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The UK murder rate rose after the bans that followed the Hungerford and Dunblane massacres (it wasn't until 2010 that murders dropped below pre-Hungerford levels), and gun crime in general rose year-on-year for almost two decades:  The UK experience serves to show that there's zero correlation between restricting firearms and crimestopping. The UK has relatively low guncrime because it's always been low, even long before the introduction of restrictions. kapparomeo fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Jul 11, 2015 |
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Jul 11, 2015 23:18
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Perhaps we might remove the means by which people can kill each other easily, to reduce the preponderance of spontaneous killings and suicides, and also address the causes of premeditated crime? The two are not opposed.
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Jul 11, 2015 23:18
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OwlFancier posted:Perhaps we might remove the means by which people can kill each other easily, to reduce the preponderance of spontaneous killings and suicides, and also address the causes of premeditated crime? So you want to outlaw all tools and machines? That is pretty hardcore, but I respect the commitment you're displaying. OwlFancier posted:The two are not opposed. I have a fun proposal, lets put up anti-bullying focus crystals and switch school cafeterias to an all homeopathic menu. Sure it will drain money from the budget for teachers, counselors, and other programs, but its not opposed.
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Jul 11, 2015 23:24
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LeJackal posted:I have a fun proposal, lets put up anti-bullying focus crystals and switch school cafeterias to an all homeopathic menu. Sure it will drain money from the budget for teachers, counselors, and other programs, but its not opposed.
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Jul 11, 2015 23:30
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OwlFancier posted:Perhaps we might remove the means by which people can kill each other easily, to reduce the preponderance of spontaneous killings and suicides, and also address the causes of premeditated crime? Why are suicides bad for society? If someone wants out, well..
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Jul 11, 2015 23:32
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Nessus posted:Why not make guns mandatory? I don't mean a firearms safety class, I mean mandatory open carry for all adult citizens. Conscientious objectors from the peace churches can opt out if they hate America so bad. Can I pick what I carry? Because walking around with a shotgun like Omar Little would be sweet.
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Jul 11, 2015 23:43
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Mo_Steel posted:Can I pick what I carry? Because walking around with a shotgun like Omar Little would be sweet. I would carry a brace of Thompson Center Contenders in .45-70 in case I was mugged by a buffalo or a light armored vehicle.
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Jul 11, 2015 23:47
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Best of both worlds, 6" Serbu Super Shorty 12GA loaded with 3" magnum slugs.
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Jul 11, 2015 23:49
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OwlFancier posted:
Just out of curiosity, how do you propose to secure a border thousands of miles long with batons? Because if you disarm our citizens, and then our police (which is your ideal situation), I'm not entirely sure how to do that. 24/7 human chain?
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Jul 12, 2015 00:15
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here is an interesting blog giving examples of homemade firearms. Consider many were developed over a century ago and machinery has only gotten easier to use since then. We now have CAD, CNC, laser cutters and eventually 3D printers. Oh, and the Internet. Guns just aren't that hard to make if you have any skill with metalworking. There are a lot of people, both hobbyists and professionals, who have the skills and equipment to supply criminals with firearms if needed. Of course this is not necessary when the country is already saturated with firearms. tumblr.txt fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Jul 12, 2015 |
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Jul 12, 2015 00:53
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Shooting Blanks posted:Just out of curiosity, how do you propose to secure a border thousands of miles long with batons? Because if you disarm our citizens, and then our police (which is your ideal situation), I'm not entirely sure how to do that. 24/7 human chain? why is killing people necessary in today's america? there are many obvious ways to secure a border or make the securing of it much more manageable, none of which involve primarily guns
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Jul 12, 2015 00:53
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Palace of Hate posted:why is killing people necessary in today's america? there are many obvious ways to secure a border or make the securing of it much more manageable, none of which involve primarily guns Hey, when you can conclusively prove that there is no violent crime in America, I will happily give up my right to self defense. I'd still like to shoot clays because it's fun though.
