|
Don't put Rothfuss and Pratchett in one sentence. Seriously.
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2015 16:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 07:36 |
|
|
mallamp posted:Have you read much fantasy? Most of it, even most of the popular ones, appear to be written by 15 year-olds so writers like Rothfuss or Pratchett shine easily even if they aren't actually well-written. I read some David Mitchell after just finishing a run of the mill fantasy novel and it made me never want to go back. Also seconding the request not to compare Rothfuss and Pratchett as if they were equals.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2015 17:25
|
|
|
For one, Pratchett wrote basically nonstop until that disease took him away from it. Rothfuss is struggling to put out a third book. Like others have said, I'm really hoping the third book is better than the first two, but I'll be just as happy if it is a total garbage heap and he just abandons Kvothe and just writes a bunch of new novels about different characters in the same world. I find it pretty interesting and his writing style might be better if he focuses on interesting things like the tree whose name I forget and the fight in the woods against the Chandrian and bandits.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2015 19:02
|
|
|
Solice Kirsk posted:For one, Pratchett wrote basically nonstop until that disease took him away from it. Rothfuss is struggling to put out a third book. Like others have said, I'm really hoping the third book is better than the first two, but I'll be just as happy if it is a total garbage heap and he just abandons Kvothe and just writes a bunch of new novels about different characters in the same world. I find it pretty interesting and his writing style might be better if he focuses on interesting things like the tree whose name I forget and the fight in the woods against the Chandrian and bandits. He should write about a secondary school for magic opening. Due to staff cuts and funding difficulties, they aren't able to compete in the struggling magic children market. Soon, the founders will look to merge their school with a nearby school for ninjas and the local mythical creature's prostitution ring.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2015 22:26
|
|
|
Solice Kirsk posted:For one, Pratchett wrote basically nonstop until that disease took him away from it. Rothfuss is struggling to put out a third book. Like others have said, I'm really hoping the third book is better than the first two, but I'll be just as happy if it is a total garbage heap and he just abandons Kvothe and just writes a bunch of new novels about different characters in the same world. I find it pretty interesting and his writing style might be better if he focuses on interesting things like the tree whose name I forget and the fight in the woods against the Chandrian and bandits. Supposedly his plans are for Kingkiller to only be 3 books long (meaning we likely won't get any real ending or it'll be hamfisted as hell) and then the next books are supposed to be about other characters, including Bast, and tie together in a single bigass overarching story. This requires him to actually write the books though and considering Slow Regard was him screaming "I'm a
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2015 00:14
|
|
|
I kind of just want to read a wiki synopsis of what finally happens to Kvothe but I doubt there'll even be enough closure for that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2015 02:44
|
|
|
I'm not saying Rothfuss and Pratchett are of equal quality, and I'm not dissing them either, I'm just saying that in fantasy literature standards are a lot lower than outside the sf bubble. Pratchett is probably the greatest fantasy writer I know of, and one of the few that I'd accept as greater writer outside fantasy context, but if I start looking at him on sentence level or at his ability to craft plots outside genre conventions, he's not that masterful writer mallamp fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Jul 16, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2015 07:08
|
|
|
mallamp posted:I'm not saying Rothfuss and Pratchett are of equal quality, and I'm not dissing them either, I'm just saying that in fantasy literature standards are a lot lower than outside the sf bubble. I typed a bunch of stuff then realized I missed the word not in your comparison of Rothfuss and Pratchett. That said, I wouldn't be so quick to lump scifi and fantasy together either. The standards for sf writing are a fair bit higher than those for fantasy. It's not coincidence that the Hugo goes to a scifi novel more often than not. Speaking of which, Ancillary Justice is amazing and people should read it while they wait for Rothfuss to release a novel on his Martorian time line.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2015 08:04
|
|
|
mallamp posted:I'm not saying Rothfuss and Pratchett are of equal quality, and I'm not dissing them either, I'm just saying that in fantasy literature standards are a lot lower than outside the sf bubble. I honestly haven't read much Pratchett, but what exactly do you mean by "looking at him on sentence level?" What are you looking for at the sentence level? I hope we're not talking more like lovely Rothfuss purple prose.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2015 09:18
|
|
|
Evil Fluffy posted:Supposedly his plans are for Kingkiller to only be 3 books long (meaning we likely won't get any real ending or it'll be hamfisted as hell) and then the next books are supposed to be about other characters, including Bast, and tie together in a single bigass overarching story. Bast is about a 1000 times more interesting than Kvothe, so that sounds cool.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2015 10:36
