|
There's more to psychology than doing moves imo
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 07:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 07:01 |
|
|
I like how the only way to have great matches is to do a bunch of cool moves. William Regal: lovely wrestler apparently.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 07:40
|
|
|
Jerry Lawler is one of my favorite guys ever and he basically had one "move" which was punching people repeatedly
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 07:41
|
|
|
Alain Post posted:Jerry Lawler is one of my favorite guys ever and he basically had one "move" which was punching people repeatedly and a dropkick!
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 07:42
|
|
|
Ric Flair: lovely wrestler.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 07:42
|
|
|
At some point it appears I said heels do need moves or something? I just pointed out some guys who do lots of moves but get plenty of heat as heels as proof of the idea that you can be a heel and do moves and get over. Also I think you'll find Flair goes to the top rope all the time.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 07:46
|
|
|
DynamiteKidd posted:At some point it appears I said heels do need moves or something? I just pointed out some guys who do lots of moves but get plenty of heat as heels as proof of the idea that you can be a heel and do moves and get over. No, but you did say that not doing lots of cool moves = having lovely matches. Also every time Flair went to the top rope it ended in him looking a buffoon. That's about as far from doing a cool move as possible.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 07:48
|
|
|
Dean Malenko had like a thousand moves so he was a thousand times better than Hogan. But Chris Jericho had like a thousand and four moves so he was a thousand and four times better than Hogan.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 07:49
|
|
|
The quote I was repeatedly referring to had Storm say "lol AJ does cool poo poo AND HAS GREAT MATCHES", which in my mind parses as two separate things (AJ does cool poo poo, he also has great matches) Anyway, my point was: Would Lance rather AJ had bad matches? Would that really be so much better? Also I mentioned Dragon Gate and moves as done by its roster -- I was talking about them in reference to HEELS DOING MOVES, I wasn't necessarily saying they have the best matches you could ever imagine because they do a lot of crazy moves, I was saying that some of them are heels despite having tons of crazy moves. EDIT: yes thank you I was making a joke about Flair on the rope I appreciate you pointing that out to me, the maker of this joke. DynamiteKidd fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Jul 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 07:50
|
|
|
I mean I think the concept of being a heel and not doing crazy spots/moves to get the crowd to pop for you is fairly simple.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 07:56
|
|
|
DynamiteKidd posted:Anyway, my point was: Would Lance rather AJ had bad matches? Would that really be so much better? Lance would rather AJ Styles be a babyface because all of the things that make him worthwhile are really cool. Those really cool things play a significant role in his having good matches. He tends to play babyface on the indies (and is very over) against local heels for that reason, because he does really cool moves that people like to see and cheer for. It also doesn't help that at the time in TNA AJ Styles looked like the literal definition of babyface, as opposed to the angsty hair/scruffy beard combo he's been running lately. rare Magic card l00k fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Jul 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 08:06
|
|
|
I would like it if everyone could do moves that are sometimes cool and sometimes basic but maybe their mannerisms and the way they carry themselves in the ring and the story they tell determines their apparent alignment? That's my stupid opinion, thanks. Bye.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 08:09
|
|
|
HulkaMatt posted:I mean I think the concept of being a heel and not doing crazy spots/moves to get the crowd to pop for you is fairly simple. And yet heels in every top indy promotion in the past 15+ years can do cool moves and still be over as heels despite it, so it's not some set in stone principle and it's retarded to act like it's even a base level thing at this point. Jack Evans was an obnoxious cockbag in Gen Next and did insane poo poo all the time and it didn't keep people from wanting to see him get his rear end beat
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 08:37
|
|
|
MotU posted:I would like it if everyone could do moves that are sometimes cool and sometimes basic but maybe their mannerisms and the way they carry themselves in the ring and the story they tell determines their apparent alignment? That's my stupid opinion, thanks. Bye. This. I love when Kevin Owens refuses to do moves and takes his opponents on a trip to Chinlock City Bitch, but I love it because it's a fitting move for his character. Yes, it's objectively a heel tactic designed to get you to boo him, but I don't boo him because "Arg, I want cool moves," which is the traditional understanding off heel psychology. I boo him because his character is an rear end in a top hat and he makes me hate him, and excessive chinlocks are an extension of that persona and it's relationship to the audience just like rolling out of the ring constantly is. His corner cannonball is a "cool move," and it gets a ton of boos. Compare Randy Orton. When he does the same sort of over-use of restholds as a heel, nobody enjoys it, it's go-away heat rather than proper heel work. I personally believe that's because that kind of thing doesn't fit Randy's "Viper," character. Moves where he goes from zero-to-60 in an instant, where he can spend a couple of seconds mocking the crowd, making faces, stalking his opponent in the background so the crowd can boo because they don't want to see him win before delivering a nasty shot, those are the moves that get him REAL heat when he's a heel, those are the extensions of his crazy ptsd snake man heel persona, not lazy rear end headlocks. For a more historic example, look at Jake Roberts. The DDT was the most over move ever, the cheers it got were nuclear... unless Jake was a heel. Lance Storm might argue that's because the DDT is not a "cool move." Except if you see Jake do his spinny finger signal thing and watch 60,000 people lose their loving minds, you know that's not true. Jake's moves always matched his CHARACTER, and he changed the presentation of the character to match his alignment, whether it was bible verses or Trust Me, Trust Me. But at the end of the day he was still doing the DDT, and the reaction to it always matched what he was doing. If someone is being a proper heel, they can do cool pop-creating moves all day and people will still despise them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 08:51
|
|
|
i dont know if the thing about all the stuff AJ does that makes him worthwhile being babyface stuff was from Lance Storm or the guy up there but it's not true at all. he's a great seller, bumps huge, isn't afraid to stooge and look foolish, is good at jawing with the crowd, etc.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 09:07
|
|
|
I'm not convinced any of the guys people have claimed get over big as heels while doing cool moves actually are over all that much as heels btw. They might be over and also heels, which might result in fans booing them depending on how willing they are to play along, but it's a different thing. I'm also not sure that's necessarily connected to whether or not they do cool moves though. Or that there's even anything wrong with heels that get cheered, which guys like Lance Storm like to act like is a modern thing but look at fuckin Flair, Casas etc.
