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Like I said, Spheres are originally from Dragonlance Adventures, which is a 1e book. It's far from what you'd call core though and is not worth worrying about.
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Jul 18, 2015 02:36
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Using the specialty priests is a lot more fun that the original "Im a cleric of 'the divine'" or "Im a cleric of 'of good'". Priests of war use swords, priests of hunting use bows. Other common sense 'by-god' differentiations. Priests of fire dont cast Ice Storm. <zizek>And so on and so forth</zizek>
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Jul 18, 2015 03:07
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Lightning Lord posted:Like I said, Spheres are originally from Dragonlance Adventures, which is a 1e book. It's far from what you'd call core though and is not worth worrying about. I managed to completely miss your previous post and then repeat what you said. Sorry. I'm sick right now and not thinking right. FRINGE posted:Using the specialty priests is a lot more fun that the original "Im a cleric of 'the divine'" or "Im a cleric of 'of good'". Pretty sure the 2e Priest's Handbook straight up says this exact thing. It's right, too.
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Jul 18, 2015 06:19
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My friend had the AD&D 2e revised rulebooks, this was at a time when the only D&D I'd played was 3e, and through hearsay I'd heard lots of exaggerated rumors about silly rules in older editions of D&D. Chief among them was the fact that Clerics could only use blunt weapons. Imagine my surprise when I read the 2e PHB and realized that there was literally a note saying that Clerics dedicated to different gods might have different weapon proficiencies. Having said that, while I know that spheres and specialty priests only became a part of the core rules in 2e, didn't the idea first appear in an article in Dragon Magazine, written by Gary Gygax himself? I need to check.
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Jul 18, 2015 10:04
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Ratpick posted:My friend had the AD&D 2e revised rulebooks, this was at a time when the only D&D I'd played was 3e, and through hearsay I'd heard lots of exaggerated rumors about silly rules in older editions of D&D. Chief among them was the fact that Clerics could only use blunt weapons. Imagine my surprise when I read the 2e PHB and realized that there was literally a note saying that Clerics dedicated to different gods might have different weapon proficiencies. If I remember correctly, a cleric wasn't supposed to 'shed blood', hence the sword restriction. Of course, bashing someone's brains in with a mace being spiritually okay is a very legalistic way of interpreting the prohibition against shedding blood.
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Jul 18, 2015 14:43
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Ratpick posted:through hearsay I'd heard lots of exaggerated rumors about silly rules in older editions of D&D A Strange Aeon posted:a very legalistic way of interpreting the prohibition against shedding blood. "Well you see if we accept the premise that ..."
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Jul 18, 2015 15:49
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A Strange Aeon posted:If I remember correctly, a cleric wasn't supposed to 'shed blood', hence the sword restriction. Of course, bashing someone's brains in with a mace being spiritually okay is a very legalistic way of interpreting the prohibition against shedding blood. Clerics not being allowed to use blades was also a legacy rule from OD&D that was set up specifically for game balance. In OD&D, magic swords were a Big Deal. The most powerful swords were intelliegent and had spell-like powers, like the ability to cast Charm 3/day. Being able to wield a magic sword was considered to be one of the incentives for playing a Fighter, and allowing a spell casting class like the Cleric to wield swords would have been overpowering, so the weapon restriction was put in place to prevent that. (It was apparently also inspired by a historical priest whose name escapes me)
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Jul 18, 2015 17:26
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Simian_Prime posted:Clerics not being allowed to use blades was also a legacy rule from OD&D that was set up specifically for game balance. In OD&D, magic swords were a Big Deal. The most powerful swords were intelliegent and had spell-like powers, like the ability to cast Charm 3/day. Being able to wield a magic sword was considered to be one of the incentives for playing a Fighter, and allowing a spell casting class like the Cleric to wield swords would have been overpowering, so the weapon restriction was put in place to prevent that. Bishop Odo, the half-brother of William the Conqueror. Apparently the story is a Victorian fabrication, but supposedly Odo went into the Battle of Hastings wielding a mace (as is depicted on the Bayuex Tapestry) to avoid spilling blood. That's where Gygax and Arneson got the idea. e: The other parts of the Cleric are part Van Helsing (I mean, the reason why they introduced the Cleric as a class was because one of Gary's player wanted an anti-vampire guy who could stand a chance against one of the other players' character, Lord Fang, a vampire), part Knights Templar, with a bit of Biblical miracles as spells thrown in (I mean, the Cleric can turn sticks into snakes, part water, and heal the sick, for starters). Ratpick fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Jul 18, 2015 |
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Jul 18, 2015 18:18
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Ratpick posted:Bishop Odo, the half-brother of William the Conqueror. Apparently the story is a Victorian fabrication, but supposedly Odo went into the Battle of Hastings wielding a mace (as is depicted on the Bayuex Tapestry) to avoid spilling blood. 
