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If it were up to me, every numerical review of a game would be 10/10. The actual opinions would be in the text.
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Jul 10, 2015 17:12
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Freakazoid_ posted:What Serf said. Also Gamerghazi kind of took up that torch. Well, I didn't know about either of those things until now, something I deeply, deeply regret. How exactly I am supposed to be responsible for something I didn't know existed seems rather unfathomable.
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Jul 10, 2015 17:14
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Freakazoid_ posted:Without any leaders, you automatically have a connection. How does this work, in your head? quote:Their anti-GG stance is your anti-GG stance. No, mine is different. This is kind of obvious. You can tell they're different from the way that they have vast differences between them, and by the way that they and I behave vastly differently. quote:If you want gamergate to be a serious discussion, and the time and effort you've spent in this thread suggests you want it to be, you can't afford to sit back and presume everyone is against these terror threats. I don't assume everyone is. The people making them aren't. Your post makes almost no sense to me. It's the equivalent of going up to a Muslim who runs a carwash in Dearborn and demanding they repudiate ISIL. Or that since I'm an atheist, I repudiate The Amazing Atheist guy.
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Jul 10, 2015 17:16
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Sephyr posted:I find GamerGate so misguided as to be bizarre. Like the MRA 'movement' they seem to overlap with substantially, they actions seem custom-made to undermine the goals they claim to want to achieve. "The rape of males in prisons and high incarceration rate is a tragedy! We better get crackin' on whining about Mad Max: Fury Road being feminist and western women being simultaneously insatiable sluts/stuck-up bitches who won't bang me!" That's pretty much the whole thing in a nutshell. GG as a whole has a mission statement, of sorts, in that it believes that current left-wing media notions of diversity, inclusion, and representation have little to no place in modern video game narrative; put another way, to paraphrase the "Honey Badgers" camp, video games as they currently exist are fine just as they are and require no significant narrative alterations. Further, from the GG perspective, a criticism of a game that revolves around its sexual, gender, or racial politics is automatically an invalid criticism, as these are left-wing irrelevancies. A critical review of a game should revolve entirely around its systems: control, gameplay, balance, innovation, physics, etc. There's some meat on that bone. The left-wing discussion of representation is easily parodied, often misused, and is often argued by a particularly obnoxious brand of online commentator. Further, many of the loudest voices in favor of that representation will proceed to deliberately ignore works in which it appears; there's been an ongoing discussion for years, for example, that fan communities will often minimize or outright ignore female or minority characters in favor of media and fanwork that revolve around white male leads. (The easiest examples these days probably come from the "shipping" community.) It's not hard to come away from a casual perusal of that discussion with the impression that they're complaining simply to complain, or that they've taken the recent concept of the "transformative work" too far. ("Transformative work": I am not getting what I want/need out of pop culture, so I will remake it until I am. Positive side: representation matters and people will find ways to get what they need. I knew a gay woman once who credited her survival of her adolescence to Buffy/Faith fanfiction, as she had grown up in a very small town and would have otherwise had little to no exposure to positive lesbian representation. Negative side: this is basically the academic interpretation of why "rule 34" is a thing.) All that said, the ease with which many left-wing commentators can be ignored does not mitigate their point. It's rare that video game writers and developers are actively sexist or racist themselves, after all; they simply tend to fall into bad habits due to the low priority that's often placed on character design, plot, and dialogue, and due to the demographics of STEM fields, development teams tend to be somewhat monocultural without much of a liberal-arts background. That's how you can get through a two-year development cycle on a project like, say, Far Cry 3 without someone on the team saying, "Uh, guys, we just made an Allan Quartermain serial from the 1920s with tits and swearing. Did we mean to do that?" The easy solution here is simply to help more interested parties break into games development, and for those developers who are already there to be a little more careful, and that's already happening. Basically, the GG perspective is swimming against the tide. There's more than enough room to attack the ideas in play here, or the specific arguments of their most visible proponents, but they're in the unenviable position of arguing against diversity and inclusion, which makes them look quaintly backwards. At that point, you can try to class up your argument ("I think it's perfectly acceptable that every female character in Watch_Dogs is a victim, because that's the specific artistic vision of its creators, and who am I to argue with that--"), retreat into weasel-speak, or attack the proponents themselves on unrelated issues. GG tends to go for that last one.
