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Mavric posted:At the risk of starting a derail; Honest question what did she do that was an arrestable offense? She wasn't refusing the ticket or anything, she just refused to put her cigarette out. Is failing to obey every ancillary command by a cop a jailable offense? The guy never even told her why she was being arrested even after she kept yelling it at him, are cops required to tell you why you are under arrest? In texas, traffic tickets are arrestable. There was a supreme court case upholding an arrest for like a seatbelt violation there. They are in more states than you'd think, particularly of you're on an out of state license. Note that in most states, what she did was arrestable. His order for her to get out of the car would have been found legal. Her refusal to do so would fall under restisting, delay, or obstructing a peace officer, a stupidly broad statute most states have (often incorrectly called resisting arrest -- you need not be arrested to be violating), which is always at least a misdemeanor. Also, re: doctoring the tape, someone made a pretty good post a page or two back about how some of these systems do weird things. It is absolutely believable because police computer systems are all terrible and quite frankly cops aren't savy enough to edit video. They might cut off the first or last 10 monutes and hide it, but anything more is to complex for them. nm fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 18:28
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Case is Atwater v. City of Lago Vista if anyone wants to look it up. Read it and think about how often you commit a traffic misdemeanor, and thus how often you could be transported violently to literal jail. Then imagine being the type of person whom cops would want to do something that unfair to. I'm with you, nm, on how disobeying the order to get out of the car was arrestable, but don't know enough to know whether his order to put out the cigarette would have been considered a "lawful order". You have thoughts?
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Jul 22, 2015 18:40
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thatdarnedbob posted:Case is Atwater v. City of Lago Vista if anyone wants to look it up. Read it and think about how often you commit a traffic misdemeanor, and thus how often you could be transported violently to literal jail. Then imagine being the type of person whom cops would want to do something that unfair to. I'm with you, nm, on how disobeying the order to get out of the car was arrestable, but don't know enough to know whether his order to put out the cigarette would have been considered a "lawful order". You have thoughts? The cigarette is not enough to be an arrestable offense, but he just needs to justify ordering her step out of the car, which is really, really easy. She Pennsylvania v. Mimms.
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Jul 22, 2015 18:58
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Wow that's awful, its a blank check to throw people you don't like in a hole.
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Jul 22, 2015 19:02
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Has anyone posted about the real problem yet? Changing lanes without signaling is bullshit and people need to stop driving so recklessly!
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Jul 22, 2015 19:03
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nm posted:The cigarette is not enough to be an arrestable offense, but he just needs to justify ordering her step out of the car, which is really, really easy. She Pennsylvania v. Mimms. There's enough to go to a jury though based on the video tape that he didn't actually have reasonable suspicion that she was armed to conduct the Terry search.
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Jul 22, 2015 19:04
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:There's enough to go to a jury though based on the video tape that he didn't actually have reasonable suspicion that she was armed to conduct the Terry search. Maybe. You could (and I would) argue that based on him doing this after what happened it was bullshit, but one "I well as she was arguing she reached into her pocket which had a bulge" and we're done.
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Jul 22, 2015 19:08
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nm posted:Maybe. You could (and I would) argue that based on him doing this after what happened it was bullshit, but one "I well as she was arguing she reached into her pocket which had a bulge" and we're done. That sounds literally impossible to beat...
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Jul 22, 2015 19:10
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Mulaney Power Move posted:Has anyone posted about the real problem yet? Changing lanes without signaling is bullshit and people need to stop driving so recklessly! I actually bitch about this all of the time, but, even though you're joking, a police officer suddenly whipping out behind a person invariably ALWAYS causes them to make a driving mistake or do something wrong of that level.
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Jul 22, 2015 19:15
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Radish posted:That sounds literally impossible to beat... It's been established, the laws are clear, if a police officer believes something it doesn't matter whether it's true or not. As long as he says he believes it.
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Jul 22, 2015 19:19
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Darko posted:I actually bitch about this all of the time, but, even though you're joking, a police officer suddenly whipping out behind a person invariably ALWAYS causes them to make a driving mistake or do something wrong of that level. Yup, it looked like she nervously did an "oh poo poo, I need to get out of the way of this cop that just sped up behind me"
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Jul 22, 2015 19:24
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:There's enough to go to a jury though based on the video tape that he didn't actually have reasonable suspicion that she was armed to conduct the Terry search. Wouldn't need it, at least here. We've interpreted Mimms to say that an officer can order a driver or passenger out of the car during a lawful stop regardless, and I'd imagine Texas is similar.
