posted:Accounts of people who saw it behind closed doors at GDC 2014 said it was broken beyond belief -- we're talking shouldn't even have been shown behind an NDA, it was so rough. Can't believe they even pretended it would be out in 2014 at the announcement, but presumably that was WBIE's party line. yeah from what I read the developers were astounded they got it working at all. it's pretty amazing actually, given how great it runs on consoles and how it looks. this is coming out of a year where Witcher 3 on consoles didn't run very well at all, and people reportedly had trouble with Bloodborne stuttering, too
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Jul 8, 2015 18:32
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Is there a particular common source for all of these release glitch problems? On one level, it seems like graphics are a major problem source every year for every AAA game, but some of these games seem to also have deeper mechanical problems. Is this the new normal, a product of increasing hardware and graphics demands?
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Jul 8, 2015 18:38
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theflyingorc posted:Which, of course, probably led to the lack of polish of certain things like the tank battles - you can't tell if things are fun if they're too broken to play. The Tank battles were in roughly the same state they are now at E3 last year. I suspect they had a working system and then the other problems basically prevented anything more from being done. There are a lot of Arkham Knight things which imply they had more ideas planned. Like Vehicle Takedowns are in the game but beyond pointless and I don't even think tutorialed to you. There are like three segments in the game where Bat-Assisted Takedowns are meaningfully usable despite having a dedicated upgrade for them. Hush in general. Discendo Vox posted:Is there a particular common source for all of these release glitch problems? On one level, it seems like graphics are a major problem source every year for every AAA game, but some of these games seem to also have deeper mechanical problems. Is this the new normal, a product of increasing hardware and graphics demands? These problems are not new. They've existed in games for a while. Most major releases have some significant problems. Knight only really stands out because the PC port was exceptionally awful. Games are complex to make and the development cycle for them doesn't really allow the development time necessary for proper polish unless you're Nintendo and willing to sit on a game for years. (And sometimes not even then!)
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Jul 8, 2015 18:39
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The gliding in this game is cool. Are there a lot of predator/combatchallenges postgame with the AR stuff like City? I hope so
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Jul 8, 2015 18:40
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fish fingers posted:The gliding in this game is cool. Nope.  There are all of 4 combat challenges, I think 5 Predator challenges and then a whole shitload of Batmobile challenges. The combat challenges are two Bat-challenges, one Azrael semi-infinite challenge and a Nightwing/Batman duo room challenge. None of are the 'wave' type challenges from the previous games.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:41
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Discendo Vox posted:Is there a particular common source for all of these release glitch problems? On one level, it seems like graphics are a major problem source every year for every AAA game, but some of these games seem to also have deeper mechanical problems. Is this the new normal, a product of increasing hardware and graphics demands? Increased publisher control on things like release date, increased specialization of coders leading to not necessarily fully grasping how their decisions will affect other parts of the product, and the knowledge that you can patch after release.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:43
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Those were about the answers I expected. It sounds like the PC port development, and especially its testing, is going to be very interesting to learn about, if we get that chance. As hackers continue to open the game up, it will be interesting to see what made the different parts of the game so unstable.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:45
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fish fingers posted:The gliding in this game is cool.  (esp. with the boost) I still fly around when I can as opposed to Batmobiling (which, after a tank battle, I want nothing more than to get out of it)fish fingers posted:Are there a lot of predator/combat challenges postgame with the AR stuff like City? I hope so
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Jul 8, 2015 18:45
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Now you can have your very own Professor Pyg action figure at home!
