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StandardVC10 posted:Wait, they did? The guy they all used to post screeds about? Yeah. It was probably a passing thing, but I remember a while back asking about this someone said that if even Thompson agreed with them about Sarkeesian/Quinn/whoeverthefuck they must be onto something True and Big. Other folks in this thread probably have a better idea on the timeline of GG using him/him using them, that was the last time I tried to get a handle on this.
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Jul 10, 2015 23:44
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Wanderer posted:I haven't played it, so if my previous post made it sound like I was making any qualitative judgment about it whatsoever, I apologize. I didn't mean to do that. Oh no, I understand. It is just that I am seeing this game come up a lot in GamerGate circles and it seems to be one thing people are rallying against. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DXYAp9Dbeo The creator of that video has this to say as well. quote:Sunset shows that identity politics does not make good games. As if one game is indicative of anything. As if identity politics aren't made up of a variety of things. But the most damning thing of all to me is that he is blind to the fact that identity politics is in almost all games in that White is not the default in society yet it is in almost all video games.
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Jul 10, 2015 23:50
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Admiral Ray posted:Yeah. It was probably a passing thing, but I remember a while back asking about this someone said that if even Thompson agreed with them about Sarkeesian/Quinn/whoeverthefuck they must be onto something True and Big. Other folks in this thread probably have a better idea on the timeline of GG using him/him using them, that was the last time I tried to get a handle on this. Basically, the Sarkeesian Effect guys (you know, Bathtub Vlogger and White Supremacist On Paper) went looking for people to interview for their project. Among the folks they brought in was Jack Thompson, and they got him to deliver a nice piece about how videogames are actually okay now and that it's really feminism and people like Sarkeesian that are the greatest threat to western civilization today. It really says a lot about the movement that so few questioned the wisdom of having Jack Thompson, legal opponent of the entire games industry and notoriously unethical super-double-disbarred lawyer as a spokesman. Since then, at least one other disbarred lawyer has hitched their wagon to the Gamergate movement, because apparently they'll overlook any sin, so long as they're willing to say that feminism is dangerous. Dominic White fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Jul 10, 2015 |
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Jul 10, 2015 23:55
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revdrkevind posted:Fair point. I meant that in a looser sense, as there have been real-world action taken to have games banned or etc. But how is that action not the very definition of a market solution. Customers choose not to buy a product, company then pulls that product. That's the very thing you're advocating for
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Jul 10, 2015 23:56
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Slanderer posted:This is not an especially good listen for the most part, but has some funny parts: The video brings up an important point: it's easier than ever to release games, so the regulation that nobody is proposing is never happening.
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Jul 10, 2015 23:57
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blackguy32 posted:As if one game is indicative of anything. As if identity politics aren't made up of a variety of things. But the most damning thing of all to me is that he is blind to the fact that identity politics is in almost all games in that White is not the default in society yet it is in almost all video games. It wasn't even about identity politics and even if it was, it didn't fail because of that. It failed because it was pretentious, boring and did not engage you. Its story is talked at you. It wasn't hard to make their concept interesting. They just went with the worst one possible.
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Jul 11, 2015 00:02
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Dapper Dan posted:It wasn't even about identity politics and even if it was, it didn't fail because of that. It failed because it was pretentious, boring and did not engage you. Its story is talked at you. It wasn't hard to make their concept interesting. They just went with the worst one possible. Not having played the game but heard a bunch of people talk about it, it sounds like it would've been better if they modeled it after something like papers please. I really like the concept though.
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Jul 11, 2015 00:05
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"Identity politics" tends to translate often to "Things I don't like".