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Jul 22, 2015 19:27
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ActusRhesus posted:You'd be surprised. A while back someone was honestly arguing that murder doesn't belong in prison and should instead be sent to a therapeutic commune. Why not? Texas did it with a lovely rich kid who killed people with an SUV. Remember Affluenza?
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Jul 22, 2015 19:35
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Remember how people were saying squatters risked death by squatting? I bet this DA squatting in a house for 5 years had no such worries. And this other DA who embezzled $5k didn't consider it a crime because, well he's a drug fighting hero! quote:A 2009 audit of the District Attorney’s Office that represents Beaver, Cimarron, Harper and Texas counties found that a Beaver County assistant district attorney began living rent-free in a house obtained in a 2004 forfeiture. A judge had ordered the house sold at an auction, but the prosecutor lived there through 2009. No charges filed and the state even covered the costs of the embezzlement. Pretty sure they're both still employed, but could be wrong about that.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:03
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zzyzx posted:Wouldn't need it, at least here. We've interpreted Mimms to say that an officer can order a driver or passenger out of the car during a lawful stop regardless, and I'd imagine Texas is similar. The Supreme Court even doubled down in Maryland v. Wilson, including passengers in the rule and reaffirming drivers may be ordered from a vehicle for essentially any reason. Reasonable suspicion and/or probable cause are not required by the court for the order to be given.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:05
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Ok, so the cop pulled her over for a traffic violation and under the law, may ask her to exit the vehicle. She refused. What should he have done next?
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Jul 22, 2015 20:13
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:Ok, so the cop pulled her over for a traffic violation and under the law, may ask her to exit the vehicle. She refused. What should he have done next? He shouldn't have asked to begin with. He was only doing it to be a prick and exert authority over her. Yes it was legal. No, that doesn't make it right.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:15
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:Ok, so the cop pulled her over for a traffic violation and under the law, may ask her to exit the vehicle. She refused. What should he have done next? Call for backup and wait because she's not a danger to herself or others. Not threaten to use a taser on her. When backup arrives, use the fact that you have two police officers to more safely extract her from the car. Edit: Presuming you are dead-set on removing the woman from her car. The better answer would be "not have asked her in the first place" because backing down would be an even worse threat to your manhood
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Jul 22, 2015 20:15
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Realized that he didn't actually need to order her out of the vehicle, given her the ticket, and left. But I am not considering the part of our legal system where the legality of brutal methods to secure inconsequential ends means that anyone who disobeys lawful authority must be forced to comply.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:17
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Out of curiosity, is the only thing a cop can't do at a stop (without probable cause) is search the vehicle without consent?
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Jul 22, 2015 20:18
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mastershakeman posted:Out of curiosity, is the only thing a cop can't do at a stop (without probable cause) is search the vehicle without consent? If you refuse that's probable cause you're hiding drugs. And you better pick up the loving can when the officer tells you to.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:21
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SpeedGem posted:
What the gently caress.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:21
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Armani posted:What the gently caress. And of course: quote:As this mentally ill old man lay bleeding with his eyeball dangling onto his cheek, the officers explained to Capt. Anderson that no one saw anything, no one heard anything, and no one knew why Bradley’s eyeball was hanging by a thread. They committed crimes and got away yet again because they're cops.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:27
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Mulaney Power Move posted:Has anyone posted about the real problem yet? Changing lanes without signaling is bullshit and people need to stop driving so recklessly! You say this but I have had this argument before. When I went through the process to get my licence, in my state, it was not law to use your signal to change lanes. It had been on the books but removed due to "the difficulty in enforcing it". So I never learned it as a necessity. Going to other states and eventually when they changed the law to put it back on in my state of license, made for an aggravating time as it was not seen as necessary. The real issue in this thread is that most people just want an echo chamber of the word "racism" or "cops are bad" rather than actually look at whats wrong and discuss the issues. Then you have a handfull of posters who not only don't understand the laws, regulations and rights limiting their unrealistic solutions. There is a serious issue with policing. Its from the selection process of police academies, through training and then into the ranks all the way up. Thats on one side, the other side is this idiotic mouth breathing response by civilians when they feel wronged. Just a tip. Both sides need work, and are in the wrong. So lets look at the fixes: Training: Start with the selection process. I have been through it in the state of Florida, and eventually turned down the offered slot. It starts out with a 25 question test, then moves on to a personnel file not dissimilar to a military background check. What isn't in there? Mental health evaluation. But you do have to list every instance you have ever been associated with illegal