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Jul 10, 2015 17:19
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That's what it was! The guy I was talking about rolled with those "Honey Badgers". I probably shouldn't trust the way he recounted the story to me, then. Thanks for the well-written summary, Wanderer. I guess when I said the normal, not-creepy-stalker people side was being silly too...I guess I just don't have faith that GGers will change. Like you said, I think they'll push against the tide until they erode. I just don't understand the point of even giving those types the time of day. e: VVV Yeah holy poo poo he never told me that. I wonder why. (hint because it would decimate his criticism) Thanks for the clarification. VVV Electric Lady fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Jul 10, 2015 |
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Jul 10, 2015 17:22
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John Quixote posted:Actually, I'll be silly, too. I'm curious about that college visit. The guy told me some people set up some kind of "safety room" for people who didn't want to hear her speak and they were just playing videos of puppies playing or something on loop. It was a very stereotypical "sensitive tumblr SJW" image. I want to know if this actually happened. If so, this fuels my shame toward the Anti-Gamergate people too for being flippant instead of doing something useful in protest. I want to know the full story. Yeah, it happened. But it wasn't about a MRA feminist speaking, it was a debate about campus sexual assault. The debate led to said safe space and a simultaneous talk about "The role of culture in sexual assault". The whole thing is p bizarre to me. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/opinion/sunday/judith-shulevitz-hiding-from-scary-ideas.html quote:The safe space, Ms. Byron explained, was intended to give people who might find comments “troubling” or “triggering,” a place to recuperate. The room was equipped with cookies, coloring books, bubbles, Play-Doh, calming music, pillows, blankets and a video of frolicking puppies, as well as students and staff members trained to deal with trauma.
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Jul 10, 2015 17:25
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John Quixote posted:I can't believe this is still a discussion. Everyone on every side of this discussion is just being silly. Why are people complaining about journalistic ethics in an industry that has none, that is a glorified advertising industry where game stores and the like own the most widely-read publications? There's a bigger problem that everyone's ignoring. Yeah, that's a valid point. I've said it a couple of times in this thread, but the major problem with games journalism is that it doesn't pay poo poo and isn't well-respected, so anyone with any sense will eventually leverage their connections to get a production or PR job in the games industry. Of all the people in journalism that I met when I started in 2003, I don't know anybody off the top of my head who isn't at least a consultant now. A truly independent, well-funded critical organization would go a long way towards establishing and promoting actual ethics in the system. You need to have people who can afford to be journalists and critics for ten or twenty years, because that's how you build a foundation. As it is, games journalism is your internship for a career in marketing. The ethical problems are a direct corollary of that and aren't necessarily the problem by themselves.
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Jul 10, 2015 17:31
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Obdicut posted:Your post makes almost no sense to me. It's the equivalent of going up to a Muslim who runs a carwash in Dearborn and demanding they repudiate ISIL. Or that since I'm an atheist, I repudiate The Amazing Atheist guy. Muslims and atheists have leaders who can own up to or renounce terror threats. Neither side/faction of gamergate has any. If they had a leader, they could be the ones supporting or condemning the terror threats and I wouldn't have to ask regular people into giving an answer. This is one of the pitfalls of a leaderless movement/issue. Effectronica posted:Well, I didn't know about either of those things until now, something I deeply, deeply regret. How exactly I am supposed to be responsible for something I didn't know existed seems rather unfathomable. You were merely ignorant and I won't hold that against you. But you haven't said what your position is with regards to the terror threats.
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Jul 10, 2015 17:33
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Archer666 posted:Yeah, it happened. But it wasn't about a MRA feminist speaking, it was a debate about campus sexual assault. The debate led to said safe space and a simultaneous talk about "The role of culture in sexual assault". The whole thing is p bizarre to me. Sounds like they went all out on making it comfortable for someone who might have a panic attack during the talk.That kind of thing does happen to people suffering ptsd.
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Jul 10, 2015 17:34
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Freakazoid_ posted:Muslims and atheists have leaders who can own up to or renounce terror threats. I'm not going to tell you, because you believe in the Muslim Pope and the Atheist Pope and it's freaking me out.
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Jul 10, 2015 17:35
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Nevvy Z posted:Sounds like they went all out on making it comfortable for someone who might have a panic attack during the talk.That kind of thing does happen to people suffering ptsd. Yeah, if the guy had told me what the actual talk was about I would have bitten his head off. Sexual assault was a HUGE problem at my alma mater and though I feel the discussion is necessary, I also feel that that comfort should be provided for those who need it. So I guess I was straight up wrong about the normal people being silly, too. I apologize for my error!