Spermgod fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Jul 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 09:09
|
|
|
I don't care about who is heel or face! I just want to watch matches where both guys do every single move they know how to do and kick out of it at all at 2.9 so I can chant how awesome it all is.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 10:26
|
|
|
Let's not forget that Lance Storm has universally stupid opinions and the most high profile student of his is loving Emma. So yes, wrestlers, listen to Lance Storm and one day you too can reach the dizzying heights of Emma
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 14:17
|
|
|
flashy_mcflash posted:Let's not forget that Lance Storm has universally stupid opinions and the most high profile student of his is loving Emma. So yes, wrestlers, listen to Lance Storm and one day you too can reach the dizzying heights of Emma Counterpoint: He also trained the French Stallion
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 14:24
|
|
|
goc posted:I don't care about who is heel or face! I just want to watch matches where both guys do every single move they know how to do and kick out of it at all at 2.9 so I can chant how awesome it all is. also, I want them to elbow and kick and knee each other in the face as hard as they possibly can without legitimately killing the other wrestler. Basically I want every match I watch to be a Roddy Strong and/or Chris Hero match.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 14:28
|
|
|
flashy_mcflash posted:Let's not forget that Lance Storm has universally stupid opinions and the most high profile student of his is loving Emma. So yes, wrestlers, listen to Lance Storm and one day you too can reach the dizzying heights of Emma Given how many of his students get signed to WWE developmental deals yeah, people probably should listen to him and train with him because he's great at his job.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 14:46
|
|
|
super macho dude posted:also, I want them to elbow and kick and knee each other in the face as hard as they possibly can without legitimately killing the other wrestler. Yes and they should also do it in the very dramatic and ultra realistic fighting spirit style of "Grrr I just elbowed you in the face, now you elbow me!" "Ok I elbowed you back, now I will stand here so you can elbow me in return!" Repeat 50 times
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 14:47
|
|
|
MassRafTer posted:Given how many of his students get signed to WWE developmental deals yeah, people probably should listen to him and train with him because he's great at his job. Like Tyler Breeze, who's taken Lance's opinions to heart and is a heel who both does flashy moves and gets such consistent heel heat that a full 50% of any crowd is chanting "Tyler's gorgeous". Wrestlers should absolutely go to his school, learn mechanics, milk his connections, and immediately forget anything he teaches about character, libraries, and vaccines
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 15:06
|
|
|
If every match doesn't have the spot where two wrasslers are trading stiff as gently caress elbows to the face, then one goes for a spinning elbow, the other ducks it and nails a crazy head kick WHICH THE OTHER ONE NO-SELLS and destroys him with a spinning lariat I get super pissed and refuse to chant "This is awesome" 
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 15:07
|
|
|
flashy_mcflash posted:Like Tyler Breeze, who's taken Lance's opinions to heart and is a heel who both does flashy moves and gets such consistent heel heat that a full 50% of any crowd is chanting "Tyler's gorgeous". And yet so many of his students come out with good characters and grasps of psychology because Lance Storm in fact knows his poo poo and it makes people mad. Either way this thread isn't supposed to be about this dumb stuff and it was discussed to death elsewhere.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 15:14
|
|
|
super macho dude posted:If every match doesn't have the spot where two wrasslers are trading stiff as gently caress elbows to the face, then one goes for a spinning elbow, the other ducks it and nails a crazy head kick WHICH THE OTHER ONE NO-SELLS and destroys him with a spinning lariat I get super pissed and refuse to chant "This is awesome" Well you should refuse to chant, otherwise how are those scrubs gonna learn how to work? Also having the crowd chant for you isn't really "heel heat" and kind of backs up Lance's point but it's loving Full Sail and I'm just waiting for them to come up with their version of the Bentley Bounce so they can complete their transformation into the NXT iMPACT Zone.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 15:16
|
|
|
I'm glad that @PSP_TXT is alive and well in this thread.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 16:19
|
|
|
MassRafTer posted:Either way this thread isn't supposed to be about this dumb stuff It is the Stupid Fan Opinions thread 
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 16:38
