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frajaq posted:lol edit: Thank you for the information. I didn't mean to upset the hype train. second edit: I'm calling it now you! are a robot. Dr. Gene Dango MD fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Jul 18, 2015 |
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Jul 18, 2015 04:51
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Dr. Gene Dango MD posted:Are you implying because I misspelled that my opinion on the quality of their writing is wrong? Everyone misspells sometimes. I would take a thousand spelling errors in 4 if they could manage to build a convincing world instead of the paper thin set pieces of 3. Yeah that sounds most plausible really. With how they hyped up androids and stuff it explains why you survived for that long, or at all.
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Jul 18, 2015 05:01
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sector_corrector posted:"Thank god you're here. Use this loving power armor we've had the whole time but didn't use ourselves for some reason so that we can demonstrate the one part of the game we put effort into scenario design." chitoryu12 posted:That looks like there's just a feature to rotate your arm around and examine the PIP-Boy for fun. Probably an offshoot of Skyrim letting you spin around inventory items and look at them. 94% of players will wind up on GameFAQs begging for the code.
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Jul 18, 2015 05:37
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Most things point to it being a cryosleep thing.
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Jul 18, 2015 05:38
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FronzelNeekburm posted:The protagonist, as the only person alive who owned previous Fallout games (and has a Bethesda.Net account!), is now the sole person in the Commonwasteland with power armor training. Did you miss the Raider that was using Power Armor in the gameplay footage? Down with exclusive BoS technology! Power armor training for ALL in the wasteland, as God and freedom intended ! 
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Jul 18, 2015 05:40
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I am looking forward to having to sink a dozen perk points into becoming an omnipresent savant to play a man who makes timebombs. Because if there's one thing Bethesda does better than writing, it's balancing poo poo like alchemy>magic>enchanting>melee. Seriously, just drop the loving SPECIAL system if you're going to renovate, don't leave it there like a vestigial limb that impedes enjoyment because tradition says so. To the shithead a few posts down that posted:*snort*well that's what mods are for
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Jul 18, 2015 05:42
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frajaq posted:Did you miss the Raider that was using Power Armor in the gameplay footage? But not for long, sweet America. Not... for long. Those who oppose us will be... removed. Forever.
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Jul 18, 2015 05:45
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Dr. Gene Dango MD posted:A. Tags represent an innate ability to advance in something. I disagree with your statement that a perk adds anywhere near the sense of character one gets with a tag. All tagging did in 3 and NV was increment your skill a bit. It would be barely different in a perk based system than saying "I have the Guns 1, Lockpick 1 and Science 1 perks at first level." That said, it they do have perk tracks, it would be interesting if tagging still existed as a way of getting perks in a particular line faster. We're all hypothesizing that there are perks based around the old skills, so maybe if you tagged the Gun line, you'd get certain gun related perks for free as you leveled up. You tag Energy Weapons, level up, and get Energy Weapons 2 for free, so you can spend your perk from leveling on Laser Commander or Confirmed Bachelor. marshmallow creep fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Jul 18, 2015 |
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Jul 18, 2015 06:26
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I fine with skills being replaced with a perk tree, so long as I can choose at least 2 perks per level. I want to be able to take *good at guns* the perk and also *talks to rad scorpions* the perk.
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Jul 18, 2015 06:27
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Lotish posted:All tagging did in 3 and NV was increment your skill a bit. It would be barely different in a perk based system than saying "I have the Guns 1, Lockpick 1 and Science 1 perks at first level."
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Jul 18, 2015 06:35
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Dr. Gene Dango MD posted:You're right, I was thinking of Fallout 1 and 2 where they really mattered. Still they inform a little about your character, getting that boost at the start. I just feel like perks are perfect as they are. If they wanted to do something new with the mechanics great, I wish they had made something new instead of rehashing Skyrims constellations. I guess I don't really get how they inform differently. How is "Tag Science" any different than "begin with Science 1." They both just mean "you are better at Science."
