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Popular Thug Drink posted:You know way too many tiny details and canned rebuttals for anyone to take you seriously when you claim not to care. I think you care a whole lot, perhaps more than anyone else who posts in this thread. It's a common theme among gamergaters I've noticed, to claim not to care while having a practically itemized schedule and bill of characters, being able to immediately recall obscure tweets from months back. I think that this claim not to care in fact is an emotional defensive mechanism, related to knowing that gamergate itself is a shameful and embarrassing harassment campaign that has very little if anything to do with ethics in video games journalism. I've followed it casually since it started. I read /r/KotakuInAction every once and awhile. I haven't been on 8chan yet. I would hardly call the passing familiarity I have with the subject anything more than that. You, on the other hand, post incessantly, yet you seemingly have absolutely no grounding in the topic. It's very bizarre. I am also getting whiffs of concern trolling. Strong ones, too. Go post about something else for awhile and stop getting so invested in something you have so little knowledge of.
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Jul 9, 2015 05:46
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Isn't it equally possible that gamergate itself is manufactured outrage meant to drain the pockets of people who are intensely sensitive to women who have slightly negative things to say about video games? They seem like an enormously motivated and militant group, ripe for manipulation. And they are extremely outraged. Oh, it absolutely is. Zoe's ex-bf and the Honey Badgers have made a mint of Gamergaters.
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Jul 9, 2015 05:47
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Pandemonium posted:Because I don't care enough to post day in and day out about this stuff... I've only just started posting in this thread today, and I likely won't continue because it's clearly full of people who made up their minds about Gamergate after reading a Guardian article or something. Anita isn't a Goddess of Video Game Criticism. People are allowed to disagree with her views on things.
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Jul 9, 2015 05:48
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Pandemonium posted:I've followed it casually since it started. I read /r/KotakuInAction every once and awhile. I haven't been on 8chan yet. I would hardly call the passing familiarity I have with the subject anything more than that. You, on the other hand, post incessantly, yet you seemingly have absolutely no grounding in the topic. It's very bizarre. I am also getting whiffs of concern trolling. Strong ones, too. Go post about something else for awhile and stop getting so invested in something you have so little knowledge of. Perhaps you should instead stop investing so much knowledge in something you have little care of.
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Jul 9, 2015 05:48
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Pandemonium posted:I've followed it casually since it started. I read /r/KotakuInAction every once and awhile. I haven't been on 8chan yet. I would hardly call the passing familiarity I have with the subject anything more than that. You, on the other hand, post incessantly, yet you seemingly have absolutely no grounding in the topic. It's very bizarre. I am also getting whiffs of concern trolling. Strong ones, too. Go post about something else for awhile and stop getting so invested in something you have so little knowledge of. If you only have passing familiarity with this subject that you are extremely knowledgable and passionate about, I'd be amazed to see what you could do in an academic setting. You'd turn the world upside down. In your estimation, what do any of these women have to do with ethics in games journalism?