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Jul 10, 2015 17:36
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Effectronica posted:I'm not going to tell you, because you believe in the Muslim Pope and the Atheist Pope and it's freaking me out. And if there are Anti-Popes? What then? What then, Freakazoid?
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Jul 10, 2015 17:38
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Freakazoid_ posted:Muslims and atheists have leaders who can own up to or renounce terror threats. No, they don't. Who are the atheist 'leaders'? Atheism just means you don't believe in god. It's not something that needs a leader, or where a leader makes any sense. There are a huge number of different Muslim 'leaders' but no individual Muslim needs to follow any, it's not an intercessional religion. You have a really weird view of the world. quote:If they had a leader, they could be the ones supporting or condemning the terror threats and I wouldn't have to ask regular people into giving an answer. This is one of the pitfalls of a leaderless movement/issue. Here's a hint for engaging with normal people: You don't have to ask them if they support bomb threats. It's a pretty crazy idea to think that you do. Again: I think the GG position is incoherent and hypocritical. I'm not talking about the actions of anyone in the group, I'm referring to the 'ethics in games journalism' stance. I'm also comparing it to their bizarre fixation on 'SJWs'. I don't need a leader to do this.
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Jul 10, 2015 17:40
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Wanderer posted:That's pretty much the whole thing in a nutshell. Hot drat this is the best summary of it all so far in this massive clusterfuck of a thread. FarCry 3's biggest problem was the absolutely unlikable main character. I loathed the fact that I was the whitest whitebread loving fratboy to ever walk the planet. Why couldn't I have been a Maori guy returning home after living in the states for college to find that pirates have taken everything? Someone who was already a part of the culture coming home wouldn't have made me nearly as angry. Secondly you had Citra, who they decided to have rape you while you were stoned out of your mind on poisonous mushroom dust. That entire scene and aftermath was pretty repulsive in it's gratuity, not to mention that it treats rape not even as a joke, but as something sexy and desirable. hosed up. But, if you haven't played it yet, and you like FPS's at all, give that game a shot. Not for Jason, who is again, the whitest frat boy ever. But for Vaas Montenegro, who is a riot to listen to and my favorite villain in the past 5 years. He, along with the gameplay, made it possible for me to get through the game.
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Jul 10, 2015 17:40
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Freakazoid_ posted:Muslims and atheists have leaders who can own up to or renounce terror threats. Richard Dawkins doesn't speak for Athiests any more than Jessie Jackson speaks for black people. The guy's an unlikable turd of a human being.
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Jul 10, 2015 17:43
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John Quixote posted:That's what it was! The guy I was talking about rolled with those "Honey Badgers". I probably shouldn't trust the way he recounted the story to me, then. They Honey Badgers, by the way, have their show put out by Voices for Men, which is a hate group that puts up lists of women they say have made false rape accusations. Someone earlier was all miffed that the Honey Badgers got kicked out of a con, I'm astounded they were even remotely considered to be appropriate at a con. Talmonis posted:Hot drat this is the best summary of it all so far in this massive clusterfuck of a thread. Yeah, it's bad when the hero is the main thing breaking immersion in your game. Every time I heard 'my' voice I winced. Not only that, but you had Maori dudes roaming around muttering to themselves "Keep it together, you can do this". They're a warrior culture but somehow they have to self-reassure constantly, even with no enemies in sight? Plus they get straight-up murdered by cassowaries. It doesn't matter if you beat Vaas, the cassowaries will rule the island.
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Jul 10, 2015 17:46
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Archer666 posted:Yeah, it happened. But it wasn't about a MRA feminist speaking, it was a debate about campus sexual assault. The debate led to said safe space and a simultaneous talk about "The role of culture in sexual assault". The whole thing is p bizarre to me. I never understood how talking to a counselor about trauma would be "hiding."
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Jul 10, 2015 17:47
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Obdicut posted:They Honey Badgers, by the way, have their show put out by Voices for Men, which is a hate group that puts up lists of women they say have made false rape accusations. Someone earlier was all miffed that the Honey Badgers got kicked out of a con, I'm astounded they were even remotely considered to be appropriate at a con. The way they got space at the convention was by lying about who they were on the application. So they probably weren't judged to be appropriate at a con, they just pretended to be people who were.
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Jul 10, 2015 17:48
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thefncrow posted:The way they got space at the convention was by lying about who they were on the application. So they probably weren't judged to be appropriate at a con, they just pretended to be people who were. Yeah, I meant the people saying, after they'd been exposed, that they shouldn't have been kicked out because they weren't really causing a problem.
