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I think that, generally, we shouldn't kill unarmed people using guns, in my opinion. It's, and this is only one man's opinion, a bad thing to be done.
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Jul 12, 2015 18:06
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Dapper_Swindler posted:I dont think this has been posted yet. Just to clarify they say they stopped him from going the wrong way on a one-way street on a bicycle. Yep, probable cause to rough people up boys! Can cops not smell the air and tell that people are getting real fed up with their poo poo?
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Jul 12, 2015 18:20
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Mr.48 posted:Just to clarify they say they stopped him from going the wrong way on a one-way street on a bicycle. Yep, probable cause to rough people up boys! I hate this type of comment for 2 reasons: 1. It isn't like if he was stopped for burglary it wouldn't be any better. This is exactly how we got into the bullshit arguments re: Ferguson whether he robbed the store or not: it didn't matter. 2. As a cyclist, I loving hate cyclists who ignore all the rules, and they should be stopped and ticketed (peacefully).
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Jul 12, 2015 18:38
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Mr.48 posted:Just to clarify they say they stopped him from going the wrong way on a one-way street on a bicycle. Yep, probable cause to rough people up boys! I highly doubt they care. What are you going to do, fight them?
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Jul 12, 2015 19:18
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Raerlynn posted:Okay, so building on this - would you be okay if becoming a police officer required a type of licensing similar to a lawyer or a doctor, and that revoking that license means the individual can never be employed in law enforcement in any capacity? Just to correct this point, medical licensing (the main barrier to entry to practicing medicine) is done by the states independently of each other. There is nothing to prevent someone from losing their license in one state from getting one to practice in another, and such things have happened many times before. Now each state will have a set of questions the applicant for a new license or renewal must answer, and they include things like asking whether you have been convicted of a crime, whether you have lost your license in a state or lost privileges to practice in a facility etc. that you must answer, but the applicant is free to lie about these. How much background checking is done by the states is up to them, I'm sure it varies greatly, I'd hope that they would all at least check each applicant for a criminal record but I don't even know if this is done. There is a federal database, the National Practitioner Data Bank, that maintains information about doctors that licensing boards and medical facilities can access, but I think it's inconsistent what kind of information is submitted to it.
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Jul 12, 2015 20:01
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And a large part of why this system is handled this way is, again, the 10th Amendment police powers issue. These aren't things that can be fully federalized.
Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Jul 12, 2015 |
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Jul 12, 2015 20:31
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nm posted:I hate this type of comment for 2 reasons: The point is that even if we buy into the narrative of him biting them and resisting arrest necessitating the use of force (which I obviously dont), the fact that they didnt have a reasonable cause to arrest him in the first place makes the entire affair so much worse.
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Jul 12, 2015 20:33
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Mr.48 posted:The point is that even if we buy into the narrative of him biting them and resisting arrest necessitating the use of force (which I obviously dont), the fact that they didnt have a reasonable cause to arrest him in the first place makes the entire affair so much worse. If we accept thier narrative, he was stopped for a moving violation, some factor (being black and nervious) cause them to pat search him, they found drugs, they arrested him and he resisted. Also, some states allow arrest for even minor infractions, (which has been upheld by the supreme court) but I don't know the law in PA.
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Jul 12, 2015 20:43
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Zwabu posted:How much background checking is done by the states is up to them, I'm sure it varies greatly, I'd hope that they would all at least check each applicant for a criminal record but I don't even know if this is done. This works for doctors and other licensed professions because they can be charged with crimes. Police are fired instead of being charged with a crime and they're free to join another police force because of that. Maybe some kind of third party licensing authority can be used but it's an inherently flawed system so I'm not really sure that trying to create a licensing authority is going to change anything. They'll just never revoke licenses and we'll be exactly where we were.
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Jul 12, 2015 22:24
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IN DEPTH: Blue wall of silence in Seidle case?quote:An attorney general directive states that all firearms are to be removed from an officer's home following a domestic violence allegation. Only the county prosecutor can authorize the return of a weapon. Police were called 21 times by one or both of the Seidle's since 2001, including five times this year, according to a summary released by Neptune. The police would not say what the calls were about, except for four cases that involved incidents unrelated to the shooting, like a minor car accident and vandalism.
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Jul 12, 2015 23:53
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Discendo Vox posted:And a large part of why this system is handled this way is, again, the 10th Amendment police powers issue. These aren't things that can be fully federalized. ElCondemn posted:This works for doctors and other licensed professions because they can be charged with crimes. Police are fired instead of being charged with a crime and they're free to join another police force because of that. Maybe some kind of third party licensing authority can be used but it's an inherently flawed system so I'm not really sure that trying to create a licensing authority is going to change anything. They'll just never revoke licenses and we'll be exactly where we were.