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Jul 18, 2015 06:38
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they should have made it so that you can always try to manually pick any lock or hack any computer but the skill thresholds or talent ranks just give you auto success. example: if you have 48% lockpicking you can just automatically open things that are locked that are Very Easy or Easy, but you have to do the minigame for anything above that. get 2 more points in lock picking and you can now auto open Average or below! also the locks or computers scale the difficulty of opening relative to the delta between the required skill level and your current skill level, so someone with 12% lock picking has a hell of a time even trying to set the pins for a Very Hard lock or whatever
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Jul 18, 2015 06:53
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homeless poster posted:they should have made it so that you can always try to manually pick any lock or hack any computer but the skill thresholds or talent ranks just give you auto success. example: if you have 48% lockpicking you can just automatically open things that are locked that are Very Easy or Easy, but you have to do the minigame for anything above that. get 2 more points in lock picking and you can now auto open Average or below! also the locks or computers scale the difficulty of opening relative to the delta between the required skill level and your current skill level, so someone with 12% lock picking has a hell of a time even trying to set the pins for a Very Hard lock or whatever Would have preferred this, yes.
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Jul 18, 2015 07:02
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So basically they should have made lock picking and hacking useless because their mini games are always easy as gently caress?
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Jul 18, 2015 07:04
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7c Nickel posted:That could be argued to be a negative, not a positive. Dumping your hard work into something for absolutely no gain.
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Jul 18, 2015 07:05
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It's personal preference really. I like a 100 point scale because of the specificity it offers. I like the sense of gradually developing your character rather than suddenly gaining 1/4 of an experts scientific knowledge upon leveling. I like how Perks feel very interesting and special now, and I don't think they will continue to feel like that when they are serving as skills as well. I'm also a nerd and I prefer hard numbers to goofy flavor text. To answer your question specifically I think tagging (even in modern fallout) is (slightly) better at informing your character than perks because a tag is permanent and there are only three of them. A perk is (now) common and you can have as many as you can level. It's not that much of a commitment. A tag represented an inherent talent in the character for that skill. It's a small point and really not that big a deal (not that any of this is) and when I argued for them before I was forgetting that tagging hasn't been that big of a deal since 2. I think a perk based skill system will have advantages over the old. But I feel like the disadvantages outweigh anything gained. I don't know for sure though, I guess no one will until it comes out and even then it's completely subjective. Dr. Gene Dango MD fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Jul 18, 2015 |
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Jul 18, 2015 07:12
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There's no reason they can't have "fun" or "interesting" perks alongside Novice/Apprentice/Expert/Master Lockpicker or whatever.
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Jul 18, 2015 07:28
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I wish Todd would get off his golden throne and just make a video going over how skills work now so the we can know what we're actually arguing about, instead of going around and around in the same circles of what we consider to be fun and challenging.
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Jul 18, 2015 07:32
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Very true, I believe they will continue to have interesting perks. What I meant is the very idea of getting a perk will (for me at least) become standard and expected.
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Jul 18, 2015 07:36
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homeless poster posted:they should have made it so that you can always try to manually pick any lock or hack any computer but the skill thresholds or talent ranks just give you auto success. example: if you have 48% lockpicking you can just automatically open things that are locked that are Very Easy or Easy, but you have to do the minigame for anything above that. get 2 more points in lock picking and you can now auto open Average or below! also the locks or computers scale the difficulty of opening relative to the delta between the required skill level and your current skill level, so someone with 12% lock picking has a hell of a time even trying to set the pins for a Very Hard lock or whatever That effectively makes lockpicking worthless because rather than being an investment it becomes a punishment for being unable to do a minigame. Unless the minigame is absurdly difficult or impossibly designed it just means nobody will ever take the skill.