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Jul 10, 2015 17:50
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Talmonis posted:Hot drat this is the best summary of it all so far in this massive clusterfuck of a thread. agreed. There were some genuenly interesting parts to far cry 3, but all of it is brought down by playing as an annoying white bread fratboy. Its why far cry 4 is so much better, because it doesnt go down that road. plus the author of 4 didnt come of as a pretentious git like 3 writer did. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Jul 10, 2015 |
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Jul 10, 2015 17:51
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On Far Cry 3, I think a game with that main character could have worked, and is something I could have enjoyed. The thing is, they would have had to turn into the spin and have the game explicitly be about what a loving lovely person this frat bro character was. But then you'd have to convince a major publisher to not use Generic Video Game Story #3 and actually do something different, and that wasn't going to happen.
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Jul 10, 2015 17:56
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John Quixote posted:Thanks for the well-written summary, Wanderer. I guess when I said the normal, not-creepy-stalker people side was being silly too...I guess I just don't have faith that GGers will change. Like you said, I think they'll push against the tide until they erode. I just don't understand the point of even giving those types the time of day. It's never so much that anybody gives them the time of day, as they're typically disruptive children, as that they force their way into the discussion. An important corollary, which I've mentioned before in this thread but don't feel can be mentioned enough, is that they would just have been a bunch of vaguely dissatisfied prats on Twitter until the Zoe Quinn debacle, at which point they were deliberately organized into a "movement" by Adam Baldwin and Milo Yiannopoulos. GG is very much a right-wing hand puppet, aimed at an area of human endeavor that had not traditionally been a political battlefield before now. Talmonis posted:FarCry 3's biggest problem was the absolutely unlikable main character. I loathed the fact that I was the whitest whitebread loving fratboy to ever walk the planet. Why couldn't I have been a Maori guy returning home after living in the states for college to find that pirates have taken everything? Someone who was already a part of the culture coming home wouldn't have made me nearly as angry. Secondly you had Citra, who they decided to have rape you while you were stoned out of your mind on poisonous mushroom dust. That entire scene and aftermath was pretty repulsive in it's gratuity, not to mention that it treats rape not even as a joke, but as something sexy and desirable. hosed up. If you get the chance and haven't read it, a Google for Far Cry 3's writer, Jeffrey Yohalem, will get you to a controversial interview he did with Eurogamer a while back. The general idea he had was that Jason Brody is a deliberate send-up of the "white savior" archetype, in that he's a clueless wonder who spends most of the game ripped off his tits on jungle drugs and who's systematically manipulated by everyone on the island. There used to be an argument over that, whether Yohalem actually set out to tell that story and kinda botched the execution or he saw the pushback against it coming and was using the old "it was a parody!' defense. I could go either way.
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Jul 10, 2015 17:56
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SedanChair posted:I never understood how talking to a counselor about trauma would be "hiding." I think "hiding" is referencing to people acting like this: quote:At one point she went to the lecture hall — it was packed — but after a while, she had to return to the safe space. “I was feeling bombarded by a lot of viewpoints that really go against my dearly and closely held beliefs,” Ms. Hall said. Which I do find troublesome. An adult should not need a safe room because they're told things that go against their beliefs. In case of becoming upset or getting a panic attack from the issues disucssed, that I can understand, though.
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Jul 10, 2015 18:02
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Wanderer posted:
I can see that being the attempt. The mechanics of the game, kind of interestingly, undermine that--that the tattoo mystically appears on him and he gets more and more powerful. As well as the endings not really fitting with that except for the 'bad' ending, kinda. Dapper_Swindler posted:Same. Its seems obvious to me that the natives are just filling his head with drugs and "magic warrior fantasy" so he can go be a disposible canon fodder to kill the pirates and the mercs and then he just gets lucky enough to kill them all. then the not-dothroki turn on his rear end or cut his throat when helps create the new generation of warriors. I am hedging with the former but it was still dumb as hell. The problem is that the 'magic warrior' part isn't a fantasy, though. It's reality. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Jul 10, 2015 |
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Jul 10, 2015 18:02
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Wanderer posted:It's never so much that anybody gives them the time of day, as they're typically disruptive children, as that they force their way into the discussion. Same. Its seems obvious to me that the natives are just filling his head with drugs and "magic warrior fantasy" so he can go be a disposible canon fodder to kill the pirates and the mercs and then he just gets lucky enough to kill them all. then the not-dothroki turn on his rear end or cut his throat when helps create the new generation of warriors. I am hedging with the former but it was still dumb as hell.