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Jul 9, 2015 05:48
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Pandemonium posted:Because I don't care enough to post day in and day out about this stuff... I've only just started posting in this thread today, and I likely won't continue because it's clearly full of people who made up their minds about Gamergate after reading a Guardian article or something. See, that's the fun disconnect. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I made up my mind about Gamergate by listening to Gamergate. As a movement, it has the rhetorical impact of a three-year-old resisting bedtime, and as soon as its adherents realize they were very deliberately turned into Milo Yiannopoulos's personal right-wing hand puppet, the better off they're going to be. Pandemonium posted:It's important because Anita has been toted by MSM and big news sources as an important figure in video games, yet she hasn't the first clue about the games she is critiquing, not to mention her draconian, sex-negative views of the female body, her ridiculous anti-violence stance (with echoes of that 90s lawyer), etc. etc. I think it's hilarious that this type of lazy criticism is held up as worthwhile. Basically it's a kind of schadenfreude to laugh at people who actually know what they are talking about rip apart her criticism. Most of why it's held up as worthwhile is because people would rather make Flash games about beating Sarkeesian up than actually debate Sarkeesian in the marketplace of ideas. It's only hilarious because attacking her gave her a wider platform than she could ever have accomplished on her own. You can go after Sarkeesian's arguments fairly easily; she cherry-picks her data much of the time, I don't care for her "thirty negative examples in a row" script style, she has a tendency to elevate indie games while ignoring or minimizing anything people might have actually heard of, and yeah, she doesn't know as much about video games as one might expect from someone whose criticism encompasses the entire medium at once. By the same token, she isn't wrong: game designers have been conditioned by years of experience to treat plots as an afterthought and they tend to fall into toxic patterns, many of which relate back to female characters. At the end of the day, Sarkeesian's point is that there's nothing keeping developers from trying a little harder. Granted, she's a modern-era Tumblr liberal feminist and she's way more focused on the negative side (lady, you got them to put pants on Mileena, how about you focus on that for a while and not bitch about violence in DOOM 4), but overall she's had a neutral to positive impact.
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Jul 9, 2015 05:48
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Slanderer posted:You know what happened with gamergate while simultaneously not knowing if any of it is true? It's pretty clear you are somewhat divorced from reality. Remember how just a little while you made a claim with no basis in factual history? I don't have a Twitter. I brought up Wu, again, to move the discussion away from Zoe and her sex life because there were pages after pages of you people creepily going on and on about it. I agree. Wu is a nobody. She played the outrage game, though, inserting herself into Gamergate, and for that she deserves to be mentioned. And for her subsequent actions, she deserves to be mocked.
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Jul 9, 2015 05:49
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Pandemonium posted:I don't have a Twitter. I brought up Wu, again, to move the discussion away from Zoe and her sex life because there were pages after pages of you people creepily going on and on about it. If only you could have moved the discussion towards ethics in game journalism.
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Jul 9, 2015 05:50
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Violet_Sky posted:Anita isn't a Goddess of Video Game Criticism. People are allowed to disagree with her views on things. Except she has not accepted the $10,000 to charity thing Milo offered to debate her, nor has she ever responded to any form of criticism whatsoever. That's what irks her about me.
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Jul 9, 2015 05:50
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Pandemonium posted:I don't have a Twitter. I brought up Wu, again, to move the discussion away from Zoe and her sex life because there were pages after pages of you people creepily going on and on about it. If Wu isn't important to Gamergate, why did you bring her up to move the conversation away from Quinn? Are you saying Quinn isn't important to Gamergate, when the entire controversy centered around her sex life? This sounds like you're deflecting away from an uncomfortable subject, to me. You could have just stopped reading the thread if it bothered you that much. Or you could have tried to focus on ethics in games journalism. But it seems that you're saying Wu is just as important as Quinn.
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Jul 9, 2015 05:51
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computer parts posted:If only you could have moved the discussion towards ethics in game journalism. We've already established the positive change: disclaimers in gaming websites.
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Jul 9, 2015 05:51
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Pandemonium posted:We've already established the positive change: disclaimers in gaming websites. Can you show us one of these disclaimers? I've never seen one.
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Jul 9, 2015 05:52
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Pandemonium posted:We've already established the positive change: disclaimers in gaming websites. You never posted any examples of those.
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Jul 9, 2015 05:52
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Pandemonium posted:Except she has not accepted the $10,000 to charity thing Milo offered to debate her, nor has she ever responded to any form of criticism whatsoever. That's what irks her about me. Why does it "irk" you that a person who has had hate mobs directed at her by Milo Yiannopoulos won't agree to publicly debate him on his terms? He already has his forum to respond to her (in the form of a right-wing joke of a news website)
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Jul 9, 2015 05:54
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Wanderer posted:See, that's the fun disconnect. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I made up my mind about Gamergate by listening to Gamergate. As a movement, it has the rhetorical impact of a three-year-old resisting bedtime, and as soon as its adherents realize they were very deliberately turned into Milo Yiannopoulos's personal right-wing hand puppet, the better off they're going to be. I think these people are the new "right-wing", or close to it. They don't realize it yet, (Partially due to the stereotypes of "right-wingers" in the U.S.), but these people share similar views to Fox News.
