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Absurd Alhazred posted:Thank you, this is very informative. Welcome, and thank you for saying so. In my social circles this is the nice interpretation. Stronger versions throw in MLK's quote about how the biggest problem isn't the racists but rather the white folks who pretend to be allies but mostly just drag their feet and argue that now isn't the right time for progress. I initially was highly skeptical of such assertions as they were phrased specifically in terms of privilege and while being a white male in an affluent state certainly limits his ability to experience hardship first hand, it in no way means he is incapable of listening, learning, and empathizing. However, while looking for evidence to confirm or deny that assertion I have discovered what I am going to call Vermont-ism. Vermont, for example, has a high school drop out rate under 3%. http://education.vermont.gov/documents/EDU-Data_2013_2014_DropComplReport.pdf High school completion is not a problem Vermont has and thus, logically, is not a problem that is going to be on the radar of a man who has represented Vermont on the hill for 25 years. He may understand it intellectually, but not in his gut. Arkansas, meanwhile, has a huge problem with high school completion. Governor Clinton put his First Lady in charge of efforts to improve it that were very successful, but since they left the state backslid/ cut funding and is in the mid-70's again. So Hillary has struggled with these kinds of problems first hand as an executive in way Bernie has simply never needed to. Or another example is that friend pointed out to me that the video he has posted on his own campaign web site about ferguson is dripping with racist dog whistles and implied that the police presence in ferguson was an understandable response to the criminality of its unemployed youth. http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/video-audio/ferguson I find the suggestion that he is whistling on purpose to be ludicrous. But accidental whistling is still a problem. It shows a lack of awareness of racial issues that call into question his understanding of them. Again, vermont-ism is an adequate explanation. Vermont is over 95% white with 1.4% Asian. Blacks clock in at 1.2% and Hispanics at 1.7%. http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/50000.html In order for racism to be a local issue you need there to actually be enough of the minorities to form distinct communities/neighborhoods. During the years of my childhood spent in the neighboring New Hampshire I sincerely believed that racism was a bad thing that happened long ago but the civil war fixed it. Non-whites were exotic, not threatening. Racism was an academic topic, not something you saw practical examples of. Then I moved to Kansas to a town roughly 1/3rd black and I learned that racism was alive and well in America. Arkansas census data from 1980 shows a black population of 16.3 % ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_demographics_of_the_United_States ). The Clinton's were very active in outreach to the black community and black support of Bills presidential run was legendary. And that's ignoring Hillary's stint as SoS and her foundation's work in Africa. Now, logically, it would be very difficult for Sanders to gain the kind of first hand experiences that Clinton has on racial issues. Not impossible, but it would require active effort on his part to look outside his back yard and expand his horizons. Not only can I find no evidence that he has done this, the Internet is awash with quotes from him justifying why he doesn't have to. When he talks about race at all - which is rare - he sounds like a Republican. This person sums it up nicely and embeds a lot of links to interviews referenced so I don't have to: http://thedailybanter.com/2015/06/this-interview-shows-why-bernie-sanders-is-losing-african-american-support/ quote:
It is essentially impossible for him to have a better grasp of the details than Clinton on many issues given his tremendous gap in first hand experience and his apparent lack of intellectual curiosity.
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Jul 13, 2015 07:39
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From polls I have seen about 30% of the country wants us to invade/bomb Iran yesterday, and another 30% is open to being convinced about the necessity. No one learned anything from Iraq because only 1% of the country had to sacrifice anything. Hell, Bush started two wars and CUT taxes. If people learned anything it's that war makes their payday a little bit nicer and involves the government sending everybody a $300 check.
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Jul 13, 2015 07:39
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Qurnah posted:I'm hoping that I'm not giving the US public too much credit when I assume that they're not gonna sacrifice their young men and women in another pointless goose chase with unimaginable far reaching consequences. Why wouldn't we?