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Jul 12, 2015 00:56
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Palace of Hate posted:why is killing people necessary in today's america? there are many obvious ways to secure a border or make the securing of it much more manageable, none of which involve primarily guns
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Jul 12, 2015 00:57
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tumblr.txt posted:I am curious to hear this 100% non-lethal solution, and how much it will cost. After reading the FBI's website about crime on the border it seems to be primarily a result of drug cartel activity. so if you have a tenuous definition of ethics and only care about cost I think one of the most effective ways to combat united states southern border crime would be to federally manufacture and supply drugs to the primary markets that cartels operate in at competitive prices. Obviously there are more expensive options, like correcting socioeconomic factors that lead to problematic drug use in the first place, or single payer healthcare with comprehensive substance abuse care. If you think we need to point guns at people who just want to immigrate here, I don't agree with that, it would be better and cheaper if you just give them amnesty. Or is there a large problem of murderous bands of barbarians with automatic rifles?
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Jul 12, 2015 01:11
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Palace of Hate posted:After reading the FBI's website about crime on the border it seems to be primarily a result of drug cartel activity. so if you have a tenuous definition of ethics and only care about cost I think one of the most effective ways to combat united states southern border crime would be to federally manufacture and supply drugs to the primary markets that cartels operate in at competitive prices. Obviously there are more expensive options, like correcting socioeconomic factors that lead to problematic drug use in the first place, or single payer healthcare with comprehensive substance abuse care. If you think we need to point guns at people who just want to immigrate here, I don't agree with that, it would be better and cheaper if you just give them amnesty. Or is there a large problem of murderous bands of barbarians with automatic rifles? So we're expanding this discussion of gun control in America to include criminal justice, healthcare, the wealth gap, immigration, and the war on drugs. That's simple enough. Edit: While we're making wishes and hoping they come true, can I win the lottery? Thanks.
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Jul 12, 2015 01:20
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Shooting Blanks posted:So we're expanding this discussion of gun control in America to include criminal justice, healthcare, the wealth gap, immigration, and the war on drugs. That's simple enough. Hey buddy you didn't ask for realistic or reasonable solutions you asked for a 100% non-lethal solution and then indicated you were worried about cost. Something realistic and reasonable probably involves drones and people in trucks chasing people you see with the drones, I'm not claiming to be an expert on border security or law enforcement, I just know there are many ways to "avoid the need" to point a firearm at something and destroy it.
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Jul 12, 2015 01:23
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Palace of Hate posted:Hey buddy you didn't ask for realistic or reasonable solutions you asked for a 100% non-lethal solution and then indicated you were worried about cost. Something realistic and reasonable probably involves drones and people in trucks chasing people you see with the drones, I'm not claiming to be an expert on border security or law enforcement, I just know there are many ways to "avoid the need" to point a firearm at something and destroy it. ...No I didn't. But thanks for playing.
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Jul 12, 2015 02:26
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Palace of Hate posted:Hey buddy you didn't ask for realistic or reasonable solutions you asked for a 100% non-lethal solution and then indicated you were worried about cost. Something realistic and reasonable probably involves drones and people in trucks chasing people you see with the drones, I'm not claiming to be an expert on border security or law enforcement, I just know there are many ways to "avoid the need" to point a firearm at something and destroy it. They have a documentary about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VobWtgyoAG4
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Jul 12, 2015 02:41
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guys you can probably stop posting at the wierd misanthrope incoherently spamming crazy gibberish like 'assault victims are morally obligated to honorably duel their attackers' and 'the United States is an island if you ignore all the land borders' like his ideas have merit or are reflective of any political philosophy with currency among anyone anywhere. if you want low-hanging debate points that bad I have some poorly machine translated Chinese viagra spam I can shareNessus posted:Why not make guns mandatory? I don't mean a firearms safety class, I mean mandatory open carry for all adult citizens. Conscientious objectors from the peace churches can opt out if they hate America so bad. folks are never ever ever gonna stop bitching about the already existing legal mandate to purchase some of the president's campaign donors' products, do you really want double that A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Jul 12, 2015 |
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Jul 12, 2015 05:28
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kapparomeo posted:The UK murder rate rose after the bans that followed the Hungerford and Dunblane massacres (it wasn't until 2010 that murders dropped below pre-Hungerford levels), and gun crime in general rose year-on-year for almost two decades: According to this one data point with about a hundred confounding factors, going from merely extremely restrictive firearms laws to bans doesn't do much. Therefore dozens of data points as well as basic common sense are wrong, and having millions of far far less regulated tools whose only purpose is making violence easier and deadlier has a zero impact on violence in the US. Again I ask the gun fanboys to consider the possibility that they are merely believing whatever they want to believe.
