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Cyberball 2072
Feb 17, 2014

by Lowtax

drilldo squirt posted:

What the hell is in that dlc they are selling for 150 dollars? Who would buy that?

Like $300 worth of ships. Me (sometimes, I bought the big romulan launch pack and the big T6 launch pack, I feel I got value from ONE of those two.)

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Goat Pillager
Mar 1, 2013

LordCo posted:




Kind of "meh" on this one. Need a better head shot of Nbreeki.



Love it. You are a god amongst men LordCo.

Korgan
Feb 14, 2012


Cyberball 2072 posted:

Like $300 worth of ships. Me (sometimes, I bought the big romulan launch pack and the big T6 launch pack, I feel I got value from ONE of those two.)

It's not worth it currently because the game is pretty obviously in emergency milk-the-players-for-all-their-cash mode. Don't spend any real money on this game. The decline in quality with the latest few updates should be a huge warning bell. Play, have fun, torment pubs but for goodness' sake don't give them cash right now. If they somehow got the game back to the casual fun it was pre-Delta Rising then you'd be justified dropping a few bucks I guess.

drilldo squirt
Aug 18, 2006

a beautiful, soft meat sack
Clapping Larry

Cyberball 2072 posted:

Like $300 worth of ships. Me (sometimes, I bought the big romulan launch pack and the big T6 launch pack, I feel I got value from ONE of those two.)

That seems excessive.

Cyberball 2072
Feb 17, 2014

by Lowtax

Korgan posted:

It's not worth it currently because the game is pretty obviously in emergency milk-the-players-for-all-their-cash mode. Don't spend any real money on this game. The decline in quality with the latest few updates should be a huge warning bell. Play, have fun, torment pubs but for goodness' sake don't give them cash right now. If they somehow got the game back to the casual fun it was pre-Delta Rising then you'd be justified dropping a few bucks I guess.

Oh no, I agree, what I was trying to say was that around New Romulus there was enough game to make all those ships you got useful and fun to gently caress around with. I wasn't tired of the game then so having 11 odd ships at once to level through and gently caress with was great even if you ended up with a few dud ships. When the T6 pack came out so did the new upgrades path and all the other bullshit we pick apart daily. Since the updates ended up killing alts being a viable source of sidegrading fun having 9 new ships to gently caress with was far less enjoyable since it quickly became clear that I would end up picking the one decent ship out of the bunch and sticking with, where a month before it was still financially viable to have 8-10 duders of various factions all fully geared for endgame poo poo.

I in no way meant to imply that buying the Romulans pack or any other now holds value, I didn't feel like I'd misspent at the time. Also the prices on that stuff all went up after it launched. I paid more than I'd advise anyone spend on STO bu it totally wasn't 150 each. Also sadly, with the amount of STO I was playing back then I didn't have time for other games so to me dropping 100 or whatever on a game I know I'll play pretty much exclusively for the next 6-9 months doesn't sound too out of the question, but I've always been good at convincing myself into reckless spending and all kinds of buyers remorse.

PSA TIME
My Marvel Heroes and now Heroes of The Storm accounts are the same dangerous trap. Sure the game's free but so many 5 and 10 dollar characters later for a game that you can convince yourself has ENDLESS REPLAY VALUE! and you've spent wayyyyyyy more than the 60 something equally time killing as Oblivion or Street Fighter or whatever other game. F2P? Not even once kids! Its loving digital drugs and the first hit is free.

Cyberball 2072 fucked around with this message at 09:24 on Jul 24, 2015

Asimo
Sep 23, 2007


Yeah, ships in STO weren't that bad a thing as long as you looked at it like a deferred subscription fee. $25 every two or three months isn't that bad as gaming expenses go, and depending on which ship it was it could be a dramatic change in playstyle. And it was even less onerous if you bought dilithium with zen.

But then of course Delta Rising hit and they hosed that up by raising the price and obsoleting years of player ship purchases in one fell swoop. This cash grab was so amazingly blatant that it's what single handedly made most of my non-goon friends quit the game, and I can't really blame them. Or in other words,

Korgan posted:

Don't spend any real money on this game.