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Jul 9, 2015 05:54
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Violet_Sky posted:I think these people are the new "right-wing", or close to it. They don't realize it yet, (Partially due to the stereotypes of "right-wingers" in the U.S.), but these people share similar views to Fox News. See, I am curious as to the demographic aspect of this. Obviously most of GG are fairly young men, but I wonder if they're the typical Libertarians that seem to parrot similar positions or there's a crossover with white liberals who totally "aren't discriminatory". I'm leaning towards the former because sexism is uncool now that our likely next Democratic nominee/President is a strong woman.
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Jul 9, 2015 05:57
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Uncle Wemus posted:Idk isn't "have that conversation" by that method kinda like how PETA wants to "have that conversation" by calling pets slaves? Not even slightly. It would be genuinely interesting to discuss the appropriate level of critical impact that one should ascribe to character design, plot, and script in a video game, which are generally the areas where "social justice" concerns exist. The Gamergate approach to this question is to say "shut up, it doesn't matter, gameplay is all, make your own games" which strikes me as aggressively dumb. Uncle Wemus posted:Also PR people sound like the mafia. Some of the dumber ones see advertising as paying for a service that includes a review score and don't quite understand how the arrangement is meant to work. Others will, rightly or wrongly, wonder why they're indirectly subsidizing a news organ that is dragging their name through the mud. Either way, it has a bizarre impact on mainstream games coverage, or it used to.
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Jul 9, 2015 06:00
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Wanderer posted:The Gamergate approach to this question is to say "shut up, it doesn't matter, gameplay is all, make your own games" which strikes me as aggressively dumb. Wait, I thought they hated it when women made their own games?
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Jul 9, 2015 06:05
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Wanderer posted:See, that's the fun disconnect. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I made up my mind about Gamergate by listening to Gamergate. As a movement, it has the rhetorical impact of a three-year-old resisting bedtime, and as soon as its adherents realize they were very deliberately turned into Milo Yiannopoulos's personal right-wing hand puppet, the better off they're going to be. Yeah, you have pretty much summed up my feelings at this point. Also i dont know why everyone is obbsessed with Wu. She is a nut for various reasons but she doesnt have much to do with GG, so i dont know why Pandemonium is going on and on about her.
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Jul 9, 2015 06:09
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computer parts posted:See, I am curious as to the demographic aspect of this. Obviously most of GG are fairly young men, but I wonder if they're the typical Libertarians that seem to parrot similar positions or there's a crossover with white liberals who totally "aren't discriminatory". I think it's half and half. Of course, /pol/ and stormfront "ironically" coming into the picture didn't help. Also: Bernie Sanders is a woman?! 