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Jul 18, 2015 18:24
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Man, this thread is great for learning weird trivia! The game balance reasoning makes a lot of sense, though I feel like magic swords never bled into any of my home campaigns. It's clear from all the Appendix N stuff that magic swords would be a big deal, too, though the only one springing to mind is Elric's, as far as intelligent swords go.
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Jul 19, 2015 01:06
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A Strange Aeon posted:though the only one springing to mind is Elric's, as far as intelligent swords go. There were a bunch floating around the later FR setting too.
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Jul 19, 2015 01:16
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White Plume Mountain, Blackrazor is the non-union version of Strombringer. In 0E D&D all swords are intelligent according to Monsters and treasures, and in fact the random generation of magic swords takes up 4 entire pages out of 40. "SWORDS: Among magic weaponry swords alone possess certain human (and superhuman) attributes, Swords have an alignment (Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic), an Intelligence factor, and an egoism rating (as well as an optional determination of their origin/purpose)." remusclaw fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 01:45
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remusclaw posted:White Plume Mountain, Blackrazor is the non-union version of Strombringer. It's a cool idea, I've just never played in a game that did much with item personalities. It seems like an npc the players can just shove in a bag or ignore, and coming up with good npc motivation is hard enough without having to imagine what a sword with no actual agency wants. There was a really memorable Knights of the Dinner Table arc with an evil sword called Carvin' Marvin, though that strip never seems like it would translate well to the table. Are there other examples of intelligent swords in the fiction that inspired Gygax, or did he just run wild with Stormbringer?
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Jul 19, 2015 04:43
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A Strange Aeon posted:Are there other examples of intelligent swords in the fiction that inspired Gygax, or did he just run wild with Stormbringer? http://greyhawkery.blogspot.com/2015/04/sword-of-kas-through-editions.html quote:1st Edition Dungeon Masters Guide: Gary Gygax's version of the Sword of Kas starts it all off. The artifact is intelligent and has an overriding desire to kill Vecna and his cult. This is common across all the editions so let's call this "a given" from here on. In this book, the blade is a +6 Defender short sword with an 15 Intelligence and 19 Ego, doing double damage against non-Prime Material Plane beings. This is significant because no item in D&D lore is +6 anything until this point. The sword is also merely a short blade which is a major point of difference in the future. AD&D always allowed DM's to fashion artifacts to their own need, allowing them to choose from a list of powers and drawbacks. For simplicity, the Sword of Kas has 5 benign powers, 2 major powers, 1 minor malevolent power, 2 major malevolent powers, 2 prime powers and 1 side effect. These extras would be expanded upon more definitively in later publications. Also the demigod of swords had ... intelligent swords. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelanen (Greyhawk dieties. Fungus, spiders, swords, oppression, and wizards. Also Tamoachan.)
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Jul 19, 2015 09:06
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If memory serves, the titular sword from Lord Edward John Moreton Drax Plunkett, the 18th Baron of Dunsany's story The Fortress Unvanquishable, Save for Sacnoth was intelligent. I don't think it talked per se but it was certainly a presence in the story. Other items like this include for example the One Ring, which had a personality and force of will. In fact, it doesn't have to be so worldshaking but the Ring is a good model for how to run an item that has wants and needs in a way that doesn't make it an NPC that goes in a bag. Also speaking of Tolkien, The Silmarillion was published after D&D first came out but Turin had a talking sword - when he wanted to kill himself, he asked the sword if it would give him a swift death and it said yes. Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 10:03 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 09:28
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Did 2e and 3.5e ever have random dungeon generation tables? I've found the ones for every edition except those ones. Thank you for the Cleric sphere answers BTW
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Jul 19, 2015 09:57
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Lots of weapons with "purpose" or something like drive/desire. (Even Olde Excalibur depending verily upon thine deign to looke ait ite and yonder anon forsooth.) And: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethra ... and: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kullervo#Evaluation (I just learned that this may apparently be the birth of "The Black Sword" archetype..?) Lots of Norse and Japanese stories have blades with something like "personality". Not too many talking ones I can think of though. (For that matter Stormbringer/Mournblade werent chatty either.) After Gygax there were a bunch. The Serioli Great Weapons in Brusts books come to mind. The Belgariad had the whatever-sword (with the magic rock in it). There were also the swords in .. uh ... those books about swords I cant remember. (edit: Oh hey how about that. "The Book of Swords" by Saberhagen. Never read them I just thought they were about swords for some reason.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Swords_of_Power)
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Jul 19, 2015 09:59
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gradenko_2000 posted:Did 2e and 3.5e ever have random dungeon generation tables? I've found the ones for every edition except those ones. 3.5's were idk, second party? They're in the Dragon Compendium by Paizo, so sort of first party.