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Jul 18, 2015 07:36
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ImpAtom posted:That effectively makes lockpicking worthless because rather than being an investment it becomes a punishment for being unable to do a minigame. Unless the minigame is absurdly difficult or impossibly designed it just means nobody will ever take the skill. Very Easy locks are basically pointless busywork already. In New Vegas the right spot is always at the default starting location for the bobby pin, so you just turn the lock without needing to find the sweet spot at all. I'd rather the game just let you instantly open those doors with the right skill level.
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Jul 18, 2015 07:41
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Dr. Gene Dango MD posted:Very true, I believe they will continue to have interesting perks. What I meant is the very idea of getting a perk will (for me at least) become standard and expected. In Fallout 3 you get a perk every level so it already is..?
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Jul 18, 2015 07:48
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Pwnstar posted:In Fallout 3 you get a perk every level so it already is..?
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Jul 18, 2015 08:01
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Crabtree posted:I wish Todd would get off his golden throne and just make a video going over how skills work now so the we can know what we're actually arguing about, instead of going around and around in the same circles of what we consider to be fun and challenging. "Bethesda: Player Skill and the Future of Interactive Mediums" 0:00 - 0:14 - MTV's Rock Band (Video Game): A $400 "game" comprised of a colorful drum set, two guitars, a microphone--all packaged in a glossy refurbished dishwasher box. 0:14 - 0:25 - XBox One: A motion-sensing camera that is always on enhances a variety of approved games with "quiet captures" of your face as you play the game, within the game. There is a blurry headshot of an unaware, androgynous teen transposed on an NPC's face; the NPC is killed but the player seems oblivious and cow eyed. 0:25 - ??? - T. Howard narrates Fallout's "evolution of progress" to select Trapt songs. SPECIAL, Traits, Perks, Skill Points and, finally, Fallout 4's "multi-dimensional player experience": Out-of-game inventory management with Bethesda's iPhone/Android app mounted on a PipBoy wrist platform; a Hacking mini-game that resembles Habbo Hotel and runs in a separate browser window; a Lockpicking mini-game with a giant, USB-powered cutaway lock cylinder; a (sold separately) Speech simulator presented by something that looks like a glowing Rubix Cube but that T.Howard constantly refers to simply as "Speech Orb". Cream-of-Plenty fucked around with this message at 08:05 on Jul 18, 2015 |
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Jul 18, 2015 08:03
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chitoryu12 posted:Very Easy locks are basically pointless busywork already. In New Vegas the right spot is always at the default starting location for the bobby pin, so you just turn the lock without needing to find the sweet spot at all. I'd rather the game just let you instantly open those doors with the right skill level. i thought the lock system was shite compared to oblovious
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Jul 18, 2015 10:51
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OH BOY, my favourite! The whole "RPGs ARE RUINED" argument is back, it's time to argue how Skyrim is worse because it has no attributes... wait wrong game.Dr. Gene Dango MD posted:In my opinion it is superior because Tags are and were useless. There were only a couple of things that was worth tagging anyway, good luck if you went repair-science-traps. I know it sounds alien, but character customization can happen beyond character creation, your character can be unique just by not being able to select everything in the end. Downright RNG skillcheck is out for a longass time now in RPGs, time to move on. And it's not like everything will be binary, attributes will still take care of certain things. Perk rate will depend on the perks themselves, but getting more perks is hardly "less interesting" Every skill would have Bethesda written flavor text Perks also represent actual growth the same way skills does. You get a perk every level, you get X skill points every level, same poo poo. It's all about seeing big numbers rise and believing there is a meaning behind it.
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Jul 18, 2015 13:34
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I haven't played it in a while but I remember Skyrim handled locks "the best" so far, allowing you to attempt any lock regardless of difficulty. Perks scaled the lock difficulty down, but you were never barred from trying. I would have liked to see the "force lock" option an auto success based on the level of perks taken. I expect FO4 will work similarly to that, since Skyrim suggests a trend in improving that mechanic. What I'd like to see though, is a variety of different types of locks of varying complexity. Perks, rather than making the lock easier thus boring, highlight areas of the lock and display information somehow on cracking it. Like because you really know what you're doing, an area might be highlighted so you know to wiggle your tool in that direction  . The easier the lock and the higher your perks, the better the info, until it basically shows you a place to just ram in a bit of metal and it's open. Basically visual guides to represent your experience, and different methods of approaching the lock... unlocking  I would settle for the former though.