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Jul 9, 2015 06:10
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Pandemonium posted:Except she has not accepted the $10,000 to charity thing Milo offered to debate her, nor has she ever responded to any form of criticism whatsoever. That's what irks her about me. I wouldn't debate Milo either. It would be approximately as constructive as the Ken Ham vs. Bill Nye debate, because Milo is a Breitbart contributor with the ethics of a rabid jackal. Sarkeesian got dissuaded from full back-and-forth participation in the marketplace of ideas real drat quick when most of her early interactions with those who disagreed with her came in the form of rape threats. You see how interested you are in a good old-fashioned back-and-forth exchange with a dude when his idea of an opening salvo is talking about places on you that would be improved by his dick. Violet_Sky posted:I think these people are the new "right-wing", or close to it. They don't realize it yet, (Partially due to the stereotypes of "right-wingers" in the U.S.), but these people share similar views to Fox News. It's sort of like that. One of the things I find interesting about the current media landscape is that, in an age where you can bury yourself up to the neck in information pretty much as will, there's a strong market in selling pre-packaged narratives. You can get immersed in a media bubble very easily without noticing it, and it takes work to break free. Gamers come with a bubble of their own, because there's an interesting divide at work here that I've talked about on SA before: if you are the kind of person who is invested enough in video games to talk about them on an Internet message board, you are more invested in the hobby than a good 80% of the people who pursue it. There is a massive silent majority of video game consumers that drives most of the money in the business and they're very difficult to monetize because they don't pay a lot of attention. Nintendo is basically still in the game specifically because they appeal to that demographic, which is typically referred to as the "casual" market. As such, there are a ton of little issues in the video game industry that seem like major concerns if you're an enthusiast, but are virtually unknown outside of those circles, such as on-disc DLC. What Gamergate has done, through Milo Yiannopoulos and Adam Baldwin's early manipulations, is sell a bunch of easily-manipulated millennial stooges a new media bubble, and it was easy because they're already in one: you are special, your opinions matter, and your precious hobby is under attack by a bunch of fun-hating, sex-hating feminist shrews. It's a power play; it's a couple of right-wing culture warriors inciting and aiming an angry flash mob towards a perceived political target. It falls apart given the slightest scrutiny, of course, but that was never the point.
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Jul 9, 2015 06:14
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Clarste posted:Wait, I thought they hated it when women made their own games? Part of the key of the rhetoric is to mislead the observer into thinking there was ever a win condition.
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Jul 9, 2015 06:18
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Wanderer posted:It's sort of like that. One of the things I find interesting about the current media landscape is that, in an age where you can bury yourself up to the neck in information pretty much as will, there's a strong market in selling pre-packaged narratives. You can get immersed in a media bubble very easily without noticing it, and it takes work to break free. This has always been a thing in media.
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Jul 9, 2015 06:20
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Wanderer posted:I wouldn't debate Milo either. It would be approximately as constructive as the Ken Ham vs. Bill Nye debate, because Milo is a Breitbart contributor with the ethics of a rabid jackal. Milo impresses me in sad and disturbing way, simply because he seems to be the only conservative that i have seen that has been able to actually get younger people on his side. Its probably because he is able to hide some of his shittier opinions. it also probaly helps that he is gay so people dont think he is some super bigot. not defending the rear end in a top hat, i am just surprised he was able to tap into the internet vein when so many other like chuck and chowder get told to gently caress off, even by gg people. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Jul 9, 2015 |
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Jul 9, 2015 06:21
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Wanderer posted:Not even slightly. It would be genuinely interesting to discuss the appropriate level of critical impact that one should ascribe to character design, plot, and script in a video game, which are generally the areas where "social justice" concerns exist. The Gamergate approach to this question is to say "shut up, it doesn't matter, gameplay is all, make your own games" which strikes me as aggressively dumb. See this is whats more interesting to me, what would make GOOD games journalism thats not "tell me what i want to hear"
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Jul 9, 2015 06:22
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Dapper_Swindler posted:Milo impresses me in sad and disturbing way, simply because he seems to be the only conservative that i have seen that has been able to actually get younger people on his side. Its probably because he is able to hide some of his shittier opinions. it also probaly helps that he is gay so people dont think he is some super bigot. not defending the rear end in a top hat, i am just surprised he was able to tap into the internet vein when so many other like chuck and chowder get told to gently caress off, even by gg people. Milo is indeed sad and disturbing. He's manipulative, slimy, and could probably use therapy. He's gay, but he hates gay people..
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Jul 9, 2015 06:28
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Uncle Wemus posted:See this is whats more interesting to me, what would make GOOD games journalism thats not "tell me what i want to hear" The best example overall I'd point to the BBC. For example when ever they report on Israel/Palestine they get bias complaints from both sides of the argument. But they do pull the odd bullshit (RIP Tony Benn :<) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q05loceRjw But again, its a case by case. When Tories are in government they are "tory puppets" when Labour are in government they are "labour puppets" and such but that's just the bloke down the street views. Daily Mail and Murdoch hate the BBC so they must be doing something right.