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Jul 19, 2015 10:08
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gradenko_2000 posted:Did 2e ... have random dungeon generation tables? There was the softbound series that had to do with structures (Castle Guide, Catacomb Guide, etc) http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Dungeons-Dragons-Edition-Supplement/dp/0880388374/ http://www.amazon.com/Campaign-Sourcebook-Catacomb-Supplement-Advanced/dp/088038817X/ ... and I think the Undermountain stuff had some ways to generate random rooms? There was this thing but I never read it: http://www.amazon.com/Dungeon-Builders-Guidebook-AD-Accessory/dp/0786912073 The 1e DMG had one. Maybe they cut it for space in the 2e DMG?
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Jul 19, 2015 10:19
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FRINGE posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kullervo#Evaluation (I just learned that this may apparently be the birth of "The Black Sword" archetype..?) Suomi mainittu, torilla tavataan! It wouldn't be that surprising for the Kullervo cycle to be the origin of intelligent swords in fantasy literature: as mentioned, J.R.R. Tolkien had a very similar scene in The Children of Hϊrin, and as we all know Tolkien was a huge Fennophile going as far as basing the grammar of Quenya on Finnish. Also, the Kullervo cycle is pretty much the most Finnish myth ever. A guy with an abusive father goes on a series of misadventures which lead him to kill a bunch of people as well as turning a bunch of cows into bears with magic (as one does) and eventually he commits suicide with a sword granted to him by the god of thunder. Not exactly related to intelligent swords, but medieval romances are filled with magical swords. According to the romances surrounding Charlemagne and his paladins, the swords Joyeuse (Charlemagne's sword), Curtana (Ogier the Dane's sword) and Roland's Durendal were all made by the legendary smith Weyland (Vφluntr in Old Norse sagas), which just goes to show that the early writers of romances weren't very particular about mixing old Germanic myths into stories of Christian kings, but even then they added some stuff in to tie the stories into Christian folklore (for an example, Joyeuse supposedly includes a piece of the Lance of Longinus). Incidentally, Joyeuse (or a sword claimed to be Joyeuse) was used until the French revolution in the coronation of French monarchs, and similarly Curtana (or at least a sword called Curtana) is used to this day in the coronation of British monarchs, which is kind of cool.
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Jul 19, 2015 11:34
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A Strange Aeon posted:It's a cool idea, I've just never played in a game that did much with item personalities. It seems like an npc the players can just shove in a bag or ignore, and coming up with good npc motivation is hard enough without having to imagine what a sword with no actual agency wants. I generally think of intelligent sword motivations as almost a sort of code of conduct thing. This sword is super strong, but it'll only grant you its powers if you agree to protect nature from defilement. This one is a sucker for law and order, so if you ever lie it'll reject you as its owner. This one's super bloodthirsty, so every time you try to resolve a conflict peacefully it'll try to drive you into a berserk killing frenzy. It's something super powerful, having a ton of at-will abilities baked into it, but it's also more like a patron than a piece of equipment--doing stuff like shoving it in a bag and ignoring it means that it just won't cooperate next time you need it in a fight.
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Jul 19, 2015 16:47
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I see you've yet to mention the most epic "intelligent" sword ever created. 
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Jul 20, 2015 13:21
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So I tracked down that Dragon Compendium published by Paizo, and their section on Solo Dungeons was actually a reprint of the original random dungeon generation tables by Gygax all the way back in the very first issue of The Strategic Review. The other thing I did find though was that the 3.0 DMG (not the 3.5 DMG) has random generation tables. And they look rather familiar.
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Jul 20, 2015 13:53
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The AD&D 1e Dungeon Master's Guide is now available from DTRPG, completing the 3-book set.
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Jul 21, 2015 16:28
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I think the better question is when are tomes 1 through 4 of the Encyclopedia Magica from 2e going to be digitized? I remember those books fondly as a source of inspirational material for all of the absolutely wacky poo poo that was in there (both new and compiled from elsewhere). If you ever see those faux-leatherette books anywhere they are worth a read just because of the amount of stuff that was in there. It also is a good indicator of TSR being crazy back in the 90s. Looks like you can buy the whole set for 75 bucks on ebay! Actually not that bad a deal since each book retailed for like 25 bucks MSRP when they were new.