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Jul 11, 2015 00:05
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blackguy32 posted:Oh no, I understand. It is just that I am seeing this game come up a lot in GamerGate circles and it seems to be one thing people are rallying against. I dont think sunset worked because it was extremely pretentious and too hamfisted and on the nose with its politics. The character just the author mouth and talks about how rich opulence is bad and how some books are "troubling" or problematic and thats it(art of war). hell i even agree with some of their politics. but its so pretentious that it turns me off. I liked gone home because your explored and put together a mystery. the guy doing video is a wanker and a dipshit. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Jul 11, 2015 |
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Jul 11, 2015 00:06
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Archer666 posted:I understand completely, however with the sheer metric fuckload of trolling and dumb comments being made, it's impossible to separate any real threats from the garbage. There isn't a feasible way to monitor all that, so it'll get ignored. Isn't one of the first targets of this a person who had their information dumped by an ex
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Jul 11, 2015 00:14
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Anatharon posted:Isn't one of the first targets of this a person who had their information dumped by an ex And when he spoke out against it, Phil Fish found his company hacked and their confidential business documents (including stuff like social security numbers and bank details) released. There were also constant attempts to get into Quinn's private emails, although I'm not sure if those succeeded. A fair few peoples sites and twitter accounts were hijacked, etc etc. If you want to be 100% sure of Gamergate leaving you alone, you basically have to live on the moon. Dominic White fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Jul 11, 2015 |
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Jul 11, 2015 00:22
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Please dissect this gg thread http://8ch.net/gamergatehq/res/223681.html
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Jul 11, 2015 00:23
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Uncle Wemus posted:Please dissect this gg thread People projecting hard. Also, don't go there.
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Jul 11, 2015 00:28
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7FuEaiC-ms I thought this was alright. it shows that sarkisians arguments can apply to both genders. at least with the damsel fridge" trope Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Jul 11, 2015 |
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Jul 11, 2015 00:28
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Dapper_Swindler posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7FuEaiC-ms Only if you completely ignore context and focus only on content
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Jul 11, 2015 00:29
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Dapper_Swindler posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7FuEaiC-ms I see them using her arguments about basically sacrificing women in order to develop male characters, and replaced the footage with sacrificing men in order to develop other male characters was that the point? because I think hers went way over the video creator's head
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Jul 11, 2015 00:32
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many johnnys posted:I see them using her arguments about basically sacrificing women in order to develop male characters, and replaced the footage with sacrificing men in order to develop other male characters The point with this kind of stuff "´shut up about things being bad":
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Jul 11, 2015 00:33
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I cannot tell sometimes if arguments like this are deliberately disingenuous or if they honestly miss the point of what Sarkeesian is saying.
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Jul 11, 2015 00:35
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Uncle Wemus posted:Please dissect this gg thread Why is that a GG issue? I don't even get what the complaint is--devs sharing anonymous refund notes, apparently GGers find this some sort of vicious attack? What? As is so often with GG stories, I don't get what they're complaining about and then see a bunch of 'human being' 'radfem' 'sjw' whining going on.
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Jul 11, 2015 00:37
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They are, not at all ironically or unintentionally, looking to be offended.
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Jul 11, 2015 00:47
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many johnnys posted:I see them using her arguments about basically sacrificing women in order to develop male characters, and replaced the footage with sacrificing men in order to develop other male characters Sarkeesian's point with her "Damsels in Distress" video was that it relegates women to the status of possessions, to be fought over and argued about but never to have an equivalent role in the narrative. Kelly Sue DeConnick called the same thing the "Sexy Lamp" test: if a female character in your plot could be adequately replaced with a sexy lamp without affecting the flow of events, there's a chance you've hosed up. It had been happening a lot at the point the video came out, with a flurry of indie and download games that revisited the "rescue the princess" plot due to it also being the plot of the '80s games they were emulating. Some of them played with it a bit (Super Meat Boy has the "princess" kidnapped on every stage; in Double Dragon Neon, the kidnapped girlfriend is also the final boss), but they were still pretty much playing it straight for all that. The issue is largely one of not allowing a female character to have her own narrative or arc, which is always a problem, particularly from a feminist perspective. It's theoretically the same issue if you were to have a male character to whom the same things happen (kidnapped to use as bait, abducted by the hero's rival, etc.), but that happens rarely enough that I can't think of an example off the top of my head.
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Jul 11, 2015 00:48
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They seem to think its an attempt to shame refunds. That it's anti-consumer to do what they think is mocking complaints. Some complaints seem like those amazon / newegg reviews where people received something on the day they were diagnosed with cancer so it gets 1 star. I'm not trying to argue for them or say its right, that just seems to be what they think.