|
|
|
Watching paint dry is 1000 times more interesting than Kvothe.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2015 10:38
|
|
|
Guys! Kvothe wants to tell his story the way he sees it! Not like the many interesting and heroic and cool stories that everyone in the world knows and loves! Its better this way.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2015 12:55
|
|
|
mallamp posted:I'm just saying that in fantasy literature standards are a lot lower than outside the sf bubble. They really aren't.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2015 15:50
|
|
|
It's probably more that we're forgiving to bad writing if it's accompanied by a good story, imagery or ideas.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2015 15:54
|
|
|
anilEhilated posted:It's probably more that we're forgiving to bad writing if it's accompanied by a good story, imagery or ideas. Rothfuss is the opposite. Good writing. Bad story. Robin Hobb's positive review on Amazon noted that she felt like she was journeying with a bunch of "friends". I think this feeling is the major split in opinion about his novels. People who really like fantasy, like Hobbs, often enjoy large amounts of world building and minor anecdotes with the characters. I was looking for an engaging story and just never got that feeling because of that. I didn't mind the characteristics of Kvothe, how females were treated, etc. etc. just that i felt like nothing major had happened when I put the first book down.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2015 18:06
|
|
|
esn2500 posted:Good writing. Holy gently caress please explain this
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2015 22:39
|
|
|
Lots of people (even in this thread) have complimented Rothfuss's prose, while complaining about the story.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2015 23:24
|
|
|
That doesn't answer my question at all. What do people like about his writing? What is "good" about it?
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2015 01:16
|
|
|
Martello posted:That doesn't answer my question at all. What do people like about his writing? What is "good" about it? So there's this thing called 'subjectivity'
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2015 01:30
|
|
|
I think he's really excellent at creating a picture of a world that is deeply and fully realized, with hints of things that aren't fully explained which only serve to make the reader wonder further about the place they're in. He describes his settings really well, and weaves the details into the ongoing story. He just happens to be writing about the most annoying, mundane Mary Sue, surrounded by far more interesting people and places. That said, a big part of the "hidden" story is about Kvothe, despite his supposed intellect, being clueless about the archetype of an Amyr he is growing into, about being on the wrong side of the conflict as he supposes, and about the dozen of subtle hints that we all get about the true nature of the story and that he misses. I don't think Rothfuss is a good enough writer to make the reveal(s) about everything important that Kvothe missed and failed to see, entertaining enough to make up for him being an annoying, pompous white knight for all of two books and however much of the third until his inevitable downfall.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2015 01:43
|
|
|
Nevermind, beaten
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2015 01:44
|
|
|
the JJ posted:So there's this thing called 'subjectivity' Yes, thank you. I'm asking for opinions on why his writing is good. For example, I think Cormac McCarthy is a fantastic writer even if he refuses to use quotation marks like some pompous multi-award winning author. And I can tell you what I like I about his prose: sparse, bleak, to-the-point, can paint a picture with as few words as possible. He's excellent at establishing mood through a character's actions as well as words. Etc. Earlier I said this about why I don't like Rothfuss' prose: Martello posted:I only read the first few chapters before I felt like killing myself, but to me his writing "craft" was the worst part of a lovely novel. Long, meandering sentences, said-bookisms out the rear end, adverb excess, trite and cliché descriptions, I could go on and on. A few more reasons: he named his tribe of Mary Sues the Edema Ruh. Holy poo poo, he couldn't even run his dumb fantasy names he thought up on the toilet through Google once? And Kvothe. Say that name out loud, maybe two or three names. Then there's Bast. You don't just name a ~*fae prince*~ after an Egyptian cat goddess and then pretend you didn't. Yes, I know his full name is Bast's-rear end or whatever. He still named him Bast. In general, his fantasy names/words sound like poo poo he pulled out of his rear end without a second thought. He introduces the nickname "E'lir" and the concept of "alar" in the same chapter. The words are basically the same. I could go on, and probably more if I read through the book. mallamp posted:Have you read much fantasy? Most of it, even most of the popular ones, appear to be written by 15 year-olds so writers like Rothfuss or Pratchett shine easily even if they aren't actually well-written. Yeah, this can be true, and is why I don't read much fantasy anymore. Unfortunately, because I love fantasy as a concept. But that doesn't make Rothfuss actually good by comparison. Martello fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Jul 17, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2015 01:48