Aleth
Aug 2, 2008

Pillbug
Don't listen to them; buy all the ships! ALL OF THEM! The costumes too, buy those. :homebrew:

DAVE!!!(c)(tm)
Feb 22, 2003
I have never bought any of the multitude of ships I have with real money. All of it has been from dill converted to zen over time. I have never actually spent any real money in the zen store except for that one time I got really drunk and bought the 'gently caress You' boots.

Korgan
Feb 14, 2012


DAVE!!!(c)(tm) posted:

I have never bought any of the multitude of ships I have with real money. All of it has been from dill converted to zen over time. I have never actually spent any real money in the zen store except for that one time I got really drunk and bought the 'gently caress You' boots.

Listen to this man, he is playing the game correctly.

Drunk.

Coq au Nandos
Nov 7, 2006

I think I would say to my daughters if they were to ask me this question... A shitpost is the greatest gift that you can give someone, the ultimate gift of giving and don't give it to someone lightly, that's what I would say.

DAVE!!!(c)(tm) posted:

I have never bought any of the multitude of ships I have with real money. All of it has been from dill converted to zen over time. I have never actually spent any real money in the zen store except for that one time I got really drunk and bought the 'gently caress You' boots.

I've spent like $200 across the life of the game (been playing on and off since the beta) and regretted all but I think three purchases. The Vesta, the Scimitar and the Presidio were all worth it.

hakimashou
Jul 15, 2002
Upset Trowel
[3:49] [TheTradingChannel] Shot@Shotmonkey: God drat kemocite
[3:49] [TheTradingChannel] Shot@Shotmonkey: Soemone doubled all the prices again
[3:49] [TheTradingChannel] Shot@Shotmonkey: *Someone
[3:50] [System] You are no longer marked as idle.
[3:50] [TheTradingChannel] Druk@repetitiveepic: his name is "adam@smith"
[3:50] [TheTradingChannel] Shot@Shotmonkey: I dislike him already
[3:50] [TheTradingChannel] Druk@repetitiveepic: he's always manipulating the exchange prices, its awful
[3:51] [TheTradingChannel] Druk@repetitiveepic: he made plas leeches cost more than 80m now too
[3:51] [TheTradingChannel] Shot@Shotmonkey: It's obviously a completely legitimate practice
[3:51] [TheTradingChannel] Shot@Shotmonkey: but still
[3:51] [TheTradingChannel] Shot@Shotmonkey: gently caress that
[3:51] [TheTradingChannel] Druk@repetitiveepic: i think if enough people call him out on the forum the devs will do something
[3:51] [TheTradingChannel] Druk@repetitiveepic: like when they added the dance nullifiers
[3:52] [TheTradingChannel] Shot@Shotmonkey: I don't know what they could do about this though - you can't stop people buying and reselling
[3:52] [TheTradingChannel] Druk@repetitiveepic: its mainly that one guy though
[3:53] [TheTradingChannel] Druk@repetitiveepic: adam@smith, who sets all the high exchange prices
[3:55] [TheTradingChannel] Shot@Shotmonkey: As annoying as it is, he hasn't broken any rules - I don't think they can really do anything with justification

Coq au Nandos
Nov 7, 2006

I think I would say to my daughters if they were to ask me this question... A shitpost is the greatest gift that you can give someone, the ultimate gift of giving and don't give it to someone lightly, that's what I would say.

hakimashou posted:

