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The Princess Bride approach would improve a lot of books. I'm thinking start with Stephenson.
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Jul 8, 2015 17:17
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oTHi posted:Urgh. Safehold was just so boring though. I liked some of the concepts, but the execution was very dry. part and parcel of Weber, to be honest. WarLocke's take on it is pretty fair, though I think Weber did an admirable job (y'know, for Weber) in holding himself back from full-on infodump insanity for at least a few books. Off Armageddon Reef is probably the tightest book Weber has written since the 90s, a subject I've complained about a lot. The rest ... are steadily getting worse in that particular regard. an easy way to napkin-math it is to take the total page count, see how many months each book covers, and divide pages/month. I believe the trend is each book is longer in absolute pages, shorter in duration described, and that trend has held almost consistently from every book after the first.
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Jul 8, 2015 17:17
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The thing I hated about H.H. is he took "inspiration" from the Horatio Hornblower books, but missed the characterization of Hornblower completely.Especially in how everything went perfectly for H.H even in the first book which was "She was awesome and was way better than anyone, but no one recognizes it yet". IN the actual series sometimes Hornblower does usually try to do the right thing ,but it actually has negative repercussions for him either because he was acting on incomplete information, or factors outside of his control and he is forced to adjust. Unlike Harrington he also actually makes mistakes and gets people killed.
Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 19:32
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I think the thing with the Safehold books being so huge is that he's trying to avoid the trap he fell into with Harrington, where you build up the bad guy, the good guys win... And then where do you go from there? Have to hastily introduce a new bad guy which feels shoehorned in. Safehold (the planet/setting) is actually pretty intricate, and a lot of the extra page count is in giving the reader insights into peripheral countries that may not be the most relevant now, but I think Weber wants them set up for later on down the line.
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Jul 8, 2015 19:35
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WarLocke posted:I think the thing with the Safehold books being so huge is that he's trying to avoid the trap he fell into with Harrington, where you build up the bad guy, the good guys win... And then where do you go from there? Have to hastily introduce a new bad guy which feels shoehorned in. My problem with the whole Safehold thing was that the most interesting part to it was the prologue with the defeated remnants of humanity on the run from the conquering aliens. I'd much rather read about those guys stories than another "external force brings modern tech to a less technologically advanced society." If I want that story, I'll just read the Belisarius books again. 
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Jul 8, 2015 20:37
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jng2058 posted:My problem with the whole Safehold thing was that the most interesting part to it was the prologue with the defeated remnants of humanity on the run from the conquering aliens. I'd much rather read about those guys stories than another "external force brings modern tech to a less technologically advanced society." If I want that story, I'll just read the Belisarius books again. Yeah, when I started the Safehold-books, I somehow expected after a couple books of boosting technological advancement, it would get back into space again with fighting the aliens. Instead the plot got slower and slower and I lost interest around the time the only potential main-land ally of the "protagonist"-nation rends itself apart in a messy civil war.
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Jul 8, 2015 21:04
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Jack2142 posted:The thing I hated about H.H. is he took "inspiration" from the Horatio Hornblower books, but missed the characterization of Hornblower completely.Especially in how everything went perfectly for H.H even in the first book which was "She was awesome and was way better than anyone, but no one recognizes it yet". IN the actual series sometimes Hornblower does usually try to do the right thing ,but it actually has negative repercussions for him either because he was acting on incomplete information, or factors outside of his control and he is forced to adjust. Unlike Harrington he also actually makes mistakes and gets people killed. Does Hornblower has the same weird British empire fetishes going on? Because that is really one of the most off putting aspects of the series.
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Jul 8, 2015 23:35
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e X posted:Does Hornblower has the same weird British empire fetishes going on? Because that is really one of the most off putting aspects of the series. Hornblower does both. On one hand, Horatio loves the Empire and does his damnedest to protect it. On the other hand, his fellow officers are often venal, petty, and dangerously incompetent. So, you konw, its a mix of good and bad? As opposed to Weber's "The Star Kingdom of Manticore is all that is right and proper in the universe B'GAHD!" which, yeah, that's pretty over the top.
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Jul 8, 2015 23:46
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KSR's Aurora is out.
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Jul 9, 2015 00:39
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Baloogan posted:I kinda prefer lovely incompetent people in my sci fi  jng2058 posted:Hornblower does both. On one hand, Horatio loves the Empire and does his damnedest to protect it. On the other hand, his fellow officers are often venal, petty, and dangerously incompetent. So, you konw, its a mix of good and bad? As opposed to Weber's "The Star Kingdom of Manticore is all that is right and proper in the universe B'GAHD!" which, yeah, that's pretty over the top.