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:This. I love when Kevin Owens refuses to do moves and takes his opponents on a trip to Chinlock City Bitch, but I love it because it's a fitting move for his character. Yes, it's objectively a heel tactic designed to get you to boo him, but I don't boo him because "Arg, I want cool moves," which is the traditional understanding off heel psychology. I boo him because his character is an rear end in a top hat and he makes me hate him, and excessive chinlocks are an extension of that persona and it's relationship to the audience just like rolling out of the ring constantly is. His corner cannonball is a "cool move," and it gets a ton of boos. Johnny Mundo had a good discussion on Steve Austin's podcast this week about ring psychology, and he said one of the approaches he takes in terms of face/heel psychology is "The face gives the crowd what they want; the heel takes that away." I thought that was neat. It doesn't have to be avoiding entertaining stuff. Not doing your high-flying moves is certainly one way to not give the crowd what they want. But there are also other ways, it's not just moves and anyone who gets locked in that mindset is boiling it down to just one aspect of what you can do. Interestingly enough, Austin and Mundo both agreed that they actually felt more free to experiment with moves as a heel, since if something sucked they weren't messing up at being the perfect hero.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 17:11
|
|
|
super macho dude posted:also, I want them to elbow and kick and knee each other in the face as hard as they possibly can without legitimately killing the other wrestler. this but add Ishii, MiSu, and Shibata and mix forever
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 17:33
|
|
|
Jake the Snake is a good example of a heel using their flashy move well, to frustrate and anger the audience by suddenly bringing the match to an end. A lot of heel finishers are like that, just "no matter what, I can drop you immediately." But moves which require more setup can work as well, though it's dependent on the face selling that they've been totally demolished and this is just the final blow. (Yokozuna's banzai drop, Rusev's accolade, etc.)
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 18:56
|
|
|
Aesop Poprock posted:And yet heels in every top indy promotion in the past 15+ years can do cool moves and still be over as heels despite it, so it's not some set in stone principle and it's retarded to act like it's even a base level thing at this point. Jack Evans was an obnoxious cockbag in Gen Next and did insane poo poo all the time and it didn't keep people from wanting to see him get his rear end beat Not really sure why the concept of not doing crazy cool moves to outshine your babyface opponent is such a struggle here. I know Lance says a lot of really dumb poo poo, but I think you guys are reaching here.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 19:35
|
|
|
Maybe the face should just get cooler moves then. The Arms Race worked for the Cold War, it can work for wrestling
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 19:41
|
|
|
All this talk reminding me of when TNA decided to put little heel AJ Styles vs. big monster babyface Abyss and it was such a stupid dynamic.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 19:42
|
|
|
MotU posted:Maybe the face should just get cooler moves then. The Arms Race worked for the Cold War, it can work for wrestling I thought faces should only have like a few signature moves and no other offense?
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 19:52
|
|
|
TNA also did a feud between Abyss and Stevie Richards, where babyface Abyss looked like a giant dickhead bully in their PPV match because Stevie got zero offense on him and was being slaughtered. There's probably A Way to book a giant monster face against a much-smaller heel, but lol@doing it like that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 19:52
|
|
|
Maxwell Lord posted:Jake the Snake is a good example of a heel using their flashy move well, to frustrate and anger the audience by suddenly bringing the match to an end. A lot of heel finishers are like that, just "no matter what, I can drop you immediately." Really there's nothing wrong with someone you're supposed to boo having a cool move so long as the reaction you get is begrudging respect. "I really don't want him to win, but that was pretty great, I have to admit." You can have a heel using impressive or flashy moves all day long so long as the desire of the audience for them to lose (or the face to win) is a stronger impression. Just have some big storyline or character point that makes them hateable.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 19:53
|
|
|
HulkaMatt posted:All this talk reminding me of when TNA decided to put little heel AJ Styles vs. big monster babyface Abyss and it was such a stupid dynamic. I take it you're looking forward to Kane/Rollins
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 19:54
|
|
|
DynamiteKidd posted:TNA also did a feud between Abyss and Stevie Richards, where babyface Abyss looked like a giant dickhead bully in their PPV match because Stevie got zero offense on him and was being slaughtered. There's probably A Way to book a giant monster face against a much-smaller heel, but lol@doing it like that. Taker/HBK
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 19:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 07:01 |
|
|
Or Kane/X-Pac
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2015 20:03
|
|