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Jul 12, 2015 08:11
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I'm sincerely sorry you are afraid of inanimate objects, but that still doesn't make 'common sense' a valid argument for infringing upon the rights of the vast majority of gun owners who do not use their property for murder.
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Jul 12, 2015 08:59
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Tezzor posted:dozens of data points The best predictors of murder rates are wealth and inequality. Gun control talk is a distraction from the real problem: that America is a highly unequal society, where millions, especially blacks, live in poverty. Tezzor posted:basic common sense Liquid Communism posted:I'm sincerely sorry you are afraid of inanimate objects, but that still doesn't make 'common sense' a valid argument for infringing upon the rights of the vast majority of gun owners who do not use their property for murder. - free speech - freedom of religion - democratically elected government - equality of woman and man - guns - ... Spot the odd man out. If you can't, you're probably American!
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Jul 12, 2015 10:48
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kapparomeo posted:The UK murder rate rose after the bans that followed the Hungerford and Dunblane massacres (it wasn't until 2010 that murders dropped below pre-Hungerford levels), and gun crime in general rose year-on-year for almost two decades: After those bans were put in place not one similar massacre happened again. "Zero correleation" between those facts as well im sure.
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Jul 12, 2015 11:22
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Benjamin Arthur posted:After those bans were put in place not one similar massacre happened again. "Zero correleation" between those facts as well im sure.
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Jul 12, 2015 11:47
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SedanChair posted:Our spirits are just too rebellious; embrace it. This is an amusing euphemism for "American gun nuts need their guns to keep away all the scary brown people." And since we're talking about the ol' "the problem is those violent you-know-whats driving up the crime statistics, not are guns  " argument.... LeJackal posted:It comes down to the socioeconomics. If you take a step back and honestly want to prevent any kind of violence and murder, then the method of killing is essentially immaterial because the method comes after the motive. Lets consider a circumstances where a murder might occur, shall we? No, the method is not essentially immaterial. Any criminologist will tell you that most crime, including violent crime, is basically contingent. You make it harder to kill people and you reduce the number of homicides. quote:Drug Dealer Dan is in dispute with Rival Randy for control of territory for drug distribution. Their conflict is driven by an economic need (for money) and social drives (to maintain an appearance of control and dominance important in their illicit-market culture). The illegal nature of their business eliminates contracts or courts or the police from consideration as solutions to their conflict. Violence is the solution they go to, because of these factors, and if the socioeconomic drives are powerful enough to overcome the fear of possible negative consequences, they will continue until one of them is dead, regardless of the means. Yeah, it's those dangerous urban types, we get it. It's a good thing that none of the hundred other nations with per capita homicide rates lower than the United States have crime or poverty or inequality, which is apparently the only way to account for the dramatic difference in the murder rate. It's a good thing no other advanced democracies like those of Western Europe have urban blight or gang crime or an illicit drug trade, because apparently if they did their much stronger gun control would have absolutely no effect on the per capita homicide rate. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 12:22 on Jul 12, 2015 |
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Jul 12, 2015 12:18
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It's funny how you guys all complain about the kind of guy who buys several guns for their house but those guys are pretty low in terms of their crime rate. I mean you can make fun of them all you want but jim bob who buys AR-15s for the coming race war is a low risk proposition. Like everything else in the US, these things are not a real problem in the suburbs. Of course, Tezzors and other Europeans will latch onto every news story, but statistically these things are a pinprick.