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Jul 9, 2015 01:13
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coyo7e posted:As long as we're not talking about Jack Campbell-levels of incompetence and shittiness..! Sort of he is of a similar background however its never really brought up beyond the first book when he is a midshipman. He is similar in broad aspects to Honor, however more introspective which I think works better and highlights the difference which the world thinks of him and how he sees himself. He is also acutely aware of how lucky he really is to have pulled off everything he has accomplished, which was essentially rise from nothing to the nobility. I would recommend finishing the series, it is one of my favorites.
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Jul 9, 2015 02:04
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coyo7e posted:As long as we're not talking about Jack Campbell-levels of incompetence and shittiness..! That loving conference room. How many pages does he spend repeating the same drat thing? Why couldn't he have spent any time describing the space ships! I think all we get is "shark-like"? Strangely enough, those were the last four books written in the 50's. The first book, Beat to Quarters/The Happy Return was published in 1938, and comes chronologically after Hornblower and the Atropos (book 4). Hornblower doesn't have the same power creep as Harrington, that's for sure.
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Jul 9, 2015 06:22
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The thing about Hornblower, and the Hornblower books in general, is that they don't shy away from some of the lovely parts of the British Empire. Hornblower constantly faces inequities in the way he's treated simply because of his low birth, and the way the Royal Navy conducted itself with favoritism and cruelty is pretty well covered, especially before Hornblower gets his own command and has to suffer under incompetent or downright evil commanding officers. Yes, Hornblower himself is fanatically loyal to the crown, but the crown isn't the head of a perfect royal utopia. By comparison, Weber not only has Honor be fanatically loyal to the Star Kingdom of Manticore, he writes it so that that the place is objectively the best place in the Honorverse. Like Honor herself, the Star Kingdom has nearly no flaws...outside a few highly placed scoundrels who inevitably receive their righteous comeuppance for daring to disagree with the Queen or Honor.  The Star Kingdom of Manticore is the Mary Sue of space empires, in other words.
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Jul 9, 2015 07:40
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coyo7e posted:As long as we're not talking about Jack Campbell-levels of incompetence and shittiness..! While campbell is the worst character writer, I am enjoying his books beyond the frontier+ and his take on aliens.
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Jul 9, 2015 10:53
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So I decided to give the Culture books a go based on this thread, starting with Player of Games since it's the book before Use of Weapons, the two books from the series that people rave about. Came away... thoroughly underwhelmed? The prose was decent enough, but the characters and plot were pretty lackluster. Does Use of Weapons have a similar style? Is it better?
Arcanen fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Jul 9, 2015 |
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Jul 9, 2015 13:42
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The style and structure in Use of Weapons is a lot different. I don't know if people rave about Player as such, but it helps you appreciate Use more if you've read Player first as an intro to the universe. If the plot and story were your issue with Player, then Use is definitely going to be different in that regard.
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Jul 9, 2015 13:58
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Shakugan posted:So I decided to give the Culture books a go based on this thread, starting with Player of Games since it's the book before Use of Weapons, the two books that from the series that people rave about. Came away... thoroughly underwhelmed? The prose was decent enough, but the characters and plot were pretty lackluster. Does Use of Weapons have a similar style? Is it better? Read it. Now.
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Jul 9, 2015 14:04
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Finished/liked Red Rising and Golden Son, as per recommendations in either this or the other thread. It felt like a mature blend of Hunger Games, Ender's Game, Gattaca and Spartacus. Waiting for the last book to be released now. Any other fairly recent, non-lovely, mature books with a similar concept/vibe?
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Jul 9, 2015 18:58
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Got a hankering for fun, upbeat space opera with a proper sense of wonder to it. So, like Ryk Spoor's Grand Central Arena series except, y'know, better written. Any recs?
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Jul 13, 2015 14:55
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I know this thread is full of Banks circle jerking but I've been going through the Culture series (starting from Hydrogen Sonata because I'm dumb) and holy poo poo this is some good literature. Use of Weapons is fantastic, and I had the pleasure of reading the extremely gross and hosed up ending while getting hit with a severe case of food poisoning. Blergh! I just finished Excession however and I'm surprised seeing so much praise for it in this thread - it felt it just took way too long to get started and I definitely got lost in all the Mind discussions. Probably my least favorite Culture book. So a question: is it worth it to read more Stephen Baxter? I've read Manifold: Time, Flood, and Ark, and loved all of those. I also read Ring and Manifold: Space, and thought they were just poo poo. Too much weird crap going on, where it started to feel like the paper-thin characters are just conveniently ending up in one bizarre set piece after another. Neanderthals on the moons of Saturn? Immortal space monks and jungle tribes on a spaceship? Literal space ghosts? Christ. Are any of the other Xeelee related books worth exploring?