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Jul 9, 2015 06:28
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Fluo posted:This has always been a thing in media. I don't know if I'd go that far. I'm in my 30s, and when I was a kid, you got everything from your local newspaper, radio, and TV news, with time out for "60 Minutes" and other in-depth shows. When cable showed up, you could add CNN to that, and maybe C-SPAN. There weren't as many sources to choose from, even when people started getting the Internet. Now you can swaddle yourself from dawn to dusk in a personal avalanche of hand-tailored news and views that in no way challenges your preexisting convictions: Fox News on the TV, right-wing blogs on your tablet, hardcover books from Savage or Levin or Limbaugh on your coffee table, and if all else fails, it takes a computer-literate individual maybe thirty seconds to find a halfway-decent echo chamber in which to discuss his or her beliefs. Humans may have naturally surrounded themselves with bubbles before, simply by virtue of who they hung around with, but it's become easier than ever for those who are so inclined to generate and hide within their own portable reality. Movements like Gamergate aren't just a bunch of anonymous assholes; they're selling ideological real estate to people who really want to believe.
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Jul 9, 2015 06:29
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Uncle Wemus posted:See this is whats more interesting to me, what would make GOOD games journalism thats not "tell me what i want to hear" when i think of interesting critiques/journalism/reviews. i think of this guy. https://www.youtube.com/user/bunnyhopshow
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Jul 9, 2015 06:30
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Wanderer posted:I don't know if I'd go that far. I'm in my 30s, and when I was a kid, you got everything from your local newspaper, radio, and TV news, with time out for "60 Minutes" and other in-depth shows. When cable showed up, you could add CNN to that, and maybe C-SPAN. There weren't as many sources to choose from, even when people started getting the Internet. Well this is where cultures clash. America / Britain and such. It's always been known and we've been self aware of it. Even growing up in school we were taught in English class to read different newspapers and position the political bias of each paper on the scale. Also learnt about the target demographic of each newspaper. For example counting the number of words in an article bigger than 6. The Sun would have hardly any, The Times was full of them. The 19th century was the start of the Media Barons which expanded greatly prior to World War 1. (first one is Daily Mail)    
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Jul 9, 2015 06:41
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Uncle Wemus posted:See this is whats more interesting to me, what would make GOOD games journalism thats not "tell me what i want to hear" Basically, you'd be talking about the equivalent of Roger Ebert: a smart, knowledgeable critic with a firm grasp of the medium's history who can state a firm opinion and back that poo poo up in a battle, so even if you don't agree with him you can see where he's coming from. The closest we've come so far is probably Kieron Gillen, because unlike some of the guys who tried to emulate him, he could talk at length about a game without completely disappearing up his own rear end. His piece on exploring Shalebridge Cradle in Thief: Deadly Shadows is a seminal work in the field. The current issue, to my mind, is the post-Yahtzee wave of idiots who mistake cleverly-delivered snark for critical insight. "Zero Punctuation" is treated like it's criticism when it's comedy, and that does about as much damage to criticism as Gamergate does. Dapper_Swindler posted:Milo impresses me in sad and disturbing way, simply because he seems to be the only conservative that i have seen that has been able to actually get younger people on his side. Its probably because he is able to hide some of his shittier opinions. it also probaly helps that he is gay so people dont think he is some super bigot. not defending the rear end in a top hat, i am just surprised he was able to tap into the internet vein when so many other like chuck and chowder get told to gently caress off, even by gg people. Yeah, Milo's subtle genius is that he, unlike our man Chuck, can actually walk amongst the flock of normal humanity as if he were one of them. He's the Clark Kent of the modern right-wing, except when he takes off the glasses he turns into a head case. Fluo posted:Well this is where cultures class. It's not about the existence of media bias or its use in the manipulation of its readers; it's about the ability to self-generate and personalize that manipulation to suit the individual's tastes. One's done to you; the other you do to yourself.