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Jul 12, 2015 12:33
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Can we stop saying that Switzerland has permissive gun laws please? They really don't.
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Jul 12, 2015 12:43
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Perhaps not in comparison to parts of the USA but they're more liberal than a lot of Europe (click to expand): Switzerland has considerably more permissive gun laws than the UK and yet has lower murder and crime rates. Suicide is higher by some metrics (one list here puts Switzerland lower, one higher), but that's inflated because Switzerland has legal assisted suicide.
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Jul 12, 2015 13:38
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Panzeh posted:It's funny how you guys all complain about the kind of guy who buys several guns for their house but those guys are pretty low in terms of their crime rate. I mean you can make fun of them all you want but jim bob who buys AR-15s for the coming race war is a low risk proposition. Like everything else in the US, these things are not a real problem in the suburbs. A regulatory system where every can buy a new AR-15 with about as much difficulty as it would take to buy a new TV is one where there is going to be a high level of gun violence. That white suburbanites do not bear the brunt of the problem of gun violence that they enable politically is not really a defense.kapparomeo posted:Switzerland has considerably more permissive gun laws than the UK and yet has lower murder and crime rates. Suicide is higher by some metrics (one list here puts Switzerland lower, one higher), but that's inflated because Switzerland has legal assisted suicide. Patterns of Swiss gun ownership are nothing like patterns of American gun ownership, you probably already realize this. An unloaded rifle in the back of the closet left over from your militia training is a lot loving different than the semi auto pistol in your glovebox. The irony here is that Switzerland's gun laws look a lot like what the framers of the US Constitution had in mind with the 2nd Amendment. Not a bunch of anti-social nuts stockpiling their own personal arsenals, but an official militia consisting of citizens who undergo military training and are subject to military discipline because they constitute the armed forces of the country.
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Jul 12, 2015 14:12
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The Insect Court posted:A regulatory system where every Yeah folks are really overemphasizing how the ARs shoot people directly in roughly the numbers that sharks eat people when what we all ougta be talking about here is the psionic Murder Waves they emit that give the poor underdeveloped ethnics the killthoughts After all, the logic goes, if some fat systems engineer can own a Rambo gun and have a detailed plan for the apocalypse, what reason have I to not straw-buy an old cop revolver and execute the guy selling heroin where I want to sell heroin? A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Jul 12, 2015 |
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Jul 12, 2015 14:24
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The Insect Court posted:A regulatory system where every It's not the AR-15s causing the problems tho.
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Jul 12, 2015 14:38
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tumblr.txt posted:It's not the AR-15s causing the problems tho. It's the old "weed can't be legal for adults, it will increase how much CRACK the children smoke!"
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Jul 12, 2015 14:52
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The Insect Court posted:A regulatory system where every quote:Patterns of Swiss gun ownership are nothing like patterns of American gun ownership, you probably already realize this. An unloaded rifle in the back of the closet left over from your militia training is a lot loving different than the semi auto pistol in your glovebox. quote:The irony here is that Switzerland's gun laws look a lot like what the framers of the US Constitution had in mind with the 2nd Amendment. Not a bunch of anti-social nuts stockpiling their own personal arsenals, but an official militia consisting of citizens who undergo military training and are subject to military discipline because they constitute the armed forces of the country. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Jul 12, 2015 |
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Jul 12, 2015 14:56
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Slipknot Hoagie posted:It's the old "weed can't be legal for adults, it will increase how much CRACK the children smoke!" To surface appearances America might have a drug problem, or an entrenched poverty problem, but really they just can't handle all that FREEDOM Dead Reckoning posted:I see you haven't read Heller. B-b-b-but the qualified experts on Constitutional philosophy disagree with me, a mad dude on the Internet who read a blog once, they must be hacks!
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Jul 12, 2015 14:59
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Dead Reckoning posted:That's not borne out by history though. The enactment and subsequent sunset of the AWB had no measurable effect on crime rates. And there was really no way it would have since most aspects of it only affected long-arms instead of handguns.