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Jul 13, 2015 00:21
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Dead Reckoning posted:I'm not disagreeing, but I do think the benefits of establishing a uniform standard for certifying peace officers on the state level outweigh the costs. I don't think I'm being clear, then. A meaningfully enforceable national standard for certifying peace officers would be unconstitutional. Such a standard would also be under the full control of a future hypothetical Republican administration- there's a reason the 10th Amendment exists. In practice, what you're describing may also require amendment of a significant number of state constitutions based on the current interpretation of the 10th. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Jul 13, 2015 |
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Jul 13, 2015 01:03
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DARPA posted:Police were called once per month to the Seidle's home prior to her public execution, yet officers did nothing to protect that woman. He was their friend you emotionless robot, how can you expect a friend to take a friend's guns in the split-second heat of months and months of incidents of domestic abuse. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Jul 13, 2015 |
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Jul 13, 2015 01:54
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DARPA posted:IN DEPTH: Blue wall of silence in Seidle case? "Sarge you taught us everything we know! Including how to brutalize our wives."
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Jul 13, 2015 01:56
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Execute every officer involved with any of the domestic violence calls. Obviously those on scene during the shooting as well.
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Jul 13, 2015 02:07
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VitalSigns posted:He was their friend you emotionless robot, how can you expect a friend to take a friend's guns in the split-second heat of months and months of incidents of domestic abuse. Oh, I'm sorry. I must have missed the part of the thread where people argued that the departments lack of intervention in a clearly escalating domestic violence situation wasn't a problem. Link pls.
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Jul 13, 2015 04:20
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ActusRhesus posted:Oh, I'm sorry. I must have missed the part of the thread where people argued that the departments lack of intervention in a clearly escalating domestic violence situation wasn't a problem. Link pls.  It's all part of the same problem of police not intervening to stop a murder when the perp is their armed buddy instead of an unarmed 12-year-old black kid who made a furtive movement
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Jul 13, 2015 06:37
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VitalSigns posted:
Yes. Because failing to act on a DV issue when one has time to plan a calm approach that doesn't end in shooting your friend (which everyone here agrees was a huge departmental failure) is totally the same as hesitating before killing someone you know. God you are loving assperger riddled goon.
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Jul 13, 2015 10:29
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If you concede that ignoring policy with regard to disarming a repeated offender of domestic abuse is an indication of an underlying culture of corruption and putting personal relationships above public safety in that department, then I don't see how you can deny that such a culture influenced the callousness toward the victim in the handling of the subsequent attack and murder in front of those same police officers. I mean really.
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Jul 13, 2015 10:45
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ActusRhesus posted:Yes. Because failing to act on a DV issue when one has time to plan a calm approach that doesn't end in shooting your friend (which everyone here agrees was a huge departmental failure) is totally the same as hesitating before killing someone you know. Nobody claimed that, and you should probably be slightly more careful with your insults, given your opinions and posts. The claim you're willfully misinterpreting is that failing to act on a DV issue because the perpetrator is a cop and failing to stop a shooting in progress because the perpetrator is a cop is part of the same problem, that problem being that people who break the law get different treatment because they are cops.
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Jul 13, 2015 10:56
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So is it your position that a force comprised entirely of people who were so unhuman they would not hesitate before shooting someone they know would be a good thing? Beep boop. Something Awful goonbot powering on. Run script "gently caress police"
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Jul 13, 2015 11:21
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botany posted:Nobody claimed that, and you should probably be slightly more careful with your insults, given your opinions and posts Please elaborate upon this statement.
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Jul 13, 2015 11:22
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No, that is not my position, which is why I never said anything even remotely like that. Any other strawmen you want to beat like a cop would a black teenager?
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Jul 13, 2015 11:23
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ActusRhesus posted:So is it your position that a force comprised entirely of people who were so unhuman they would not hesitate before shooting someone they know would be a good thing? You're white-knighting cronyism now? Vital institutions doing special favors for their friends to the detriment of the public they are supposed to be serving is bad, the discussion should be about how to create incentives not to do that and how to reform the system to make it less likely, not defending corruption as some warm fuzzy expression of brotherly love and goodwill among men.
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Jul 13, 2015 11:54
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VitalSigns posted:If you concede that ignoring policy with regard to disarming a repeated offender of domestic abuse is an indication of an underlying culture of corruption and putting personal relationships above public safety in that department, then I don't see how you can deny that such a culture influenced the callousness toward the victim in the handling of the subsequent attack and murder in front of those same police officers. I mean really. ActusRhesus posted:So is it your position that a force comprised entirely of people who were so unhuman they would not hesitate before shooting someone they know would be a good thing? "Cops have consistently shown to be biased well in the favor of other cops, as exemplified by both refusing to act against a cop who was a repeat offender of domestic abuse, and refusing to fire on said cop after he has killed said victim of domestic abuse in front of them and is clearly a threat, even though they are far more willing to fire on people whose threat level is far lower" is not the same thing as "Beep boop I want my cops to lack any empathy". In fact, I think most of us would prefer that cops were in general more empathetic and less selectively empathetic (towards only the good ol' boys in blue)! Are there any other windmills that need tilting at, Doņa Quixote?