[3:49] [TheTradingChannel] Shot@Shotmonkey: God drat kemocite
[3:49] [TheTradingChannel] Shot@Shotmonkey: Soemone doubled all the prices again
[3:49] [TheTradingChannel] Shot@Shotmonkey: *Someone
[3:50] [System] You are no longer marked as idle.
[3:50] [TheTradingChannel] Druk@repetitiveepic: his name is "adam@smith"
[3:50] [TheTradingChannel] Shot@Shotmonkey: I dislike him already
[3:50] [TheTradingChannel] Druk@repetitiveepic: he's always manipulating the exchange prices, its awful
[3:51] [TheTradingChannel] Druk@repetitiveepic: he made plas leeches cost more than 80m now too
[3:51] [TheTradingChannel] Shot@Shotmonkey: It's obviously a completely legitimate practice
[3:51] [TheTradingChannel] Shot@Shotmonkey: but still
[3:51] [TheTradingChannel] Shot@Shotmonkey: gently caress that
[3:51] [TheTradingChannel] Druk@repetitiveepic: i think if enough people call him out on the forum the devs will do something
[3:51] [TheTradingChannel] Druk@repetitiveepic: like when they added the dance nullifiers
[3:52] [TheTradingChannel] Shot@Shotmonkey: I don't know what they could do about this though - you can't stop people buying and reselling
[3:52] [TheTradingChannel] Druk@repetitiveepic: its mainly that one guy though
[3:53] [TheTradingChannel] Druk@repetitiveepic: adam@smith, who sets all the high exchange prices
[3:55] [TheTradingChannel] Shot@Shotmonkey: As annoying as it is, he hasn't broken any rules - I don't think they can really do anything with justification

I'm still trying to put together a wiki guide to non-standard/P2W boff abilities and kit modules, and after looking up pricing I'm pretty sure the only way to get one at this point is to befriedn a Wesley.

Aleth
Aug 2, 2008

Pillbug
To paraphrase the Wesleys: bootstraps, son.

DonDoodles
Aug 18, 2010

by general anime

LordCo posted:




Kind of "meh" on this one. Need a better head shot of Nbreeki.



hahah I still like it.

Also: Working on something new, and wondering if anyone's succeeded in making a convincing Xean clone in the character creator. Standard rules of OPSEC apply; let me know in-game or on mumble.

Morglon
Jan 13, 2010

Safe and sound, detached from reality.
Just like your posting.

DAVE!!!(c)(tm) posted:

I have never bought any of the multitude of ships I have with real money. All of it has been from dill converted to zen over time. I have never actually spent any real money in the zen store except for that one time I got really drunk and bought the 'gently caress You' boots.

That may very well be but someone is buying that Zen so just trading in Dil for it still means you're enabling that poo poo.

Edit: You probably also sold all your Star Citizen stuff to Reddit and made 80 bajillion dollars.

Morglon fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Jul 24, 2015

DAVE!!!(c)(tm)
Feb 22, 2003

Morglon posted:

That may very well be but someone is buying that Zen so just trading in Dil for it still means you're enabling that poo poo.

Edit: You probably also sold all your Star Citizen stuff to Reddit and made 80 bajillion dollars.


But I got mine. Suck it son.

g0del
Jan 9, 2001



Fun Shoe

drilldo squirt posted:

What the hell is in that dlc they are selling for 150 dollars? Who would buy that?
Me. But in my defense, I bought the DR pack when it first dropped before they'd made a lot of the horrible changes. Levelling was still pretty quick then. Also I bought it with money I made getting out of Star Citizen* so even if I write the DR pack off as a complete loss, I still came out slightly ahead on the whole thing. And the boffs from that pack are pretty good, especially for a Rom.



*I make bad economic decisions when it comes to digital space ships.

hakimashou
Jul 15, 2002
Upset Trowel
Zhaaaaaawn apparently downloaded a bunch of poo poo so he could use the vanilla forum feature cryptic neglected to implement and ignore us all. Which means he isn't able to flag any of our posts because he can't see them. Which also means to an ordinary observer, he appears be reading but not responding to anything we post. I am sure there is a way to leverage this to paint him in his true colors to anyone that stumbles across his autistic fleet thread.

Lagomorphic
Apr 21, 2008

AKA: Orthonormal
Had to mute another idiot in NoPPS today. Here's the relevant bits of the chatlog for posterity:

Another day in NoPPS posted:

[NoP Public Service] Scion@jazzmag: Anyone got a kemocite 1 manual they'll let go for a lot less than the exchange?

[NoP Public Service] Nero@zorg00: lol really?

[NoP Public Service] Nero@zorg00: why would anyone do that

[NoP Public Service] Scion@jazzmag: they're 200 million and they aint selling

[NoP Public Service] SmirkSmirk@Smellybeans: 200 mil?

[NoP Public Service] Slatek@dvborden: Is this a beg and trade channel now?