|
|
|
Aquarium Gravel posted:I think he's really excellent at creating a picture of a world that is deeply and fully realized... I think a lot of what you're talking about is probably his storytelling. Maybe this is just the way I break it down personally, but I see most books as products of four major things - storytelling, plot, characters, and prose. Rothfuss is good at storytelling, because even with my disgust for his prose, characters, and plot, I was still intrigued by the world in general and where he was going to go with it. But then I had to hack through plodding, stilted prose, dreadful and boring characters, and a meandering plot that went nowhere for pages. You gotta get at least two of the four things right.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2015 01:54
|
|
|
Martello posted:I think a lot of what you're talking about is probably his storytelling. Maybe this is just the way I break it down personally, but I see most books as products of four major things - storytelling, plot, characters, and prose. Rothfuss is good at storytelling, because even with my disgust for his prose, characters, and plot, I was still intrigued by the world in general and where he was going to go with it. But then I had to hack through plodding, stilted prose, dreadful and boring characters, and a meandering plot that went nowhere for pages. For me its the mystery. With most fantasy series that I start to read, I'll read everything thats been released and then mostly forget it, chances are never finishing the series (Probably not going to finish the Blood song trilogy, the scourge of the betrayer series, the Brent Weeks light series, etc. Juries out on the Gentlemen Bastard series and the Lies of Locke Lamora is one of my favourite fantasy books) Some of those books were better written / more enjoyable to read than the Kingkiller chronicles, but the only questions that arose were 'how are the heroes of do goodery going to solve this problem?" With the Kingkiller books I have no idea why the chandrian are doing what they're doing, or how Kvothe fucks everything up. I know its going to be disappointing or stupid but it keeps me thinking about the series.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2015 02:13
|
|
|
Martello posted:That doesn't answer my question at all. What do people like about his writing? What is "good" about it? They've never read anything outside of genre lit and thus anything that deviates from bog standard fantasy writing is noteworthy. If someone tells you Rothfuss write "beautiful prose" give them a real book or stop hanging out with them. Martello posted:
This is a genre problem with conlangs. I loving hate that everyone seems to feel a need to do it because Tolkien did it. Tolkien was a linguist, you are not. If you, as an author, are poo poo at something don't make it prominent in your story, or allude to it without spelling it out. Example: Kvothe talks about playing the most sad/beautiful (I forget which) song in the world, which is fine, but then Rothfuss decides to actually write out the lyrics, which are high school emo band at best. It kills the scene because the song is so laughably bad that you as a reader can't buy into it being super sad/beautiful if you've actually experience human emotions before. Karnegal fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Jul 17, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2015 06:59
|
|
|
Martello posted:Holy gently caress please explain this ? His writing abilities are almost never in question, it's pretty much always the story. If you define story and then define writing, you'll notice there is a major difference in the terms.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2015 14:37
|
|
|
So i'd say Catherynne Valente has far better prose then Rothfuss, but as good as I find her stories they're often very odd to follow and scatterbrained. At the very least name of the wind is easy to follow and has a great number of allusions to things he lets your imagination fill in and try to connect the dots.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2015 15:56
|
|
|
Martello posted:What do you mean by this? I only read the first few chapters before I felt like killing myself, but to me his writing "craft" was the worst part of a lovely novel. Long, meandering sentences, said-bookisms out the rear end, adverb excess, trite and cliché descriptions, I could go on and on. His writing is beautiful. The words sound really good when I run them through my head. It's definitely the direct opposite in style from the kind of sparse prose you seem to be a big fan of. But, you know, there's more than one kind of good prose.  If reading a book you didn't like made you want to kill yourself, please seek help. If you were just being extraordinarily hyperbolic, that level of hostile negativity isn't exactly a great way to figure out where other people are coming from. Karnegal posted:If someone tells you Rothfuss write "beautiful prose" give them a real book or stop hanging out with them. If you stop being friends with someone over a difference in opinion about fiction, you are a shallow rear end in a top hat.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2015 16:30
|
|
|
Wittgen posted:If you stop being friends with someone over a difference in opinion about fiction, you are a shallow rear end in a top hat. You forget there is only one factual & objective point of view about the books and if you disagree you are a terrible readist and should be banned from books forever. 