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Jul 9, 2015 06:41
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Wanderer posted:It's not about the existence of media bias or its use in the manipulation of its readers; it's about the ability to self-generate and personalize that manipulation to suit the individual's tastes. One's done to you; the other you do to yourself. I agree but this does covers all sides of politics in general and one reason I got out the LF echochambers years ago.
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Jul 9, 2015 06:46
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He's got a point about not having all the information though Both sides engage in massive amounts of spin and anyone who just listens to one side is bound to be misinformed, which you can clearly see in this thread alone, on both sides of the argument When both sides are as extreme in their views as this, it's reasonable to say the truth most likely lies somewhere in the middle, regardless of how much you hate south park E: it seems we've moved on from pandemonium's discussion
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Jul 9, 2015 07:22
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What's the extreme side opposite GG? Actually link to an example please.
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Jul 9, 2015 07:39
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memy posted:He's got a point about not having all the information though It really doesn't. GamerGate wants to stick to some kind of retarded pretense that they have a point, and leaders, and a message. At the end of the day, they're stupid children who have only been allowed to persist as they have due to Twitter's lax rules and the government's slow response to the concept of online harassment. Every high-minded academic point they have serves entirely to camouflage their true motivations from everyone up to and including themselves, which appear to be the vigilant maintenance of video game culture as a bulwark for the protection, entertainment, and apparently near-constant arousal of men, and they're so awful at making their argument that they got their primary target elected to Time magazine's Hot 100. The error is in thinking that the argument is divided into GamerGate and "Anti-GamerGate," a theoretical left-wing cabal of equally driven left-wing protestors who favor the same tactics. It is not. It is GamerGate vs. a good 99% of the games industry, maybe 75% of the gaming press, and every fan who trends left of Richard Nixon. They hung themselves with their own rope in November or so and the rest of this is just poo poo dripping from their shoes.
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Jul 9, 2015 07:50
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7c Nickel posted:What's the extreme side opposite GG? Actually link to an example please. Didn't Randi Harper do some poo poo, and didn't people call for the Doom 4 guy to be fired for laughing at Jon and Anita's criticism of Doom 4? 
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Jul 9, 2015 07:56
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Wanderer posted:It really doesn't. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNQ-ok-jMOgO39xTjD3BF4XtB5xiskI40 Seriously though you're ignoring a large percentage of this. It boils down to Left Libertarian vs Left Authoritarian. With a little sprinkling of loud Right Wing /pol/ vs loud WASP trust fund Conservatives. Fluo fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Jul 9, 2015 |
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Jul 9, 2015 08:03
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Fluo posted:https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNQ-ok-jMOgO39xTjD3BF4XtB5xiskI40 Which side are the misogynists?
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Jul 9, 2015 08:04
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computer parts posted:Which side are the misogynists? Both sides to be honest. The problem is more like a hexagon.
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Jul 9, 2015 08:05
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So you have two sides who support the same thing as it's not exclusive to have both "ethnics in journalism" and "more diversity in the gaming industry". But to the left and right of the people saying these things get brought tagged to the fringes. So everyone Anti GG thinks racial segregation is good and all forms of violence no matter if its fiction is bad. Where as everyone on GG takes the redpill and are misogynist /pol/ posters. It's a simple easy narrative but sadly, like in the real world outside the internet hiveminds it's not just so. It reminds me of one of the main reasons OWS fell apart because being a grassroots origination there was no "sign here to become a member" so you had a vast range of people behind it, which ended up being it's downfall. It doesn't help when either side defends awful people just because "they're on our side" either. Like serial con artist Peter Coffin who if he wasn't in this shitstorm [he's made quite a profit] he'd be seen as the major misogynist that he is. Who on more than one occasion has pretended to have a girlfriend / wife who happens to need surgery and asked for donations. I can think of a few terrible people on both sides to be honest. Fluo fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Jul 9, 2015 |
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Jul 9, 2015 08:13
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