drugs (including that one time you tried a joint). And they check, with a polygraph. They do ask if you are involved in hate groups. But thats a grey area because you only have to list those recognized by the alphabet agencies. The training its self obviously has issues. What is/where is the review process? What are the differences? Why is there not a universal program with add on/extended training for individual regions? How often is the training process updated? What are the watch dog groups who monitor this? Do they have them? Where are the records/why do they not exist? Local Level and up: Obviously the selection process. When we have an incident, there seems to be a trend where the officers involved have had issues before. If someone is coming in from a different agency, how is previous behavior or incidents looked at? Incidents, how are they reviewed? Who reviews them? Its fine if an agency has a review process, but any time you have a complaint filed, an agency/independent group outside of that unit should be doing the primary investigation. And it should not just focus on the incident, but the potential culture that led to it. Do you have one cop who did something wrong? Or is it a systemic problem inside of the unit its self? This is why it needs to be investigated by personnel outside of the unit. Add to this that every agency should have the ability, and be required to police the level below them. Cameras on dashes, body cams, a push to alter and create universal use of force regulations... On and on and on.... What about oversight committees? Watch dog groups? How effective are they? Why are they not? Whats the process to report abuse of power/excessive force/inappropriate conduct? Where dose it fail? There are a lot of questions there. And it needs to be addressed. This is discussion. Activism is trying to find the answers. Placing pressure on elected officials to work on these problems. But no. Posters here are going into GiP to pull out a post because... Well.. I am trying to tell them they need to think, rather than actually shout down debate and discussion on the topic. And as much as you echo chamber idiots want to argue... There is a big problem with how, specifically youth through the late twenties act towards cops. You know.. Like the guy who called all cops murderers in this thread. How about not being a gigantic two year old when you get pulled over? No? How about being reasonable when interacting with cops? No? How about just following lawful orders, and filing a complaint after. You know... Like adults should do. Does the complaint process not work? Well then. It sounds like that needs to be addressed.... Hmmmmm.. Maybe, maybe we should talk about that. Maybe if you want it to be fixed you should pressure your elected officials... This is discussion. Shouting "racist" at people who aren't just parroting your "all cops are bad" line is just being obnoxious children. Edit: Fixed sentence that had partial line deleted on accident. Genocide Tendency fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 20:28
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There are actually very good reasons you keep hearing "racist." (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 22, 2015 20:32
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SedanChair posted:There are actually very good reasons you keep hearing "racist." Great reply. Lets not actually discuss my post. Lets fall back on calling someone racist because thinking is hard. Fuckwit.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:38
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That man should not have put his eye socket in the cops fingers, no one wants to discuss that. Literal children.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:40
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Genocide Tendency posted:Great reply. Here's the thing about what you said in your post: You peppered these ideas with a bunch of questions about the status quo, which sound like good starting points for you to research the answers to those questions. But this is basically it: Better mental health screening: everyone in this thread thinks is a good idea Better leo training: everyone in this thread thinks is a good idea Outside review of police incidents: everyone in this thread thinks is a good idea (but some might say you have to destroy America to try it if you phrase it wrong) Better oversight: everyone in this thread thinks is a good idea (but some might say you have to destroy America to try it if you phrase it wrong) Those ideas are good ones, and I don't think you ever meant to imply they were the only things we need to fix either.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:47
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Genocide Tendency posted:How about not being a gigantic two year old when you get pulled over? No? How about being reasonable when interacting with cops? No? How about just following lawful orders, and filing a complaint after. You know... Like adults should do. I can act however the gently caress I want, it's not illegal to be an rear end in a top hat to anyone. Just because you have no problem with killers going around intimidating people, assaulting people and ruining people's lives doesn't mean it's the "adult" thing to do. It's the cowardly piece of poo poo thing to do, blame the victims all day and be a boot licking apologist for monsters who snap the second anyone doesn't bow to their power. Let me tell you a little story, my mother was pulled over on her way home from picking up my brother from work one day. She wasn't aware of it but a mix up with the video store resulted in a warrant for her arrest (nothing crazy, they just hosed up and marked a video as unreturned which resulted in late fees and eventually a warrant). She was pulled from her car(which was towed) and assaulted by police and then arrested. My 15 year old brother had to walk through the ghetto alone at night to get home. We had no idea what was going on and why they took her, my mother spent the weekend in jail. While she was there they fingered her rear end and vagina and made her strip and shower in front of strangers. She doesn't speak english very well and the whole time she was crying and didn't understand what was happening. People like you who think this kind of poo poo is ok, that "you should just comply" make me sick. The only reason you can justify your warped world view is because you've never been exposed to the reality of what was going on.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:48
