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Klades posted:Well, I think Clemency scales from attack power anyway. It does, and STR vs. VIT is a difference of like 1000 HP healed.
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Jul 19, 2015 06:00
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On the other hand Divine Veil scales off of the Paladin's HP so really the answer is to start blowing millions on penta melded accessories for best of both worlds.
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Jul 19, 2015 06:02
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Opposing Farce posted:I saw so many people kill themselves trying to jump on Bismarck's back before he landed in the first couple of days after early access started. I tapped L1 and careened off the island itself, near the back, while the three birds were up in the last phase. As a tank. I'm kinda..yeah.
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Jul 19, 2015 06:09
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Eej posted:On the other hand Divine Veil scales off of the Paladin's HP so really the answer is to start blowing millions on penta melded accessories for best of both worlds. Honestly the only reason why I made a penta-melded set is because I don't feel like jumping into DF for my tomes and triggering some terrible healer who stops to write an essay the moment they see a tank that isn't full vit, fending and tank stance 100% of the time. For some people their idea of the balance between the healing and tanking side of damage management is for the tank to make it as easy as possible so they can have enough downtime between their cure spam to automatically activate /cpose. This game is full of terrible players, STR tanking is a convenient scapegoat for them.
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Jul 19, 2015 06:37
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Well there's also the fact that penta-melded 150 accessories are projected to be better in terms of overall stats than even 200 fending/slaying accessories, although I'm not sure how people quite mathed that one out when the increased stats per 10 ilvl seems to be really erratic (Vit and Str end up 1:1 ratio at 190).
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Jul 19, 2015 06:43
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Klades posted:I honestly do feel like this is a problem, since "focus on gear that makes you do more damage instead of gear that improves your eHP" is counter-intuitive, but I'm not sure what SE could do about it, unless they retooled a lot of defensive options to scale from VIT. Or gave tanks some attack power from VIT, which would be silly. Sounds like an argument for "Death to Ability Scores", which a lot of people in Traditional Games would approve of.
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Jul 19, 2015 07:08
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Klades posted:In my experience, equipping VIT is only especially useful if you would either die within 5 seconds otherwise, or you're doing big pulls in a 4man and want the healer to be able to get some damage off before they have to start dropping heal bombs on you. yeah some handy skills scale driectly off of how much damage youre doing, like the DRK mp drain or MRD Bloodbath, the only thing VIT gives you is a slightly higher HP number while STR can make your mitigation stronger as well, plus it helps to push DPS checks and potentially skip phases which means less work for the healer anyway. I suppose you would want vit gear if you were a bad and stood in all the stuff, otherwise its kindof a waste.
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Jul 19, 2015 07:17
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Finally hit 50 for the first time as a Monk about a week ago, and just completed the Praetorium. Been a hell of a journey and the best part is now I can learn the Manderville!
Catsworth fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 07:34
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As a healer, here's my perspective on tank STR vs VIT: If you're rolling with your static, everyone knows the fight, no pubs etc and you've got this poo poo on farm? STR it up, go to town. It is a fairly small DPS add in the scheme of things, but what the hell every little bit helps. Nobody is close to death and there is a tight enrage? Perfect time for STR gear. If you're in the duty finder, however, equip some goddamn vit gear. I have enough to worry about with pubtrash DPS loving up mechanics and jumping around while targeted with lasers and giving me hugs on A4 when I have healer AIDS and stacking for orbs and poo poo that an offtank with 12.5-13k HP who is always one hit away from death is just not another thing I want to have to worry about. Your extra 50 or 100 DPS do not make up for the fact that I have to babysit your rear end 2x as much as I would otherwise. The extra HP is another hit/orb/whatever, and that is one or two more GCDs I have to keep DPS from killing themselves. No one dying adds a shitton more DPS than your STR jewelry will. It is to the point now that when I load into an A4 with two DRKs at 13k HP I just leave. It is not worth the hassle in the DF. Statics, again, different story. Doresain fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 09:03
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Doresain posted:As a healer, here's my perspective on tank STR vs VIT: Wear STR when you're confident about the content and know who you're running with, but please stop this awful meme of "STR only or you're bad," because it's not making things any better when mediocre tanks destroy their survivability for a bit more DPS potential.