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Jul 18, 2015 14:17
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Bholder posted:OH BOY, my favourite! The whole "RPGs ARE RUINED" argument is back, it's time to argue how Skyrim is worse because it has no attributes... wait wrong game. A lot of the skill and perk mechanics were holdovers from the original SPECIAL system used in the first games that really didn't translate well into whatever modern system they were trying to create here. In the original games you could actually raise a skill to 300% if you wanted. Untagged skills could be raised by 1% with every skill point when you leveled up, while tagged skills were raised by 2% for every skill point. But, after getting to 99% in a skill, each additional 1% would cost 2 skill points for an untagged skill, and 1 skill point for tagged skills. The costs would keep rising after that so would be extremely costly to get any skill to the max. You also only got a perk after every 3 levels (4 if you selected the Skilled trait) to make you think about how you wanted to build your character. The skills were also much more important because every action you took was an actual dice roll; there was no manual aiming, no locking picking and hacking minigames or crap like that. It was 100% pure RNG. It seems like in FO4 they're really trying to move away from that, as Todd alluded to in his demonstration when he mentioned being able to manually aim if you wished and being able to shoot worth a drat if you tried. I suspect we'll be learning more about something in next Friday's presentation. But it's QuakeCon so I wouldn't be surprised if if focuses more on combat than RPG aspects. But I really don't want to learn everything there is to learn about the game before it comes out and I'm sure Bethesda doesn't want to spoil the game months before it hits the shelves, either.
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Jul 18, 2015 14:18
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Was there even a point to raise a skill beyond 100% other than combat skills so you can always hit the enemy in the eye with 95%.
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Jul 18, 2015 14:27
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Cheap Shot posted:I haven't played it in a while but I remember Skyrim handled locks "the best" so far, allowing you to attempt any lock regardless of difficulty. Perks scaled the lock difficulty down, but you were never barred from trying. I don't know if this is entirely ideal. I never once invested in lockpicking perks in Skyrim, because I could do the minigame easily enough without them. No one will take locking picking perks that just make things easier, when there is a crafting perk which gates off some cool weapons instead.
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Jul 18, 2015 15:03
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ImpAtom posted:That effectively makes lockpicking worthless because rather than being an investment it becomes a punishment for being unable to do a minigame. Unless the minigame is absurdly difficult or impossibly designed it just means nobody will ever take the skill. 1. there are a lot of people who, like me, are lazy, and would put points in the skill just for the convenience of being to open poo poo no questions asked 2. in a game (FO3 / NV) where it is trivially easy to max out every single skill within 30/50 levels, there's almost no chance that you wouldn't end up maxing lock pick and science at some point. unless you were doing some kind of self imposed challenge run where you purposely didn't use those skills i heard a similar argument from sawyer on these very boards when NV was new-ish when someone asked why you couldn't use explosives to open locked doors / boxes or just muscle them open with a high STR and a solid weapon; his response was something like well if you could do that NO ONE WOULD EVER TAKE LOCK PICKING! hmmmm yes there's literally no way that a game designer could otherwise enforce negative consequences to blowing open / forcing open containers. no way at all. it isn't like you could make explosions extremely loud and alert all hostiles in the area to come figure out what the gently caress, and it isn't like explosives wouldn't damage a ton of whatever was inside the box you were trying to open. there's no way that you could make the lock picking approach completely silent or allow it to otherwise bypass alarms. nope, being able to force locks with bombs or a sword is just too unbalanced to ever be considered. it definitely makes much more sense that the flimsiest wooden door in the world should be able to withstand direct hits from a rocket launcher
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Jul 18, 2015 15:20
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homeless poster posted:i heard a similar argument from sawyer on these very boards when NV was new-ish when someone asked why you couldn't use explosives to open locked doors / boxes or just muscle them open with a high STR and a solid weapon; his response was something like well if you could do that NO ONE WOULD EVER TAKE LOCK PICKING! hmmmm yes there's literally no way that a game designer could otherwise enforce negative consequences to blowing open / forcing open containers. no way at all. it isn't like you could make explosions extremely loud and alert all hostiles in the area to come figure out what the gently caress, and it isn't like explosives wouldn't damage a ton of whatever was inside the box you were trying to open. there's no way that you could make the lock picking approach completely silent or allow it to otherwise bypass alarms. nope, being able to force locks with bombs or a sword is just too unbalanced to ever be considered. it definitely makes much more sense that the flimsiest wooden door in the world should be able to withstand direct hits from a rocket launcher Plus it's actually a thing you can do in Project Nevada, and the penalty is that it might blow up the lock making it unopenable.