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Jul 13, 2015 11:58
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One can think the way they responded to the escalating DV situation (not at all) prior to the day of the shooting was completely unacceptable, while also recognizing that shooting someone you know is loving hard if you are, you know...a human. that's hardly white knighting cronyism.
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Jul 13, 2015 12:17
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His wife died while the police watched him shoot her multiple times but the real victims here are the men and women who may have had to do their job 
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Jul 13, 2015 12:19
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OK. So again, you want a police force comprised of people who would not hesitate before shooting someone they know.
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Jul 13, 2015 12:22
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ActusRhesus posted:One can think the way they responded to the escalating DV situation (not at all) prior to the day of the shooting was completely unacceptable, while also recognizing that shooting someone you know is loving hard if you are, you know...a human. that's hardly white knighting cronyism. Yeah it was definitely a natural human impulse, maybe professionals should be trained and held to a higher standard of behavior than the human impulse to cower and break under fire, or retch at the sight of blood, or protect their friend while he's murdering his bitch of an ex-wife. Do you treat other professions this way? "Hey it's human nature to bone an attractive, willing woman you goon, how dare you insist psychiatrists become beep-boop robots who refuse to gently caress their patients out of professional ethics" ActusRhesus posted:OK. So again, you want a police force comprised of people who would not hesitate before shooting someone they know. I want a professional force that is capable of having empathy for the strangers they are ostensibly committed to protect and serve, and to put public safety above personal attachments. You know, the same thing we expect of other professions.
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Jul 13, 2015 12:23
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I'm not going to insult you by pretending you don't see the flaw in your logic.
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Jul 13, 2015 12:24
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There was time to take in the situation, realize what's going on, and then shoot him, even after hesitating. Cut the bull
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Jul 13, 2015 12:25
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ActusRhesus posted:OK. So again, you want a police force comprised of people who would not hesitate before shooting someone they know. The guy has a history of abusing his wife, shot her in front of his kid, then waited a little while and shot her again. loving shoot him and try to save his loving wife, the innocent victim.
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Jul 13, 2015 12:25
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ActusRhesus posted:So is it your position that a force comprised entirely of people who were so unhuman they would not hesitate before shooting someone they know would be a good thing? They seem to be "unhuman" [sic] enough to shoot a 12 year old child without hesitation or checking for a weapon. So we are already there in terms of cops not giving a poo poo about the lives of ordinary (read: not rich) citizens, but they sure seem to care about each other to the point of letting those same ordinary citizens be murdered because of their "brotherly love".
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Jul 13, 2015 12:29
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ActusRhesus posted:I'm not going to insult you by pretending you don't see the flaw in your logic. Please explain why expecting professionals to put public safety over their personal affections is flawed. WhiskeyJuvenile posted:There was time to take in the situation, realize what's going on, and then shoot him, even after hesitating. Cut the bull Ah but see while he was firing everything was happening too fast to do anything. And once he stopped firing and they had time to analyze the situation, he wasn't firing anymore so the armed man waving a pistol around wasn't a threat to anyone. And then when he started firing again, wow what a surprise everything was happening too fast, and then...
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Jul 13, 2015 12:30
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VitalSigns posted:Please explain why expecting professionals to put public safety over their personal affections is flawed. comparing a doctor's decision to rape a patient and a cop's decision to kill is flawed and you know it.
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Jul 13, 2015 12:31
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ActusRhesus posted:comparing a doctor's decision to rape a patient and a cop's decision to kill is flawed and you know it. Both are breaches of the public trust put into them when they were hired, cheers.
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Jul 13, 2015 12:33
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:There was time to take in the situation, realize what's going on, and then shoot him, even after hesitating. Cut the bull and yes. that's what should have happened...but chalking it up to cronyism rather than human nature is what's bull and you know it.
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Jul 13, 2015 12:33
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ActusRhesus posted:comparing a doctor's decision to rape a patient and a cop's decision to kill is flawed and you know it. So a cop's decision too shoot is beyond the reach of professional ethics, or what. What do we even need the police for, if we're cool letting everyone rely on their raw human instincts to fight crime, vigilanteism is a lot cheaper from the standpoint of tax expenditures.
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Jul 13, 2015 12:33
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ActusRhesus posted:and yes. that's what should have happened...but chalking it up to cronyism rather than human nature is what's bull and you know it. What were the months of those officers failing to disarm a man despite multiple calls for domestic abuse, human nature?
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Jul 13, 2015 12:34
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GreyPowerVan posted:Both are breaches of the public trust put into them when they were hired, cheers. selling loose cigarettes and armed robbery are both illegal. So both offenders pose an equal risk to society, right? wrong
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Jul 13, 2015 12:34
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