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Jul 19, 2015 09:08
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I also agree with the above, although to be honest I've always been of a mind that unless you're doing completely bleeding edge content literally the instant it comes out and you're good enough to get away with it, you probably don't even need to be considering if you should use STR or VIT; you just know. For everybody else, even in a static, I'd argue the extra VIT will often make more of a difference than your pathetic extra DPS (with the exception of the off-tank, probably). It's like I always tell any tank that asks STR or VIT: It's VIT, always, if you have to ask. You can't go wrong with it since, after all, your job's to stay alive. Poultron fucked around with this message at 09:30 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 09:26
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Yeah 900 dps is pretty poo poo I agree , these try hard tanks jeez
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Jul 19, 2015 09:41
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Please stop the meme of calling everything a meme
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Jul 19, 2015 09:46
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You get bonus VIT from your Traits, therefore you should stack VIT, it's that simple folks, it's all so obvious
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Jul 19, 2015 09:47
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Also I guarantee you the poo poo tanks you're all whining about? Their issue is 99% cool down management. I've healed through final coil in this game and when the game decides throw damage at a tank, unless it's a tank buster It doesn't matter how much health they have They're going to melt without proper cool down rotation And if it is a tank buster We all already said to stack vit if they are an issue
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Jul 19, 2015 09:50
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Tarranon posted:Yeah 900 dps is pretty poo poo I agree , these try hard tanks jeez For one, I've never seen a tank parse 900 DPS real world. I'm sure it is possible for all you savage coil motherfuckers, but I've never seen a tank in the DF pull it off. For two, it isn't like their DPS would have been zero without the strength gear. Anyone good enough to do 900 DPS as a tank would do a good deal of dps even with vit gear. For 3, and I am still talking about the duty finder here, your DPS doesn't matter if the party wipes, which there is a significantly higher chance of doing in the duty finder if you reduce your survivability by that degree. Once again, statics are a different story.
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Jul 19, 2015 09:53
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I'm waiting for my disk copy of HW to come in the mail (it was £10 cheaper than digital, so why not) and I have discovered that Chocobo Racing owns. Does anyone know if there's a decent build guide out or is it really just as simple as do whatever you like and breed your Choco when you get it to rank 40?
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Jul 19, 2015 09:58
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Evader posted:
One of the lessons you'll eventually learn and benefit from is that there are no 'oh poo poo' buttons for tanks once you know what you're doing. Your defensive cooldowns are there to be used strategically, rather than reactively. Understanding what they actually do goes a long way toward understanding how and when to use them. Even abilities that are remotely 'oh poo poo' (Holmgang, Hallowed Ground, that DRK thing) are often used tactically by someone who knows what they're doing, even if that's just to allow a healer to squeeze out more damage on dungeon trash or to survive particular fight mechanics. Love your defensive cooldowns. Give 'em nice keybinds and use them. e: this whole VIT STR bullshit going on is partially related to this. The 'VIT Crowd' (ooh) are normally those that 'save' cooldowns for no reason. Kettlepip fucked around with this message at 10:05 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 09:58
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People will only get better if you expect them to and provide growth oriented advices Alternatively whine about poo poo pubbies forever
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Jul 19, 2015 10:00
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I solo queue for expert roulette every goddamned day in full STR and never switch off Deliverance and am usually the top DPS by a wide margin and only ever die if the healer AFKs before a pull. If the healer is absolutely poo poo, Defiance is all the +VIT I need to hard carry the party.
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Jul 19, 2015 10:01
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Boten Anna posted:I solo queue for expert roulette every goddamned day in full STR and never switch off Deliverance and am usually the top DPS by a wide margin and only ever die if the healer AFKs before a pull. If the healer is absolutely poo poo, Defiance is all the +VIT I need to hard carry the party. Lol.