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Jul 10, 2015 18:03
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Archer666 posted:Which I do find troublesome. An adult should not need a safe room because they're told things that go against their beliefs. In case of becoming upset or getting a panic attack from the issues disucssed, that I can understand, though. The sentence prior to the bit you quoted: quote:Emma Hall, a junior, rape survivor and “sexual assault peer educator” who helped set up the room and worked in it during the debate, estimates that a couple of dozen people used it. I can see how someone who has been raped might run into some emotional issues in a room full of people passionately discussing things that relate to their incredibly traumatic experience. Like, I can believe, although I've never run into it personally, that there are some small number of hypochondriacs who learn about concepts like safe spaces and trigger warnings and then use them to insulate themselves from ideas they don't like. But those concepts were created for some pretty legitimate reasons and it's pretty lovely that so many people -particularly in right wing/GG/MRA circles- are so grossly insensitive to that. Again, it's the GG/MRA version of an old right-wing trope. In this case, the welfare queen. Yeah, some small number of people commit welfare fraud, but by and large the system serves an important and legitimate need, and if you treat anyone who supports it as a fraud, you're kind of an insensitive loving rear end in a top hat. Hulk Krogan fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Jul 10, 2015 |
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Jul 10, 2015 18:08
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SedanChair posted:I never understood how talking to a counselor about trauma would be "hiding." "I haven't been sexually assaulted, but I have stubbed my toe. I figure they place about the same mental and physical toll on the person as each other, so just walk it off lady."
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Jul 10, 2015 18:08
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Archer666 posted:Which I do find troublesome. An adult should not need a safe room because they're told things that go against their beliefs. In case of becoming upset or getting a panic attack from the issues disucssed, that I can understand, though. If they do, though, so what? It doesn't affect me at all. Adults 'shouldn't' need a lot of things. As long as it's not hurting anyone, who cares? Like if a buddy of mine says "I need a drink" i don't tut-tut at him that an adult shouldn't need alcohol to cope with problems and that that's disturbing. And alcohol is a shitload more problematic. Freakazoid_ posted:Ok, cool. So when someone on the pro-GG side threatened to shoot up the convention Anita was supposed to speak at, nobody but the caller has to own up to that either? Sorry, I missed this: And anyone else making death threats against her. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Jul 10, 2015 |
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Jul 10, 2015 18:09
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Why are people talking about this stupid video game poo poo when the same discussion can be had in a much more intelligent, tangible way re: Carry That Weight, the Columbia rape situation, etc.?
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Jul 10, 2015 18:15
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Hulk Krogan posted:The sentence prior to the bit you quoted: But she was talking about her beliefs being challenged that caused her to exit and not having emotional issues with the debate. If she'd mentioned that the subject was just too upsetting because of what she went through, I wouldn't have quoted it. Obdicut posted:If they do, though, so what? It doesn't affect me at all. Adults 'shouldn't' need a lot of things. As long as it's not hurting anyone, who cares? Nothing. It just means I'll consider a person like that less mature than others. Its my personal preference.
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Jul 10, 2015 18:16
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Archer666 posted:
Okay. I'd generally want more information about the person before passing judgement on them, but anyway, it's pretty trivial.
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Jul 10, 2015 18:17
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Obdicut posted:I can see that being the attempt. The mechanics of the game, kind of interestingly, undermine that--that the tattoo mystically appears on him and he gets more and more powerful. As well as the endings not really fitting with that except for the 'bad' ending, kinda. A lot of the game makes more sense if you assume Jason isn't necessarily a reliable narrator. I don't think there's a moment in the story where he isn't drugged, concussed, post-traumatic, or in mild shock.
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Jul 10, 2015 18:18
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Archer666 posted:But she was talking about her beliefs being challenged that caused her to exit and not having emotional issues with the debate. If she'd mentioned that the subject was just too upsetting because of what she went through, I wouldn't have quoted it. Given that she is a rape survivor, and the discussion was about sexual assault, I think it's extremely likely that the ideas she felt were being contradicted had to do with her own experience with sexual assault. In which case it's really not that weird or some kind of mark against her.