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Jul 13, 2015 07:48
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Kellsterik posted:Why wouldn't we? Okay I'll play. Lets say one of the establishment candidates Jeb, Rubio or Walker wins the general election and tears up the agreement. Saber rattling ensues and Israel fires the first shots by bombing an Iranian nuclear facility. Is America then by virtue of being Israels military ally automatically at war against Iran too? Don't congress and the senate need to vote before starting what could evolve inte WW3? Do your duty to Israel actually mean that you always need to support their acts of aggression without question? I can in some way understand how a big chunk of the american public and their elected officials in the aftermath of 9/11 sanctioned the war against Iraq. As a nation you were wounded and not thinking straight. You were afraid and you wanted revenge and lashed out. I watched it all unfold, I was only in high school when it went down but I remember when the world held it's breath in anticipation for what was about to come. I have a hard time imagining how even a republican president could convince the nation that yet again you have the need to squander untold lives and resources because Israel got trigger happy. How are you gonna handle the deficit with another war going on? And you're gonna infuriate pretty much the whole world except Israel. A sitting president that isn't a complete lunatic I'm thinking it's not worth the risk of completley ruining the country and earning the scorn of the international community. But just to be sure, please elect one of the democratic candidates. But then again if you elect a egotistical narcissist like Trump something like this might actually happen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj9M34DzAKo
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Jul 13, 2015 08:30
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SedanChair posted:When Berke Breathed steps out you know somebody has hosed up. Only Reagan-level absurdity can summon him. Now if Tim Kreider were to come back all would be complete.
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Jul 13, 2015 08:35
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KiteAuraan posted:Now if Tim Kreider were to come back all would be complete. Regans is bad, but I don't know if the world can handle the level of Bush needed to rouse Kreider.
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Jul 13, 2015 08:39
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McAlister's points that Bernie might not have the experience to be as good a functionary as Hillary are valid, but I'm going to vote for him because he's the only candidate who is willing to tackle the corporate oligarchy that dominates the country. Getting money out of politics is the most important issue to me, as otherwise we'll continue to have a dysfunctional system where members of Congress represent their donors over their constituents and suck the country dry at our expense. I feel like nothing can really be done to fix the country's myriad problems until the system's corruption is cured and we have a real representative democracy. Also he's the only candidate who is genuine and who sticks to his guns, instead of pandering and lying to get elected. Not to mention that I agree with like 95% of said guns.
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Jul 13, 2015 09:08
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I wonder if the Democratic party is about to get really racist, whitespaining to black people why Bernie's upper middle class socialism will cure them and wondering why all those people are so uninformed that they haven't even heard about Bernie yet (because if they knew about him they'd vote for him).
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Jul 13, 2015 09:15
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McAlister posted:Welcome, and thank you for saying so. "Sanders went to Brooklyn College for a year before transferring to the University of Chicago. While there, he was active in the Civil Rights Movement, and a student organizer for the Congress of Racial Equality and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.] One of the actions he took was the coordination of sit-in protests against segregated campus housing. Sanders also participated in the 1963 March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom." Casting him in the "white folks who pretend to be allies but mostly just drag their feet and argue that now isn't the right time for progress" role is absurd. I don't think calling for body cameras or demilitarizing the police sounds like something a republican would say, either. This whole angle strikes me as grasping for an avenue of attack.
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Jul 13, 2015 09:27
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But he's yet another old white guy, Vox. You don't understand.
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Jul 13, 2015 09:29
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“We need more police, we need more and tougher prison sentences for repeat offenders,” Hillary Clinton said in 1994. “The three strikes and you’re out for violent offenders has to be part of the plan. We need more prisons to keep violent offenders for as long as it takes to keep them off the streets.”
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Jul 13, 2015 09:35
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It's also worth noting that Hillary Clinton is a longtime advocate of the death penalty. Despite her recent attempts to pander to the activist left, I sincerely doubt this core position has changed; it would, in fact, weaken her in the general election, which her platform is carefully crafted to push her through. Oh yeah, the death penalty thing! Bernie Sanders opposes it, of course.
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Jul 13, 2015 10:02
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Stereotype posted:I wonder if the Democratic party is about to get really racist, whitespaining to black people why Bernie's upper middle class socialism will cure them and wondering why all those people are so uninformed that they haven't even heard about Bernie yet (because if they knew about him they'd vote for him). That's definitely one way it could go. It could also go, y'know, nowhere, seeing as it's a transparently-manufactured concern troll being put forward by Hillary supporters and basically no one else. That's also a way it could go. VV Yeah, but no one is actually arguing that, their argument is that she doesn't have any strong principles one way or the other. Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Jul 13, 2015 |
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Jul 13, 2015 10:27
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Vox Nihili posted:It's also worth noting that Hillary Clinton is a longtime advocate of the death penalty. Despite her recent attempts to pander to the activist left, I sincerely doubt this core position has changed; it would, in fact, weaken her in the general election, which her platform is carefully crafted to push her through. Its fascinating how the positions she takes in a primary where she has virtually no real threats are just pandering, but the positions she was forced to take to support her husband during the birth of the Republican wave, THAT was her true colors.
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Jul 13, 2015 10:38
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Jul 13, 2015 10:44
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I honestly doubt that Hillary Clinton has any sincere beliefs at this point in her life. She believes that she should be President, and that the Democratic Party is her route to that office. Hillary panders very well so she'll reflect the views of the electorate, but with no sincerity. If I were in a swing state I'd still vote for her though.