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Jul 19, 2015 10:09
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Doresain posted:For one, I've never seen a tank parse 900 DPS real world. I'm sure it is possible for all you savage coil motherfuckers, but I've never seen a tank in the DF pull it off. People that parrot "use STR" with no regard for anything else are as bad as the people that parrot "use VIT" under the same circumstances. And if a new tank is asking which they should use the correct answer is "use STR when you know you can use STR". I agree it is the ideal but sometimes there is other poo poo to consider. And yes, I have cleared everything. You're fine always using STR bonus attributes though. And just about something else that was being talked about, yeah, tank cooldowns should be used proactively, not reactively. Don't wait until you're already 20-25% to start hitting them. Hallowed, Holmgang and Living Dead are the exceptions. And even then, if you wait too long to decide "I need this" you might just die during the start-up because of this game's many ... quirks. Ed: quote:The thing is that HP has nothing to do with mitigation. Other than those two situations, equipping more VIT does not reduce the burden on the healer. You could have argued for it before, when Lustrate was % based and Stoneskin was 18% for WHM, but now almost every heal that hits you doesn't give a poo poo about what your maxHP is. So if you're taking damage that you can reasonably live through, putting on another 5000 health just means the healer can start casting cure later. This argument is technically correct but only in the world where the healer is doing nothing but chain casting on the tank. This isn't really how things go. It also assumes your healer always has the GCD available for you and only you. Someone else presented a better example than I probably can of where this could easily not be the case-- dealing with dps, not yet knowing the fight well enough to accurately gauge incoming damage on either you the tank or the party, whatever. You don't really know what you're going to get in a DF. Anyway, a healer can likely easily balloon you back up to full but only if your HP is above 1. If you wipe because of some other dumb poo poo but you were never in any danger, hey, you can always throw that STR poo poo on. I suppose the inverse is true too, you could throw VIT stuff on after the fact if you feel like the healer was strained, but in the former case you can be certain the problem wasn't you. I dunno, just my two cents. Unsmart fucked around with this message at 10:56 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 10:24
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kirbysuperstar posted:I tapped L1 and careened off the island itself, near the back, while the three birds were up in the last phase. As a tank. I forget, did you do that in the run where we actually cleared it? I know that things got kind of clusterfucky and we wound up missing a dragonkiller.
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Jul 19, 2015 10:28
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vOv posted:I forget, did you do that in the run where we actually cleared it? I know that things got kind of clusterfucky and we wound up missing a dragonkiller. I did yeah. Earlier on I flubbed what probably would have been a kill by getting launched off his back 
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Jul 19, 2015 10:35
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Doresain posted:For one, I've never seen a tank parse 900 DPS real world. I'm sure it is possible for all you savage coil motherfuckers, but I've never seen a tank in the DF pull it off. I don't see it in DF either, the biggest reason is that most tanks have absolutely no idea and turtle with full vit and tank stance even when they are taking no damage. I even encounter tanks that raid who don't know that you can pull without tank stance and still keep threat, they never experiment or are brow-beaten into never experimenting because "you're a tank not a DPS". Learning how to do these things starts with using STR and getting away from the cookie cutter fending build, there is a balance but you have to start increasing the pressure if you want to learn this balance.
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Jul 19, 2015 12:08
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Only fat ugly babies use Vit Cool handsome men with VERY large penises use str Checkmate
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Jul 19, 2015 12:51
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At the very least str vs vit is about the only interesting gear choice in this game. I thought they mentioned there would be more interesting itemization options soon. I don't think dps or healers have any polarizing gearing decisions like tanks?
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Jul 19, 2015 13:07
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I'm back to the game after a multi-month break, during which Heavensward came out. I completed the 2.x storyline yesterday and got to Ishgard, unlocking the three new classes. Are there any handy guides out there that show quest progression and ilvl requirements and what not I need to unlock all the new content? I didn't see anything in the OP like the reddit mega threads and what not from back in the day.
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Jul 19, 2015 13:17
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f1av0r posted:At the very least str vs vit is about the only interesting gear choice in this game. I thought they mentioned there would be more interesting itemization options soon. I don't think dps or healers have any polarizing gearing decisions like tanks? Sometimes healers like to put on accuracy stuff or Vit to survive certain things. But no. Itemization is just a straight shot down a hallway for most classes. Esp since secondary effects are diminished or whatever.