[NoP Public Service] Nero@zorg00: 200m is pocekt change to some players here

[NoP Public Service] Zae@lagomorphic: Hey all no buying or selling in this channel

[NoP Public Service] Scion@jazzmag: Nero are you going to sell me one?

[NoP Public Service] Kim@e24601: Also female, females are worth more

[NoP Public Service] Renovatio@felipestormhawk: no buying or selling, just asking for advice ;o

[NoP Public Service] Nero@zorg00: im not selling nor advertising on this channel

[NoP Public Service] Zae@lagomorphic: jazzmag, please stop btreaking the rules

[NoP Public Service] Scion@jazzmag: I merely asked a question

[NoP Public Service] SmirkSmirk@Smellybeans: I found some 5 mill one, called Kemocite Accidents, what do those give?

[NoP Public Service] Zae@lagomorphic: no you are trying to buy

[NoP Public Service] Vanos Alarem@goldenrodcity: Nowhere near

[NoP Public Service] Scion@jazzmag: of course

[NoP Public Service] Zae@lagomorphic: in a channel that is explicitely not for that

[NoP Public Service] Scion@jazzmag: did I state price?

[NoP Public Service] Scion@jazzmag: I merely asked and was flamed

[NoP Public Service] Zae@lagomorphic: because you are breaking the rules

[NoP Public Service] SmirkSmirk@Smellybeans: $_$ kemocite

[NoP Public Service] Scion@jazzmag: Who's rules?

[NoP Public Service] Natalie Rushman@czoleta: the channel's rules

[NoP Public Service] Zae@lagomorphic: the channel rules, anyways I tried to be nice and I am done argueing

[NoP Public Service] Gogu Spatzialu@goguspatzialu: kemocite = reason keys spiked, after all

[NoP Public Service] Korth@Tyrant76: yea

[NoP Public Service] Zae@lagomorphic: [System] Permissions for @jazzmag in "NoP Public Service" changed: Muted

[NoP Public Service] SmirkSmirk@Smellybeans: I see kemocite is really nice for faw :D heheh more dps :D

[NoP Public Service] Zae@lagomorphic: hope it was worth it

Lagomorphic
Apr 21, 2008

AKA: Orthonormal
Excerpt from the chatlog from last night's ESD zone chat. Xean has come forth and confirmed the rumors that he is a staunch LGBT-bigot. At this point I now consider Xtern1ty to be a hate-fleet and have suspended all aid efforts to the fleet indefinitely.

ESD Zone posted:

[Zone #5] Violence@crotch0311: Why can't someone light takei on fire
[Zone] Traci@rahhmi: why would anyone light takei on fire? he's awesome =O
[Zone] Traci@rahhmi: yeahhh I'm still not getting it
[Zone #18] Brinn Ezkar@taverse: Only homophobic people want to light Takei on fire.
[Zone] Traci@rahhmi: what's with you guys and setting fire to trek-actors?
[Zone #10] Kimberley@hampsterr: the spergs on esd are quick to advocate violence against things they dont like
[Zone] Traci@rahhmi: no wonder dental used fire suppression devices
[Zone #5] Violence@crotch0311: he's a gay supremecist that probably only came out of the closet because he didn't want to be forgotten
[Zone #25] Marauder@aphelionmarauder: spergs?
[Zone #22] Xean@xtern1ty: lol, can't agree more crotch, marauder... anyways got better things to do than watch trolls try to salvage their nonexistent respectability. off to do team with friends. keep up the good fight esd!

DonDoodles
Aug 18, 2010

by general anime

Lagomorphic posted:

Excerpt from the chatlog from last night's ESD zone chat. Xean has come forth and confirmed the rumors that he is a staunch LGBT-bigot. At this point I now consider Xtern1ty to be a hate-fleet and have suspended all aid efforts to the fleet indefinitely.

Hahaha that will never go away.

Berke Negri
Feb 15, 2012

Les Ricains tuent et moi je mue
Mao Mao
Les fous sont rois et moi je bois
Mao Mao
Les bombes tonnent et moi je sonne
Mao Mao
Les bebes fuient et moi je fuis
Mao Mao


The romulan pack back before Delta was a pretty good deal when on sale (which they did once or twice a year). Dozen ships, some costume stuff, then that was all made obsolete with Delta Rising. I don't think you even get free T5U tokens for your romulan ships if you buy it now.