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Jul 14, 2015 23:50
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Slow Bullets was just bad. I enjoyed Poseidon's Wake and Aurora is starting off good.
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Jul 15, 2015 04:57
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I finished Baxter's Proxima last week. It was my first Baxter book aside from his collaboration with Pratchett. I like it well enough, but it wasn't anything special. It was entertaining and light, exactly what I needed after reading through heavy literature all semester, and it's good enough I'll probably get the sequel but ultimately kind of forgettable. It's nowhere near Banks of course. Maybe Alastair Reynolds is more your thing?
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Jul 15, 2015 11:13
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JOHN SKELETON posted:I know this thread is full of Banks circle jerking but I've been going through the Culture series (starting from Hydrogen Sonata because I'm dumb) and holy poo poo this is some good literature. Use of Weapons is fantastic, and I had the pleasure of reading the extremely gross and hosed up ending while getting hit with a severe case of food poisoning. Blergh! I really liked Hydrogen Sonata I think it is a fitting final book written by Banks about what happens at the end of the life of a civilization and tackles mortality as an interesting way by approaching it on a grand scale. Down to people squabbling over inheritance, following those who went before, leaving people behind etc. I read it around the same time my grandma died so it resonated really well with me.
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Jul 16, 2015 05:22
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JOHN SKELETON posted:So a question: is it worth it to read more Stephen Baxter?...Are any of the other Xeelee related books worth exploring? Read Vacuum Diagrams at least. I liked it better than the Xeelee Omnibus overall. I don't think you'd like Raft or Flux (I didn't) if you didn't like Ring; I thought Timelike Infinity and Ring were the standouts in the omnibus. But thanks for reminding me, I think I'm going to start Destiny's Children now 
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Jul 16, 2015 05:50
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RVProfootballer posted:But thanks for reminding me, I think I'm going to start Destiny's Children now Honestly, I enjoy Destiny's Children as a whole much better than the Xeelee Omnibus. It's cool to read the Xeelee Omnibus to see where D's C fits in to things, but ultimately for me, the D's C series for me was much more about the _people_, whereas the Xeelee Omnibus is all about the Big Ideas / Cool Settings, namean?
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Jul 18, 2015 03:09
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In terms of the Xeelee Sequence, I thought Raft was a cool idea, and I second Vacuum Diagrams. But then again I like pretty much all of Baxter. I think his NASA Trilogy books are probably his best, though. But really it's not surprising his books are all more focused on being "all about the Big Ideas / Cool Settings" given how big an influence Arthur C. Clarke was on him. Are his Long Earth books any good? I feel like his style combined with Pratchett's could either provide a really interesting end result or just be a big mishmash. On a different topic, I just finished Neptune's Brood and just started Lockstep... are there any other space opera/interstellar civilization books where FTL doesn't exist? The only other ones I can think of are some of Niven's early (in-universe at least) Known Space/Man-Kzin War works.
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Jul 18, 2015 19:07
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I read the first three Long Earth novels and they're pretty good if you go in expecting a young adult story with some interesting ideas. They're entertaining and I'm definitely picking up the next one.
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Jul 18, 2015 19:25
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Chairman Capone posted:On a different topic, I just finished Neptune's Brood and just started Lockstep... are there any other space opera/interstellar civilization books where FTL doesn't exist? The only other ones I can think of are some of Niven's early (in-universe at least) Known Space/Man-Kzin War works. Vinge's Deepness in the Sky is non-FTL, as is Reynolds' House of Suns, to name but two of the most-plugged books both here and in the sci-fi thread 
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Jul 19, 2015 00:08
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Koesj posted:Vinge's Deepness in the Sky is non-FTL, as is Reynolds' House of Suns, to name but two of the most-plugged books both here and in the sci-fi thread Reynolds' Revelation Space universe also has no FTL, and is widely liked (though most people think House of Suns is his best book).
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Jul 19, 2015 16:06
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Chairman Capone posted:
LeGuin's "Hainish Cycle" books maybe, depending on how you shave your definitions. They have light-speed travel with time dilation, and ansible FTL communication gets developed a few books in. There are a few series that don't have FTL and stay within the solar system, too, like the Expanse series, or John C. Wright's Golden Age books.