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Jul 12, 2015 15:28
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The Insect Court posted:Yeah, it's those dangerous urban types, we get it. It's a good thing that none of the hundred other nations with per capita homicide rates lower than the United States have crime or poverty or inequality, which is apparently the only way to account for the dramatic difference in the murder rate. It's a good thing no other advanced democracies like those of Western Europe have urban blight or gang crime or an illicit drug trade, because apparently if they did their much stronger gun control would have absolutely no effect on the per capita homicide rate.  GINI, GDP, Murder Rate and murder rate predicted by a simple linear model (GINI + GDP) for all nations I have data for. I have used ranks because it's an easy way to roughly account for data shape, especially heterogenity (so the input was, does the country have the globally best, 2nd best, 3rd best ... murder rate, GINI, etc). Higher is better, so higher Minus_Gini means less equality. Then, all columns were mean zero'd, so negative and positive values are how far a country is from the average. Note 1. how well the Germanic countries are aligned here; what this basically means is that they have the lowest murder and inequality rates and high GDP. 2. the reverse appears for some african countries, e.g. Lesotho. 3. The US has a disproportionally high murder rate for its GDP, but a low murder rate for its inequality. 4. However, compare Singapore and Switzerland. This extremely simple model accounts for ~50, 60% of the variance in the data. I'd love to have an estimate of private gun ownership prevalence in here. Edit: model fit  model code:Cingulate fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Jul 12, 2015 |
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Jul 12, 2015 15:29
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Cingulate posted:I have used ranks because it's an easy way to roughly account for data shape, especially heterogenity (so the input was, does the country have the globally best, 2nd best, 3rd best ... murder rate, GINI, etc). Higher is better, so higher Minus_Gini means less equality. Then, all columns were mean zero'd, so negative and positive values are how far a country is from the average. Except that ranking is a terrible way to measure, since homicide rate and other HDI indicators aren't anything close to linerally distributed by ranking, and the top ranks are likely to be dominated by city-states (Monaco, Liechtenstein) which skew the data due to their relatively small size.
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Jul 12, 2015 15:52
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Dead Reckoning posted:Except that ranking is a terrible way to measure, since homicide rate isn't anything close to linerally distributed by ranking, and the top ranks are likely to be dominated by city-states (Monaco, Liechtenstein) which skew the data due to their relatively small size. (I mainly used ranks because everything is inherently on the same scale AND intuitively interpretable.) I'm totally open to reasonable criticism, but this is just lazy.
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Jul 12, 2015 15:58
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FWIW robust regression gives basically indistinguishable results - coefficients are a tiny bit bigger.
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Jul 12, 2015 16:05
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Cingulate posted:Eye-balling the nations of Europe, there seems to be approximately 0 correlation between gun laws and violent crime. Finland, Norway, Switzerland: permissive gun laws, ~lowest murder rates in the world. Germany, UK: strict laws, ~lowest murder rates in the world. Human history is full of the powerful depriving the masses of weapons so they could trample on the other freedoms and abuse the them without serious fear of destruction. "But its not like that now!" one could say but the last 150-200 or so years where representative democracies, responsive to the desires of their citizens, have been the norm (and only really in the West). It would be foolish to assume that the current state of human affairs will continue into the future without change. It could very well be that 200 years hence all of humanity could be united in common purpose for the betterment of all but it is also equally likely we could regress (from our view point anyway) to the norm of human history. Despots and other warlords waging constant war with one another while repressing their subjects in order to exploit them for more men and material for those wars. In those few cases where common man could successfully resist the will of tyrants they could win concessions to better their situation. I am sure that you would agree that the right to self-defense is one of those great rights, after all what use are those other rights if others can enslave or harm you at their whim? What other method is common to all humans that they could employ for their own defense? A fit, young man could be reasonably expected to be able to defend himself with nothing but his fists (in a world where guns were not available), but not most women or the elderly. So guns it is.
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Jul 12, 2015 16:06
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