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Jul 21, 2015 18:01
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aldantefax posted:I think the better question is when are tomes 1 through 4 of the Encyclopedia Magica from 2e going to be digitized? I remember those books fondly as a source of inspirational material for all of the absolutely wacky poo poo that was in there (both new and compiled from elsewhere). If you ever see those faux-leatherette books anywhere they are worth a read just because of the amount of stuff that was in there. It also is a good indicator of TSR being crazy back in the 90s.
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Jul 21, 2015 18:45
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I read "Priests Spell Compendium" as "Pirates Spell Compendium", which would have been a much more interesting book. Those expanded spell libraries did a lot to further reinforce caster supremacy since a lot of really awesome spells and expanded spheres were in the compendiums.
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Jul 21, 2015 18:56
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aldantefax posted:I read "Priests Spell Compendium" as "Pirates Spell Compendium", which would have been a much more interesting book. Those expanded spell libraries did a lot to further reinforce caster supremacy since a lot of really awesome spells and expanded spheres were in the compendiums. As has been gone over before "caster supremacy" was not as much a thing in 2e. Fighters were good at their role. Rogues on the other hand ...
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Jul 21, 2015 19:22
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What do you think about fully committing to <2E Rogues as skirmisher? Let em keep their skills, weapons, and armor, give them full Fighter Attack tables, and let back stab work on flank like in Combat and Tactics or 3E? Would this conceivably bring them up to snuff? E: Maybe give em a better hit die as well. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 00:35
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The Encyclopedia Magica books are wonderful. They even made an insane random treasure table in the fourth one that has you roll d1000. I picked up the spell ones at a local con and enjoy them most for the very specific spells, like making a ladder out of smoke. There isn't as much history and lore as for the magic items, but there's enough weird magic spells that they make a good breakfast or bathroom read. I should track down the priest set; my wife's dad (and gave to me) had the 2nd edition wizard spell card set and hand printed out and pasted onto note cards all the priest spells too, but I think the compendium probably has more exotic spells.
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Jul 22, 2015 03:19
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remusclaw posted:What do you think about fully committing to <2E Rogues as skirmisher? Let em keep their skills, weapons, and armor, give them full Fighter Attack tables, and let back stab work on flank like in Combat and Tactics or 3E? Would this conceivably bring them up to snuff? Fighters still kept special str/con bonuses and specialization to themselves though. Throwing knives and shortbows are suddenly more fun when you can hide, shoot, and might actually hit something.
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Jul 22, 2015 03:48
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I think you are right about moving them up to fighter xp tables, otherwise they kind of start to outshine the fighters in one of their key competencies pretty quick. Out of curiosity, does anyone have any thoughts on my 2E house rules? Good? Bad? Necessary clarifications? (Updated) Character Creation Initial stats: All stats start at 8 and players have 32 points to allocate wherever they wish, up to a maximum of 18. Racial modifications: Humans: May multiclass as a half Elf. No dual classing. Humans receive a racial ability adjustment of +2 to allocate to whatever stats they wish. It may be placed all in one stat or split. All races: No level limits. Class modifications. Thieves: Thieves use Fighter ThacO tables. Can backstab a flanked opponent with any weapon they are proficient in. They now advance on Fighter XP tables. Wizards: Must specialize, no straight mages. Priest: Must be a specific priest type, no straight clerics. Multi Class: All restrictions apply, so a multiclassed mage must actually be a specialist. No stat prerequisites are required to choose any class. Starting Money: Warrior 200gp Wizard 50gp Rogue 120gp Priest 180gp* *Unspent funds must be returned to the priests superiors. These funds may not be lent. Starting Equipment packages: May be taken for the specified price. Combat: As in Player's Option Combat & Tactics with some differences. Initiative is individual, and rolled at the beginning of combat. D10 defense adjustment. Lowest goes first and then combat continues counting up. There is no facing. Flanking is attained when a creature is surrounded on two sides by enemy creatures. It provokes a +2 to hit. A Thief may declare a backstab for +4 to hit. Unarmed attacks are handled as regular attacks. Damage 1d4. It provokes an attack of opportunity against any armed opponent it is used next to. Upon reducing a creature to 0 hit points the player who did so may decide whether the creature was subdued or killed. Death, Injury, and healing Death and Dying: A character is unconscious at 0 hit points. She is dead at the constitution score. (Sammy has a 14 constitution, therefore Sammy is dead if reduced to minus 14 hit points. A character is dying at -1 and loses a hit point a round until dead unless stabilized or healed. Healing magic automatically heals from 0 hit points up. (Sammy has -9 hit points. Bill the cleric casts cure light wounds and rolls a 7. Sammy now has 7 hit points and may get back into the fight once she stands up. Natural healing is done at the rate of 1hp + con hp mod per level/day. If the character only rests and does nothing else it is 2hp +con hp mod per level/day. If tended by a person with the healing proficiency it is at a rate of 3hp + con hp mod per level/day. 4hp + con hp mod per level per day if the healer also has herbalism. Finally, if either or both of the previous treatments are combined with full rest add one extra hit point a day. (4hp(Healing) or 5hp(Healing + Herbalism) + con hp mod per level/day) remusclaw fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 06:52
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I personally would review those initial stats: the bell curve means there's effectively no difference between 8 and 14 or 15, although if that was your intention, no biggie.