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Jul 19, 2015 17:06
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Libluini posted:Yeah, I've read all those books, too. Uh, what? The Mesan Alignment is certainly not going to get defeated in the next book, the Mesa system might get occupied (or it might end up being a trap, but I think the Alignment would rather Manticore thinks the Mesans are defeated and let their guard down), but as the last few books have established the Mesa system is only the public face of the Mesan Alignment. It's actually a fairly unimportant part of it, and most of the key people have already left or are soon leaving the planet. The Alignment still has their secret industrial planet that no one else knows of, their own Podnaught fleet, and are secretly ruling several important Solarian systems. At some after the Solarians suffer a few more defeats they are going to declare independence and form their own empire, which is probably going to be the "end boss" of the series. In other news, I just finished the On silver wings/Warrior's wings series by Evan Currie and I really liked it. Can anyone recommend similar stuff?
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Jul 22, 2015 16:22
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Darkrenown posted:Uh, what? You're a better man than I am. I've read too many books by David Weber to still be so optimistic. I'm betting on the worst possible outcome. The chances are high Weber won't be disappointing me.
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Jul 22, 2015 18:06
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Libluini posted:You're a better man than I am. I've read too many books by David Weber to still be so optimistic. I'm betting on the worst possible outcome. The chances are high Weber won't be disappointing me. You know, I'd have a lot more respect for....and optimism about...where Weber was going with the series if he'd stuck to the original plan of killing Honor in At All Costs, advancing the timeline, and letting Honor's kids be the ones dealing with the Mesans. As it is, the series feels like it's stuck in the mud and just spinning wheels. Lots of noise and poo poo flying everywhere, but no real forward motion.
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Jul 22, 2015 19:33
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Libluini posted:You're a better man than I am. I've read too many books by David Weber to still be so optimistic. I'm betting on the worst possible outcome. The chances are high Weber won't be disappointing me. isn't the worst possible outcome stringing the plot out another 7 books? I feel like it's optimistic to think it'll end in one. 
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Jul 22, 2015 19:42
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Psion posted:isn't the worst possible outcome stringing the plot out another 7 books? I feel like it's optimistic to think it'll end in one. I see they're republishing the first two Hells Gate books which if I recall, it was about 10 years since the last one, are unfinished storywise. Time for Weber to pick up another series which he will never finish. 
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Jul 23, 2015 00:32
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Deptfordx posted:I see they're republishing the first two Hells Gate books which if I recall, it was about 10 years since the last one, are unfinished storywise. Time for Weber to pick up another series which he will never finish. I liked those books too. Why can't Weber finish what he starts? 
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Jul 23, 2015 01:02
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Deptfordx posted:I see they're republishing the first two Hells Gate books which if I recall, it was about 10 years since the last one, are unfinished storywise. Time for Weber to pick up another series which he will never finish. poo poo, the story barely started in those things. The first book was a 700 page guidebook to how magic trains work versus steam trains and how this impacts long-haul freight logistics. Those books are loving dire. I mean yeah unless you're WarLocke but for anyone else: loving dire.
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Jul 23, 2015 02:30
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Psion posted:how magic trains work versus steam trains and how this impacts long-haul freight logistics. Wow, now that is some spergin.
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Jul 23, 2015 02:36
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Psion posted:poo poo, the story barely started in those things. The first book was a 700 page guidebook to how magic trains work versus steam trains and how this impacts long-haul freight logistics. Those books are loving dire. quote:The Union of Arcana has expanded through the portals linking parallel universes for over a century and a half. In that time, its soldiers and sorcerers have laid claim to one uninhabited planet after another—all of them Earth, and in the process, the Union has become the most powerful, most wealthy civilization in all of human history. But all of that is about to come to a screeching halt, for the Union’s scouts have just discovered a new portal, and on its far side lies a shattering revelation. Arcana is not alone, after all. There is another human society, Sharona, which has also been exploring the Multiverse, and the first contact between them did not go well. Arcana is horrified by the alien weapons of its sudden opponents, weapons its sorcerers cannot explain or duplicate. Weapons based upon something called . . . science. But Sharona is equally horrified by Arcana’s “magical” weapons. Neither side expected the confrontation. Both sides think the other fired first, and no one on either side understands the “technology” of the other. But as the initial disastrous contact snowballs into all-out warfare, both sides can agree on one thing. The portal which brought them together is Hell’s Gate itself! 
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Jul 23, 2015 03:27
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Psion posted:poo poo, the story barely started in those things. The first book was a 700 page guidebook to how magic trains work versus steam trains and how this impacts long-haul freight logistics. Those books are loving dire. It's been so long I honestly can't remember what I thought of them, they obviously didn't make much of an impression and that was when I still super-eager to read new Weber stuff. Man that ship has sailed.
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Jul 23, 2015 11:25
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