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MariusLecter posted:That man should not have put his eye socket in the cops fingers, no one wants to discuss that. Literal children. Discussion: How did this happen? What was the situation that lead up to this? How did this obviously unstable person get a police badge? This thread: Grrrrr bark bark Cops are evil grrr bark bark... Honestly, I could probably reply to every post in this thread with: Genocide Tendency posted:Grrrrr bark bark Cops are evil grrr bark bark... And be a posting star. But yea. Instead I am telling people to actually think about the issue.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:50
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Genocide Tendency posted:Great reply. Blaming the victim is an awful policy, and in many cases, you have the police murdering a civilian before they even have a chance to interact with them positively or negatively. That's why people are calling you racist. In many circumstances, a white person will be an antagonistic rear end in a top hat to the police, even going to the point of drawing a gun or openly carrying a gun and not be killed for it. A black person will be killed on the flimsiest of pretenses regardless of how he or she acts. Blaming the victim for their behavior is bullshit. The onus is on the trained professional to properly handle the situation and not murder civilians out of spite.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:54
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Your high-minded "I'm so much smarter than everyone and above it all" schtick is old, boring, and has been done by people a lot smarter and more eloquent than you. That's why nobody is impressed. Your false equivocation is also really dumb. "Both sides need work, and are in the wrong." Yeah, not putting out a cigarette just because a cop tells you is just as bad as him ripping you out of a car and violently arresting you because he felt like it.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:54
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Genocide Tendency posted:Discussion: People are actually thinking about the issue. It is you that seems to be unable to do anything but complain about this thread and "wonder" why no one is as serious as you. Do you think the other officers that lied to cover up the assault should have lost their job? Been arrested for interfering with an investigation? What mechanisms do you think most realistic to ensure the outcome you propose?
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Jul 22, 2015 20:55
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Genocide Tendency posted:Discussion: If you wanted to, you could engage with the substantive posts made that actually do think about the issue, but you prefer to bark and growl back at the ones that bark and growl. For example, you never explained why you think it's good for a cop to slam someone's head into the ground when the person kicks the cop, if the cop could safely use a lower level of force. Care to engage with that? I'd note that most cops I know, not being nuts, would use whatever minimal level of force they could if they got kicked by a suspect, so this post isn't saying grr grr cops are bad grr.
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Jul 22, 2015 20:59
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Genocide Tendency posted:Great reply. If you think there aren't racist cops you are deluding yourself. Like there have been studies and investigations that show that us African-Americans are disproportionately targeted by police officers on a macro scale. This doesn't mean on the individual level that every single Cop is racist, but guess what. Cops and Unions that don't stand up to and challenge what is essentially an unwritten rule of Omerta, on other cops who report brutality, or who help in investigations on other cops that do screw up and act outside of the law or with unreasonable force. Do nothing to help the communities they serve as all it does is keep those dangerous cops on the street to continue to do harm. This is for all cops, Black, White, Latino, etc etc. If Cops actually started having to have some kind of accountability for brutality and outbursts(even better if it happens with those that don't get caught on tape and go viral), then it would happen less and those that would be a danger would at least have the thought that they aren't invincible so long as they are wearing that badge. And maybe try and deescalate a situation rather than blow it up because of a lack of "respect". Any person who has ever had a public facing job has probably had to deal with some form of disrespect, but only police officers are allowed(if not explicitly than implicitly) to dole out "justice" to those that disrespect them.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:00
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ElCondemn posted:I can act however the gently caress I want, it's not illegal to be an rear end in a top hat to anyone. No, but it is illegal to "delay" a cop, which is loving broad as poo poo, so it is best to just shut up, ask for a lawyer, and no consent to any searches.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:02
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nm posted:No, but it is illegal to "delay" a cop, which is loving broad as poo poo, so it is best to just shut up, ask for a lawyer, and no consent to any searches. Ah, so a Grizzly not a Brown Bear?
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Jul 22, 2015 21:03
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Trabisnikof posted:Ah, so a Grizzly not a Brown Bear? Just act like a Polar Bear and you'll be fine.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:04
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I think the most reasonable thing in the video was him asking her to put out her cigarette. If that was an unreasonable request in anyone's opinion, please tell me why.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:05
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:Ok, so the cop pulled her over for a traffic violation and under the law, may ask her to exit the vehicle. She refused. What should he have done next? Apparently, that's not the case: quote:AUSTIN – The state Department of Public Safety has found violations in the agency’s “procedures regarding traffic stops and the department’s courtesy policy” in the recent stop that resulted in the arrest of Sandra Bland in Waller County. Link
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