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Jul 13, 2015 10:44
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Thats a super nice stage. He has so much loving money holy cow.
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Jul 13, 2015 10:53
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Up next the musical stylings of Rock Afire Explosion!
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Jul 13, 2015 11:52
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Random rear end in a top hat posted:That's definitely one way it could go. I'm not a concern troll, Bernie Sanders' ideals are closer to mine than Hillary's (though I'm a lot farther to the 'left' than he is, as far as a two-dimensional scale means anything) and I'll be voting for Sanders in the primary. I've been consistent in saying that I think Sanders has the best interests of the US's black community at heart. I want him to start talking about racial issues directly, disconnected from economic issues or at least as causative of economic issues rather than resulting from racial issues, precisely because he is becoming the face of the progressive movement in the US and a large focus is on him. Sanders' activities long before he became a legislator are not going to carry much weight in the modern day, what McAllister was talking about was his role since becoming a legislator, and what he's had to concern himself with. Calling people who want Sanders to improve (and believe he can improve) in his connection to minority interests is not concern trolling, and it's really tiresome to continually be treated like some ardent HIllary supporter for wanting Sanders to improve. I've been heartened by how much people are connecting to Sanders economic message, but I am worried by how much some of his supporters appear to believe that racial issues in this country largely stem from economic sources, which they do not. The worst case scenario for me right now is Sanders winning the primary while simultaneously turning off and failing to connect with non-white groups, whose activism and support are absolutely key. Reassuring me that Sandres will get around to minority issues eventually is not very reassuring, and I agree with McAllister that the continual framing of minorities' woes as based in economics represents a point of view from Sanders that indicates a lack of actual engagement with minorities. Again, I completely believe Sanders, who is an excellent human being and whose sincerity I believe in, can make real improvement on this, not just for his presidential ambitions but for his role as a senator. Treating criticism of Sanders on this issue as concern trolling is dismissive and short-sighted.
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Jul 13, 2015 11:57
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Chamale posted:I honestly doubt that Hillary Clinton has any sincere beliefs at this point in her life. She believes that she should be President, and that the Democratic Party is her route to that office. Hillary panders very well so she'll reflect the views of the electorate, but with no sincerity. If I were in a swing state I'd still vote for her though. The word "pandering" has some implications that you may not intend but it's synonymous with "pimping" to the point that many places have laws against "pimping and pandering". It's the same as calling Al Sharpton a "race pimp", just using a more archaic term. It's not just that Clinton is insincere and metaphorically prostituting herself out, it's also that in doing so she's catering to some sort of base or illegitimate desire rather than a community's expressed needs. I support Bernie Sanders and I think that reducing economic inequality stands to benefit everyone. At the same time if he's focusing on the banks and megadonors, it's entirely reasonable for someone to assume that he's more interested in those than in racial inequality.
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Jul 13, 2015 12:14
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Obdicut posted:I'm not a concern troll, Bernie Sanders' ideals are closer to mine than Hillary's (though I'm a lot farther to the 'left' than he is, as far as a two-dimensional scale means anything) and I'll be voting for Sanders in the primary. In his Wisconsin speech he had a lengthy section where he talked about police brutality and that young African Americans need to be able to walk down the street without being abused or worse. He needs to actually relay that and much more to black voters in person though, Wisconsin is really white.
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Jul 13, 2015 12:36
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Chamale posted:I honestly doubt that Hillary Clinton has any sincere beliefs at this point in her life. She believes that she should be President, and that the Democratic Party is her route to that office. Hillary panders very well so she'll reflect the views of the electorate, but with no sincerity. If I were in a swing state I'd still vote for her though. Did you just reduce her to Frank Underwood?
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Jul 13, 2015 12:39
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Apologies if this has been covered before, but is there any sort of mainstream coverage saying that Sanders' minority credentials are an issue, or is this something more like we in D&D are seeing Sanders' performance among minorities in what polls we have and we're seeing Sanders not really making a dedicated effort to reach out to them and we're getting worried that he needs to start working on it before it becomes a mainstream issue?
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Jul 13, 2015 12:40
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gradenko_2000 posted:Apologies if this has been covered before, but is there any sort of mainstream coverage saying that Sanders' minority credentials are an issue, or is this something more like we in D&D are seeing Sanders' performance among minorities in what polls we have and we're seeing Sanders not really making a dedicated effort to reach out to them and we're getting worried that he needs to start working on it before it becomes a mainstream issue? Sanders performance with minorities in pills I don't think I'd particularly worrisome for him yet, and I don't think it's a story the media is particularly pushing, but just watching his events and messaging so far I do feel like this is an area he needs to improve on.