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Jul 18, 2015 15:28
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I'm not going to nitpick a bunch of stuff but I am disappointed that they are turning Fallout into a standard FPS. I get that Bioshock and Mass Effect are what's popular though. I'm sure in 10 years a spiritual successor to New Vegas will be on kickstarter for people who enjoy reading dialogue and game play systems that reinforce their weird roleplaying ideas even if they aren't perfectly functional and who don't care about shooting mechanics and presentation.
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Jul 18, 2015 15:38
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One of the most popular mods for New Vegas is one that makes the game play more like an FPS. You're in the minority, at least from my point of view. Also, Mass Effect and Bioshock really aren't comparable, given that Mass Effect actually allows you to make choices regarding the story.
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Jul 18, 2015 15:49
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RabidBalm posted:I'm not going to nitpick a bunch of stuff but I am disappointed that they are turning Fallout into a standard FPS. I get that Bioshock and Mass Effect are what's popular though. I'm sure in 10 years a spiritual successor to New Vegas will be on kickstarter for people who enjoy reading dialogue and game play systems that reinforce their weird roleplaying ideas even if they aren't perfectly functional and who don't care about shooting mechanics and presentation. I don't think you know what a standard FPS means 
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Jul 18, 2015 15:52
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cargohills posted:One of the most popular mods for New Vegas is one that makes the game play more like an FPS. You're in the minority, at least from my point of view. What's this out of curiosity?
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Jul 18, 2015 15:57
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I know that I'm in the minority.frajaq posted:I don't think you know what a standard FPS means I personally don't find much of a difference between Bioshock and a game like Call of Duty. Didn't mean to be genre insensitive.
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Jul 18, 2015 15:57
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cargohills posted:One of the most popular mods for New Vegas is one that makes the game play more like an FPS. You're in the minority, at least from my point of view. I love the RPG elements and hope they stay but I really really hope that FO4 has good gunplay instead of lovely tacked on gunplay that feels terrible the whole game. I'll still put a stupid amount of hours into it either way, I just would love a Fallout with the controls of say Destiny but absolutely nothing else like it.
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Jul 18, 2015 16:01
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cargohills posted:One of the most popular mods for New Vegas is one that makes the game play more like an FPS. You're in the minority, at least from my point of view. Well I made that comparison because from what I've seen of Fallout 4 it comes off as a mix of those two games.
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Jul 18, 2015 16:04
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RabidBalm posted:I'm not going to nitpick a bunch of stuff but I am disappointed that they are turning Fallout into a standard FPS. I get that Bioshock and Mass Effect are what's popular though. I'm sure in 10 years a spiritual successor to New Vegas will be on kickstarter for people who enjoy reading dialogue and game play systems that reinforce their weird roleplaying ideas even if they aren't perfectly functional and who don't care about shooting mechanics and presentation. What is funny is that you think the "original" Fallout 3 and NV weren't widely considered as dumbing Fallout down to a regular FPS.
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Jul 18, 2015 16:05
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