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Jul 22, 2015 07:08
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Any thoughts on a mathematically better array? I just wanted to do away with rolling because everyone cheats it anyway, but that is basically all the thought I put into it. I also haven't found a fix for percentile strength, so I will probably just leave it rolled. Maybe allow human attribute bonuses to raise it up a level per point spent. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 07:13
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It all looks workable to my 2e brain. I might drop (naked hand) unarmed damage down to 1-2 if you arent using "subdual" damage, since getting stabbed with a dagger is 1d4. I like adding weapon speed factors in for individual initiatives, but that can get finicky quick and I know some people dont want the numbers hassle. When I felt like the effort, I used a messy one (lowest first, tracked by segments): Weapons: (d10) + (SF) - (dex bonus) - (str to-hit bonus) - (specialization to-hit bonuses) - (style bonuses) * Spells: (d10) + (casting time) - (dex bonus) ** * This gave specialized/strong fighters huge advantages ** This could never be less than the casting time For the most part once its figured out for a weapon then its just a basic number to add/subtract from the roll. 1 or less is set to segment 1. 10 or more is set to segment 10, unless its a spell that requires longer to cast, then it wraps around to the next round. Monsters had some chart somewhere that went by HD and/or size, but I cant remember it. If they had hand-like things and using a weapon then they used SFs if they were levelled (like a duergar fighter with a weapon) or just a straight roll with the monster addition/subtraction if they were extremely un-normal (like a "type" demon with a weapon).
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Jul 22, 2015 07:22
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gradenko_2000 posted:I personally would review those initial stats: the bell curve means there's effectively no difference between 8 and 14 or 15, although if that was your intention, no biggie. Also if you use stat checks a lot the difference between 8 and 15 is pretty big.
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Jul 22, 2015 07:25
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18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8 comes from how that's a +4, +3, +2, +1, 0, -1 modifier in post-3rd Edition games. It's actually a bit tricky because to simulate something similar in 2nd Edition because a 13 doesn't mean the same thing across all ability scores, but something like 18, 17, 16, 15, 13 and 10 might be okay, if a bit on the high side. Alternatively, set all ability scores to 8, and give everyone 32 points to play with.
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Jul 22, 2015 07:26
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On unarmed damage, I figured I would embrace the abstractness of D&D combat so it stands in for any unarmed fighting at all, headlocks, chokes, punches and kicks. The damage was because I dislike halving die rolls and figured the attack of opportunity would give disincentive to using it anywhere but in an unarmed brawl, where the extra damage would be be ubiquitous. One of the later editions had a rule where the person who finally reduced a combatant to 0 hp got to choose whether they were subdued or killed and I am going to use that, though I did forget to add it to my house rules. E: If I mess with initiative rules too much as regards to weapon speed I will spiral down that hole inside me that feels the the whole weapons table needs revising, and will spend way too much time trying to convert the GURPS Low Tech tables to D&D. E2: Gradenko, I think I will probably go with the 8 + 32 style point buy you suggested, gives a bit more options to the players than an array with similar results. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 07:40 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 07:28
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Were there ever official PDFs of OD&D/Three Brown Books and their supplements, and the Holmes Basic Set that we might expect someday?
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Jul 22, 2015 07:58
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gradenko_2000 posted:Were there ever official PDFs of OD&D/Three Brown Books and their supplements, and the Holmes Basic Set that we might expect someday? Sadly no.
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Jul 22, 2015 08:02
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