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Jul 8, 2015 18:46
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redbackground posted:
Flight is objectively better than the batmobile for travel anyway. It's faster, as the crowd flies instead of over the streets, and you need to do it to run across certain sidequests anyway.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:47
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ImpAtom posted:Nope. I've seen 3 of each for Combat and Predator in the AR screen. I guess I didn't unlock the Azrael one yet. I'm not sure if you're talking about stuff you access on the map but I'm only counting the stuff you can pick from the main menu. In any case, challenge maps are on the DLC menu--not really encouraging but the director of the game has retweeted back to people who offered some dumb petition to include traditional Maps for replay, so at least they kind of know people really miss that poo poo.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:47
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MinibarMatchman posted:I've seen 3 of each for Combat and Predator in the AR screen. I guess I didn't unlock the Azrael one yet. I'm not sure if you're talking about stuff you access on the map but I'm only counting the stuff you can pick from the main menu. In any case, challenge maps are on the DLC menu--not really encouraging but the director of the game has retweeted back to people who offered some dumb petition to include traditional Maps for replay, so at least they kind of know people really miss that poo poo. The stuff on the map and the stuff on the main screen are the same thing unfortunately. You can just access them the same way.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:48
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ImpAtom posted:Nope. loving Boo. Hope the dlc has some...
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Jul 8, 2015 18:48
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ImpAtom posted:The stuff on the map and the stuff on the main screen are the same thing unfortunately. You can just access them the same way. ah ok, I've heard conflicting things about whether or not certain challenges were only in the overworld
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Jul 8, 2015 18:49
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Discendo Vox posted:Those were about the answers I expected. It sounds like the PC port development, and especially its testing, is going to be very interesting to learn about, if we get that chance. As hackers continue to open the game up, it will be interesting to see what made the different parts of the game so unstable. It's probably pretty simple - console development means that you're making a product for EXACTLY the hardware spec that's sitting in front of you - if you want to know if applying a certain effect will strain your system, you just build the code and run the scenario. PC development isn't so simple. You can make everything work perfectly on the computer in front of you, and it literally has issues on 99% of other machines that have different hardware capabilities, or just does operations in a SLIGHTLY different order/timing that means that what you expect to happen doesn't. A game that spent months trying to get it to JUST. WORK. probably didn't have forward-thinking development for programming techniques and many of them are probably awful on certain, or even many/most, types of hardware.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:50
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ImpAtom posted:Flight is objectively better than the batmobile for travel anyway. It's faster, as the crowd flies instead of over the streets, and you need to do it to run across certain sidequests anyway. I found that for large distances, the Batmobile was usually faster (but not by a gigantic margin). There are some races that are a nightmare if you try to do it without the car. MinibarMatchman posted:I've seen 3 of each for Combat and Predator in the AR screen. I guess I didn't unlock the Azrael one yet. I'm not sure if you're talking about stuff you access on the map but I'm only counting the stuff you can pick from the main menu. In any case, challenge maps are on the DLC menu--not really encouraging but the director of the game has retweeted back to people who offered some dumb petition to include traditional Maps for replay, so at least they kind of know people really miss that poo poo.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:51
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theflyingorc posted:I found that for large distances, the Batmobile was usually faster (but not by a gigantic margin). There are some races that are a nightmare if you try to do it without the car. Are you including the speed boost from ejecting out of the Batmobile there? Using that I tended to have ages to spare for any race.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:52
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Not a body pillow, not interested. theflyingorc posted:I'd be willing to bet that challenge maps are a big deal to like 10% of their playerbase, but it's a vocal 10%. I really can't fault them for not prioritizing them. It does sound like the scoring structures for them aren't too well-balanced, either.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:54
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ImpAtom posted:Are you including the speed boost from ejecting out of the Batmobile there? Using that I tended to have ages to spare for any race. I don't know. I think the car still has a higher rate of speed, especially if you keep boosting, but obviously it can't go in straight lines.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:54