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Jul 11, 2015 00:50
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I cannot tell sometimes if arguments like this are deliberately disingenuous or if they honestly miss the point of what Sarkeesian is saying. Even if you assume it's done with the best of possible intentions, it's still indicative of a desire to prove the problem she's talking about isn't actually happening, which is rarely coming from a place of good faith.
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Jul 11, 2015 00:50
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Uncle Wemus posted:They seem to think its an attempt to shame refunds. That it's anti-consumer to do what they think is mocking complaints. It seems like another example of GGers freaking the gently caress out and thinking they're under attack.
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Jul 11, 2015 00:52
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It does look like a couple of posts notice that since its anonymous there's not much of a problem.
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Jul 11, 2015 00:53
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Obdicut posted:It seems like another example of GGers freaking the gently caress out and thinking they're under attack. I can see why they might think it's kind of a lovely thing to do, but in the grand scheme of things it's loving pointless to start throwing a fit over. I think GGers often feel like the people who get offended over their hobby are nitpicking stupid poo poo so they have to do it, too.
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Jul 11, 2015 00:56
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Wanderer posted:Sarkeesian's point with her "Damsels in Distress" video was that it relegates women to the status of possessions, to be fought over and argued about but never to have an equivalent role in the narrative. Kelly Sue DeConnick called the same thing the "Sexy Lamp" test: if a female character in your plot could be adequately replaced with a sexy lamp without affecting the flow of events, there's a chance you've hosed up. Yeah, and those are cliches. It is hard to judge games in the 1980s and simple games where they need some objective. It is cheap and sparks an emotional response from the player. If men being in distress sparked a simple emotional response like that, it would be used more often in the cliched context. But the trope itself is fine. I do like the sexy lamp analogy and it does help to differentiate the trope from the cliche.
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Jul 11, 2015 00:59
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Dapper Dan posted:Yeah, and those are cliches. It is hard to judge games in the 1980s and simple games where they need some objective. It is cheap and sparks an emotional response from the player. If men being in distress sparked a simple emotional response like that, it would be used more often in the cliched context. But the trope itself is fine. I do like the sexy lamp analogy and it does help to differentiate the trope from the cliche. The issue is that the trope did not originate with 80s video games and plays off very archaic ideas of the roles of men and women. The trope cannot be the trope itself because it's inseparable from the larger context that popularized it.
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Jul 11, 2015 01:03
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Mel Mudkiper posted:The issue is that the trope did not originate with 80s video games and plays off very archaic ideas of the roles of men and women. The trope cannot be the trope itself because it's inseparable from the larger context that popularized it. So what you are saying is that a female character can never be rescued by a male character, no matter her characterization, the plot, and arc? Because if you throw away the trope that is what you are saying.
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Jul 11, 2015 01:07
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Dapper Dan posted:Yeah, and those are cliches. It is hard to judge games in the 1980s and simple games where they need some objective. It is cheap and sparks an emotional response from the player. If men being in distress sparked a simple emotional response like that, it would be used more often in the cliched context. But the trope itself is fine. I do like the sexy lamp analogy and it does help to differentiate the trope from the cliche. Yeah, in the '80s the princess thing was already a cliche. She might as well have been a bag of money or a sandwich or something. The part I agree with in Sarkeesian's argument is that there's no reason to recycle it endlessly simply because it's tradition, and the idea of women as a possession to be fought over and reclaimed is kinda sketchy and pernicious, especially in games where the female character in question is also the only female character in the game. The part I disagree with is when she uses it as an excuse to take the viewer on a guided tour through her games pitch where the princess saves herself. I'd also argue that some of her examples are kinda stupid, like games where the female character in question is brainwashed or blackmailed or something (i.e. Resident Evil 5) and subsequently tries to kill you. That ain't a damsel in distress; that's a damsel putting me in distress.
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Jul 11, 2015 01:09
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Dapper Dan posted:So what you are saying is that a female character can never be rescued by a male character, no matter her characterization, the plot, and arc? Because if you throw away the trope that is what you are saying. No, but it would be nice if the woman got some kind of character arc. When a character is purely a damsel in distress (background until kidnapped, motivation until rescued), that's pretty bad writing all round, and in the VAST majority of cases of such lazy writing, the character/furniture is a woman.