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Jul 13, 2015 13:04
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Chamale posted:I honestly doubt that Hillary Clinton has any sincere beliefs at this point in her life. She believes that she should be President, and that the Democratic Party is her route to that office. Hillary panders very well so she'll reflect the views of the electorate, but with no sincerity. If I were in a swing state I'd still vote for her though. Man, it's disheartening how the Republican meme that Hillary Clinton is a selfish grasping bitch has been absorbed by their enemies.
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Jul 13, 2015 13:04
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The Walker announcement video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDmqbE1WjM4
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Jul 13, 2015 13:16
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Donald warns of a grave future if he is not elected.
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Jul 13, 2015 13:19
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don Jaime posted:Man, it's disheartening how the Republican meme that Hillary Clinton is a selfish grasping bitch has been absorbed by their enemies. Recognizing that biases can be harmful isn't sufficient to become free of bias. At times it can be counterproductive if we identify bias in others but fail to recognize it in ourselves. This isn't to say everyone's equally biased but we need to remain mindful of the possibility rather than treating it as something only certain people are prone to.
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Jul 13, 2015 13:21
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Walker looks like Shannen Doherty
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Jul 13, 2015 13:22
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Fulchrum posted:Did you just reduce her to Frank Underwood? The comparison is apt. don Jaime posted:Man, it's disheartening how the Republican meme that Hillary Clinton is a selfish grasping bitch has been absorbed by their enemies. It's true of many career politicians, not some flaw unique to Hillary Clinton. Just look at the way she effortlessly changes her viewpoints to match popular opinion, on Iraq, gay marriage, taxes, and more. Bernie Sanders has principles he holds despite their unpopularity, and those are good principles. Donald Trump has sincere principles and they're terrible, but he's not a weathervane candidate. A politician who tries to have whatever opinion polls best is not as good as one with good principles, but still better than a politician with bad principles.
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Jul 13, 2015 13:23
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Wow, he even looks bad from twenty feet away. Chamale posted:I honestly doubt that Hillary Clinton has any sincere beliefs at this point in her life. She believes that she should be President, and that the Democratic Party is her route to that office. Hillary panders very well so she'll reflect the views of the electorate, but with no sincerity. If I were in a swing state I'd still vote for her though. What is it with people projecting this empty political vessel thing onto Clinton? She's been in DC for over twenty years, of course she's going to sound like she's from DC. That doesn't mean she has no thoughts of her own and it's a really hosed up thing to say unless you've dealt with her personally and can say so from experience. Sir Tonk fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Jul 13, 2015 |
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Jul 13, 2015 13:28
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In the context of "the problem with a weathervane/populist politician is that they may well take the wrong stand on an issue just because that's what their constituency wants" (and setting aside how their constituency may have been mislead to want something against their best interests), what was the mood of the public with regards to, say, the Iraq War? Was Senator Clinton voting with or against her constituency at the time?
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Jul 13, 2015 13:30
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Walker's dumbass logo on the wall doesn't read if you do the basic squint-test; the values of the red blend in to those of the wood behind it, so it looks like WALK* R Even then I refuse to read that as an E under better circumstances, because if you changed the hues to the same blue, the shape is not recognizably a letter.
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Jul 13, 2015 13:32
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Walk to the ER
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Jul 13, 2015 13:33
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ZenVulgarity posted:Walk to the ER This is lovely.
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Jul 13, 2015 13:34
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Joementum posted:The Walker announcement video. I hate him
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Jul 13, 2015 13:38
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gradenko_2000 posted:In the context of "the problem with a weathervane/populist politician is that they may well take the wrong stand on an issue just because that's what their constituency wants" (and setting aside how their constituency may have been mislead to want something against their best interests), what was the mood of the public with regards to, say, the Iraq War? Was Senator Clinton voting with or against her constituency at the time? With. Most Americans wanted to invade Iraq in 2003.
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Jul 13, 2015 13:42
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Scott Walker had to be talked out of naming one of his kids "Luke Sky Walker." gently caress him. 
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Jul 13, 2015 13:43
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Kro-Bar posted:Scott Walker had to be talked out of naming one of his kids "Luke Sky Walker." That about the only thing I've heard about this guy so far that I can respect.
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Jul 13, 2015 13:44
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| # ? May 14, 2024 18:59 |
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What does every Republican mean by making the country great again
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Jul 13, 2015 13:44
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