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Jul 10, 2015 18:19
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Radbot posted:Why are people talking about this stupid video game poo poo when the same discussion can be had in a much more intelligent, tangible way re: Carry That Weight, the Columbia rape situation, etc.? It's not the same discussion. The "GamerGate" thing has a lot more to do with a specific organization carrying out harassment campaigns on behalf of a particular agenda within the video game industry, and while it isn't more than a stone's throw away from topics like institutionalized sexism and rape culture, it's its own argument.
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Jul 10, 2015 18:21
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Wanderer posted:A lot of the game makes more sense if you assume Jason isn't necessarily a reliable narrator. I don't think there's a moment in the story where he isn't drugged, concussed, post-traumatic, or in mild shock. Sure, but he still gets shot about a zillion times and survives, and is able to beat komodo dragons and sharks and stuff in hand-to-hand combat. Or he doesn't really do anything and just wanders around an island with people looking at him funny. To put it another way: Unreliable narrator is only a useful narrative device if you've got some counterpoint that shows reality, otherwise it's just 'Well, anything could be happening!" Even then it's an iffy device, 'cuz a lot of people are going to come away with the obvious meaning, like Wolf of Wall Street. Radbot posted:Why are people talking about this stupid video game poo poo when the same discussion can be had in a much more intelligent, tangible way re: Carry That Weight, the Columbia rape situation, etc.? They're not the same conversation and they are not exclusive of each other.
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Jul 10, 2015 18:22
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Radbot posted:Why are people talking about this stupid video game poo poo when the same discussion can be had in a much more intelligent, tangible way re: Carry That Weight, the Columbia rape situation, etc.? GG is idiotic, misogynistic and hurts people, so it's worth talking about.
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Jul 10, 2015 18:23
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Radbot posted:Why are people talking about this stupid video game poo poo when the same discussion can be had in a much more intelligent, tangible way re: Carry That Weight, the Columbia rape situation, etc.? This is going to sound really depressing, but 18-30 year olds in America are more willing to engage feminism and womens' rights in the context of videogames, instead of actual real life situations. This isn't meant to be particularly damning to any "side", it's just the truth, it's not even a huge failure on their part so much as it is a failure on our culture punishing worldly views, favoring celebrity gossip as "news" over actual global situations that aren't as "exciting", and just the general sheltered depression state a lot of american youth are in. It's easier for people to get riled up for/against feminism when it impacts one of the few cultural products they still consume.
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Jul 10, 2015 18:31
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A little anecdote: After I started using the GG Autoblocker, I noticed a distinct reduction in the number of overtly racist douchebags in Ferguson comment threads, and a fair few less in anything regarding sexual assault, too. Seems that the statistic that 12% of all reported harassment on Twitter was coming from blocklisted people rings true. While there are a few people that have joined the Gamergate cause because they really do believe that videogames are under siege, a large proportion of its supporters were creepy assholes for all seasons to begin with, and just moved in under this new banner. It's a hell of a movement, really. It's attracted just about every sexist, racist, paranoid reactionary idiot around. Again, when the SPLC flagged Gamergate as a hate movement, one of the first sites to rush to their defense was motherfucking Stormfront. When actual, literal, Sieg Heil'ing Nazis are cheering for you, you're probably on the wrong side. Dominic White fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Jul 10, 2015 |
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Jul 10, 2015 18:34
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Radbot posted:Why are people talking about this stupid video game poo poo when the same discussion can be had in a much more intelligent, tangible way re: Carry That Weight, the Columbia rape situation, etc.? Because the moderators will probate you if you talk about anything else, if you're asking why this isn't talked about in this thread.
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Jul 10, 2015 18:34
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Obdicut posted:No, they don't. Who are the atheist 'leaders'? Atheism just means you don't believe in god. It's not something that needs a leader, or where a leader makes any sense. I don't think you understand the implications of leaderless movements. There are some parallels here with the Occupy movement. I believe there needs to be clear leaders on both sides if the gamergate debate is to have any merit. Especially when it comes to denouncing terror threats. This is not as weird as you're proposing. Talmonis posted:Richard Dawkins doesn't speak for Athiests any more than Jessie Jackson speaks for black people. The guy's an unlikable turd of a human being. I'll concede this point. He's the only atheist leader I knew of, but I'm also not aware of any atheists committing terrorist acts. Obdicut posted:Sorry, I missed this: And anyone else making death threats against her. Just to be clear: Those who supported the bombing against GG in DC, you believe they have to own up to it, too?
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Jul 10, 2015 18:40
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