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On NG+ I've developed a habit of standing behind drones then calling the Batmobile so it smashes them apart in slow motion, Bruce leaping into the air all melodramatically.  I have a horrible feeling I'm going to spend too much time with this game, guys.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:54
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fish fingers posted:loving Boo. I'm pretty sure it will. They've announced DLC for Nightwing, Robin, and Catwoman. I assume that will translate to challenge maps in the same way the Nightwing and Robin DLC for City did. We all know they won't be free roaming or anything. Granted neither Harley nor Red Hood came with any extra challenge maps. The biggest gripe I have is you can't play as Cat, Nightwing, Robin, Harley, and/or Red Hood in any of the already established combat and predator maps. They clearly have the tech for it already on the disc. ImpAtom posted:It's a stupid cutscene except he has done exactly that stupid thing in the comics so... yes. Deathstroke is a terrible character who does stupid things. (This is also true in Knight where his plot makes even less sense.) Show me a comic book panel where Deathstroke draws his sword and then puts it away to draw his staff.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:56
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poptart_fairy posted:I have a horrible feeling I'm going to spend too much time with this game, guys. This. I hear the complaints about some of the dumb stuff in the story, the bat-tank combat not being fleshed out enough, not enough AR challenges and the predator sections not being as tense as past games because they're outdoors, but I just don't care. I love gliding around, I love punching mooks, I'm one of those crazy people that really enjoys driving the batmobile. To be fair I've felt this way about every one of these games except Origins, which I still haven't played.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:59
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SonicRulez posted:Show me a comic book panel where Deathstroke draws his sword and then puts it away to draw his staff. He doesn't draw his sword and put it away to draw his staff but in the infamous "deathstroke owns the JL" stupid-page from Identity Crisis it has it AND his staff drawn, then put its away to fight with his staff, then draws it again to fight with it and his staff again. In fact he sheath and draws it like three different times in that fight
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Jul 8, 2015 18:59
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ImpAtom posted:He doesn't draw his sword and put it away to draw his staff but in the infamous "deathstroke owns the JL" stupid-page from Identity Crisis it has it AND his staff drawn, then put its away to fight with his staff, then draws it again to fight with it and his staff again. In fact he steaths and draws it like three different times in that fight Hooray, the dumbest Deathstroke thing that has ever happened.
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Jul 8, 2015 19:00
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theflyingorc posted:Hooray, the dumbest Deathstroke thing that has ever happened. I would say it's a close contest but no, it really really is the dumbest Deathstroke thing ever.
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Jul 8, 2015 19:01
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Hulk Krogan posted:To be fair I've felt this way about every one of these games except Origins, which I still haven't played. Origins is my favourite of the original three.  I think I've said this before but to me both Knight and Origins really sell the idea of Being Batman. They're melodramatic, they're packed full of gadgets, crime to stop, mysteries to solve. They're not hugely punishing games by any means, though it definitely gets hairy at times with a lot of the bigger fights, but everything flows well enough for it tickle that "you're a super hero" portion of my brain. I mean for crying out loud when you have your first encounter with Knight and your side mission list starts filling up I know I should be rolling my eyes and whining about the filler, but I could not stop smirking like a loving idiot because it meant I got to do it all and clean up the city. I like super heroes. 
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Jul 8, 2015 19:03
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theflyingorc posted:It's probably pretty simple - console development means that you're making a product for EXACTLY the hardware spec that's sitting in front of you - if you want to know if applying a certain effect will strain your system, you just build the code and run the scenario. You could always give it to a QA house that would test it on various configurations. Why Rocksteady didn't do that to ensure a good PC version is a mystery.
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Jul 8, 2015 19:05
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I also appreciate that at this point, if I'm loving up a fight with a bunch of dudes over and over again, it's my drat fault, not that the game is just impossible (with the exception of the fight I had last night where the frame rate dropped to, well, very small numbers throughout).ayn rand hand job posted:You could always give it to a QA house that would test it on various configurations. "Rocksteady was deeply afraid of plot revelations being leaked ahead of release, said the same source, so traditional PC testing firms that are used to stress test games on different hardware configurations—one of the PC’s biggest hurdles—were avoided." redbackground fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 19:06
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