Dershiva fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jul 17, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2015 18:55
|
|
|
Goons, show me on this doll where Kvothe touched you.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2015 18:56
|
|
|
The Slithery D posted:Goons, show me on this doll where Kvothe touched you. I took the doll from The Slithery D in one smooth motion using Leaf Turning in Air. Grabbing it firmly I gestured to the spot where Kvothe had touched me. It was a gesture in two parts.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2015 19:34
|
|
|
Wittgen posted:His writing is beautiful. The words sound really good when I run them through my head. It's definitely the direct opposite in style from the kind of sparse prose you seem to be a big fan of. But, you know, there's more than one kind of good prose. No one has ever used hyperbole on the internet.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2015 20:13
|
|
|
Solice Kirsk posted:I took the doll from The Slithery D in one smooth motion using Leaf Turning in Air. Grabbing it firmly I gestured to the spot where Kvothe had touched me. It was a gesture in two parts. Perfect, except we need 2 more paragraphs describing how it was two parts, and telling me how hard your alar was when he touched you.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2015 20:17
|
|
|
The Slithery D posted:Goons, show me on this doll where Kvothe touched you. I'm just more fascinated how there's such a large difference in opinion, yet it was such a popular debut, even among the critics. I was just like meh
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2015 20:27
|
|
|
Solice Kirsk posted:I took the doll from The Slithery D in one smooth motion using Leaf Turning in Air. Grabbing it firmly I gestured to the spot where Kvothe had touched me. It was a gesture in two parts. Yes but how much money did he have and how much more did he have to raise and by when?
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2015 20:51
|
|
|
Dienes posted:Perfect, except we need 2 more paragraphs describing how it was two parts, and telling me how hard your alar was when he touched you. "It was the patient, cut-flower sound of a man waiting for 2 more paragraphs."
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2015 22:36
|
|
|
Did not expect to see so much hate for Rothfuss here, tbh. But then, I have a weird and inexplicable fondness of complex and difficult sentence structures, so maybe that's my problem right there. Personally, I lost sleep over The Wise Man's Fear. As in, I read until something like 5 in the morning, tried to go to sleep, and couldn't because the book had my mind racing. So I got up and finished it, finally going to bed some time after 9 or so. I'm also very into world-building, and that's another thing the books have in spades. Maybe I need to do a re-read.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2015 07:04
|
|
|
Neila Nuruodo posted:Did not expect to see so much hate for Rothfuss here, tbh. But then, I have a weird and inexplicable fondness of complex and difficult sentence structures, so maybe that's my problem right there. Personally, I lost sleep over The Wise Man's Fear. As in, I read until something like 5 in the morning, tried to go to sleep, and couldn't because the book had my mind racing. So I got up and finished it, finally going to bed some time after 9 or so. I'm also very into world-building, and that's another thing the books have in spades. Maybe I need to do a re-read. Liking something isn't a problem. The negative people in this thread are very vocal and hate the books to the point of it being comical. Don't do a re-read looking to hate it. That's a no win situation. I've only read the books twice, but it was fun the second time around. There's a lot of little things that pop out on the second go around. I would also recommend the tor reread. They pick over the books with a fine tooth comb without descending into A Song of Ice and Fire fan levels of insane speculation.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2015 14:30
|
|
|
No worries, I never look to hate a book. I do, however, take other people's impressions into account since I do some writing and am always looking to improve my own style. When writing, it helps me a lot to be aware of what I like but others don't (see complex sentence structure, etc.) so I don't overuse it and drive readers away. I may have to check out the tor reread. I have a tendency to read very fast and miss little details as a result. It makes rereading fun and worthwhile. To be honest, I loved Rothfuss's stuff enough that I would typically have reread it long before now, but the books were so intense I don't feel like I've forgotten much. Realistically, though, I've probably forgotten a lot (if only because there is just so much in the books) so I'll probably take a break from the book I'm ignoring now and give them another go. The people complaining about Kvothe as a character kinda crack me up, though. Obviously they have no experience with people who thought they were strong and then were broken by life. Live a little and come back to the books, my friends. You'll be surprised at the insight it gives you.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2015 20:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 07:36 |
|
|
I'm genuinely curious here: what about these books do you consider "intense"? Because from what I remember they're pretty much the exact opposite.
anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Jul 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2015 21:34
|
|