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Jul 11, 2015 01:09
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Dapper Dan posted:So what you are saying is that a female character can never be rescued by a male character, no matter her characterization, the plot, and arc? Because if you throw away the trope that is what you are saying. Ideally it would be equally likely for a man rescuing a woman and a woman rescuing a man (and man-man, woman-woman, etc).
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Jul 11, 2015 01:12
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Dapper Dan posted:So what you are saying is that a female character can never be rescued by a male character, no matter her characterization, the plot, and arc? Because if you throw away the trope that is what you are saying. I am not saying the trope should be thrown out, and Sarkeesian is not either. But you cannot escape the context and implicit message it communicates. The idea is not to annihilate the trope, it's to raise awareness of the issues behind it and challenge creators to think more critically about their decision to use it.
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Jul 11, 2015 01:12
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Wanderer posted:
That is indeed the weaker part of her stuff, but it still makes sense. It's just another way of having no agency: you are either a movable goalpost for the hero to chase, or that and also an extension of the villain's will in order to harm the hero and add to the drama of his situation. You know what I'd really like to see? Just once? A game in which the protagonist is moved entirely be ideology. No abducted love interest, no burned down home village, no parents slain by mustache-twirling villain, no being enslaved/kidnapped and out for revenge. Just a person with a strong set of ideas and out to challenge the world with them.
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Jul 11, 2015 01:14
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Dominic White posted:No, but it would be nice if the woman got some kind of character arc. When a character is purely a damsel in distress (background until kidnapped, motivation until rescued), that's pretty bad writing all round, and in the VAST majority of cases of such lazy writing, the character/furniture is a woman. She said the same thing about Jade in her Beyond Good and Evil video, and she was the main character, but apparently it still isn't okay for a man to rescue a woman.
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Jul 11, 2015 01:14
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Dapper Dan posted:So what you are saying is that a female character can never be rescued by a male character, no matter her characterization, the plot, and arc? Because if you throw away the trope that is what you are saying. That's close to what Sarkeesian ends up saying on Twitter from time to time, yeah. That's one of her big problems; she has a bad habit of becoming the straw-man extreme edge of her own argument, like when she went after Dying Light earlier this year. It's probably a useful reminder, if nothing else. If you happen to be writing the script for a game and you need an excuse for a dude to go through hell, there are probably smarter ways to do it than "his girlfriend's on the other side." It's been done.
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Jul 11, 2015 01:15
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Germstore posted:She said the same thing about Jade in her Beyond Good and Evil video, and she was the main character, but apparently it still isn't okay for a man to rescue a woman. Yep, that's stretching a bit. I disagree with Sarkeesian on... most things, come to think of it. Broadly speaking, I think she oversimplifies things and takes a very reductionist approach. Which makes attempts above to reduce her points even further to the point of absurdity in order to try and argue against them downright silly.
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Jul 11, 2015 01:17
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Tropes are not inherently bad. They're just a way to classify and label recurring elements within storytelling; saying certain tropes are lazily overused doesn't mean those tropes should never be.
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Jul 11, 2015 01:18
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Sephyr posted:You know what I'd really like to see? Just once? A game in which the protagonist is moved entirely be ideology. No abducted love interest, no burned down home village, no parents slain by mustache-twirling villain, no being enslaved/kidnapped and out for revenge. Just a person with a strong set of ideas and out to challenge the world with them. Grandia II. Maybe Skies of Arcadia. More recently, Sunset Overdrive kind of fills the bill; your character's entire motivation in that is "I'm a superhero now  "Come to think of it, the 2013 remake of Shadow Warrior does the same thing. Lo Wang inadvertently releases the forces of hell on Earth and one of your first stops is your cool underground superhero base, because the world is in trouble and Wang is a huge, huge loving nerd. He was hoping for zombies, he got demons, but he's still going to grab his weapons cache and kick the gently caress out of everything.
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Jul 11, 2015 01:18
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Wanderer posted:That's close to what Sarkeesian ends up saying on Twitter from time to time, yeah. That's one of her big problems; she has a bad habit of becoming the straw-man extreme edge of her own argument, like when she went after Dying Light earlier this year. What was wrong with her critique if Dying Light? An independent and resourceful female character losing her agency and being used as a tool in the feud between two men is exactly her complaint.
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Jul 11, 2015 01:19
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