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Jul 19, 2015 13:33
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Klungar posted:I'm back to the game after a multi-month break, during which Heavensward came out. I completed the 2.x storyline yesterday and got to Ishgard, unlocking the three new classes. Are there any handy guides out there that show quest progression and ilvl requirements and what not I need to unlock all the new content? I didn't see anything in the OP like the reddit mega threads and what not from back in the day. To do the last story dungeon in the Heavensward MQ, you need to be ilvl142. To do the two post-MQ dungeons, you need to be i145, doing them will unlock your expert roulette. To get into the latest raid you need to be i170. e: Maints on the 21st and 23rd, for Alex Savage and new crafting stuff respectively Ignimbrite fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 13:54
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I main a healer, and it has taught me enough that when I do runs on my Paladin I go full STR accessories unless the healer is obviously having problems. This is something I can observe and decide for myself based on watching my HP and their cast bar. It isn't hard to do so and I don't have people on runs bitching at me about my HP. My personal feeling is I would rather my tank focus on STR gearing if they are capable of cooldown management and Not Standing In poo poo, which is more important than what -ing suffix is on their right side gear. On a similar note I like to see my healers doing DPS as well when I tank for them and if they aren't doing so then I can adjust accordingly. If I am taking too much damage for them to DPS then I may need to adjust what I am doing. If it is one of those "Do DPS? Nah, I queued as healer" types then I am going to do bigger pulls. As long as both tank and healer are paying attention to what the other is doing then the stat spread doesn't matter to much.
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Jul 19, 2015 14:55
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All this str/vit talk and nobody has seemed to think about it in terms other than The only good way to gear out your PAL is with piety gear of course. Those guys are religious nutjobs almost to the point of being Ishgardians, so of course more religious furor is necessary. Actually, now I want to see a limit break Easter egg where if a whole party is decked out in piety gear the LB summons a mini-primal
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Jul 19, 2015 15:22
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How much more does a tank even do in full str gear vs vit gear? Wouldn't the solution to this debate be tanks wear full vit gear and healers should heal in cleric stance while dpsing the entire fight?
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Jul 19, 2015 15:28
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The solution is people stop being bad and healers and tanks can both DPS as long as no one's getting killed and everyone gets loot and everyone's happy
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Jul 19, 2015 15:34
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Sentient Data posted:All this str/vit talk and nobody has seemed to think about it in terms other than Piety is viable on DRK too, makes mana management easier. But that's just for the 'end-game' since its more of a meld choice. Expect Piety V materia price to go through the roof.
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Jul 19, 2015 15:34
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As a healer, I wait in till the tank is exactly 20% hp before I start casting my heals. When they don't use vit gear it seems like I have to do more stuff, time to make a community post somewhere.
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Jul 19, 2015 15:38
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There's no choice between VIT or STR either FYI. If you choose VIT you chose wrong. Learn to use your damned cooldowns on a rotation in anticipation of big hits. Not after you've already been tank slapped for 10k like an idiot. Its a lot easier for the tank who is already hitting the boss to do more damage than it is for a healer to target juggle, not that STR accessories preclude an even halfway decent healer from dpsing at all. If you think the extra 4000 hp matters, it doesn't. It's not a significant pillow or cushion or whatever. Don't excuse poor tanking by blaming their stupid jewelry.
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Jul 19, 2015 15:40
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Tenzarin posted:How much more does a tank even do in full str gear vs vit gear? Wouldn't the solution to this debate be tanks wear full vit gear and healers should heal in cleric stance while dpsing the entire fight? Several hundred DPS. It's the difference between doing 600 as a MT and 300. Also why would the healers stop dps'ing even if the tank is in STR gear? VIT doesn't mitigate any damage, the tank is still going to take exactly the same amount whether they have 15k hp or 20k.
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Jul 19, 2015 15:40
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Pews posted:Piety is viable on DRK too, makes mana management easier. But that's just for the 'end-game' since its more of a meld choice. Expect Piety V materia price to go through the roof. 
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Jul 19, 2015 15:40
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Pews posted:Piety is viable on DRK too, makes mana management easier. But that's just for the 'end-game' since its more of a meld choice. Expect Piety V materia price to go through the roof. Next level market manipulation here.
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Jul 19, 2015 15:42
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