And why bother when for the same amount of money you can just buy a DR pack and get a dozen T6 ships. A Bad Game.

Wizard of the Deep
Sep 25, 2005

Another productive workday
So, in other exciting Cryptic developments, it looks like Christine Thompson, AKA @Cryptic_Kestral, is dropping the Cryptic from her twitter handle. Here's @Salami_Inferno's send-off.

I'm honestly not sure if this is a good sign or a bad one. Is there anyone writing for STO besides her?

ETA: No front-page post, but there's a goodbye post on the STO forums.

Wizard of the Deep fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Jul 24, 2015

BombermanX
Jan 13, 2011

I'm afraid of other people's opinions when they differ from my own. Please do not hurt my feelings.

Lagomorphic posted:

Excerpt from the chatlog from last night's ESD zone chat. Xean has come forth and confirmed the rumors that he is a staunch LGBT-bigot. At this point I now consider Xtern1ty to be a hate-fleet and have suspended all aid efforts to the fleet indefinitely.

Should we post this in the xternity sto thread?

Tuskin38
May 1, 2013

Have you seen these posts?
They're pretty popular on Reddit.

Wizard of the Deep posted:

So, in other exciting Cryptic developments, it looks like Christine Thompson, AKA @Cryptic_Kestral, is dropping the Cryptic from her twitter handle. Here's @Salami_Inferno's send-off.

I'm honestly not sure if this is a good sign or a bad one. Is there anyone writing for STO besides her?

ETA: No front-page post, but there's a goodbye post on the STO forums.

crypticfrost left as well, he is her husband. He was QA and posted the tribble patch notes.

According to her it wasn't a layoff.

https://twitter.com/HelloKestrel/status/624704331577692160

Tuskin38 fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Jul 24, 2015

Preechr
May 19, 2009

Proud member of the Pony-Brony Alliance for Obama as President
Probably "creative differences."

Lagomorphic
Apr 21, 2008

AKA: Orthonormal

BombermanX posted:

Should we post this in the xternity sto thread?

I think posting chatlogs is against the rules. Also the whole naming and shaming thing. It's your account though, I'm not gonna tell you what to do.

Morglon
Jan 13, 2010

Safe and sound, detached from reality.
Just like your posting.

Wizard of the Deep posted:

So, in other exciting Cryptic developments, it looks like Christine Thompson, AKA @Cryptic_Kestral, is dropping the Cryptic from her twitter handle. Here's @Salami_Inferno's send-off.

I'm honestly not sure if this is a good sign or a bad one. Is there anyone writing for STO besides her?

ETA: No front-page post, but there's a goodbye post on the STO forums.

Tons of people quit or got fired fairly recently so yeah it's done.

CrushedWill
Sep 27, 2012

Stand it like a man... and give some back

Tuskin38 posted:

crypticfrost left as well, he is her husband. He was QA and posted the tribble patch notes.

According to her it wasn't a layoff.

https://twitter.com/HelloKestrel/status/624704331577692160

Smart move on their part. The longer they stay, the more sullied their resumes are and the harder it is to get other work in the industry.

Morglon
Jan 13, 2010

Safe and sound, detached from reality.
Just like your posting.
Meh, writers and QA are a dime a dozen already unless you're someone with a reputation people can make bank on.

CrushedWill
Sep 27, 2012

Stand it like a man... and give some back

Morglon posted:

Meh, writers and QA are a dime a dozen already unless you're someone with a reputation people can make bank on.

Especially good that they left then. Who the gently caress wants a dented box of cereal when there are undamaged ones to be had?

Morglon
Jan 13, 2010

Safe and sound, detached from reality.
Just like your posting.
Well again, it's writers and QA, the former never comes undamaged and the latter has seen some poo poo, man.

Tuskin38
May 1, 2013

Have you seen these posts?
They're pretty popular on Reddit.
https://twitter.com/CrypticEQAH/status/624739170301423620

Cryptic has openings.

Berke Negri
Feb 15, 2012

Les Ricains tuent et moi je mue
Mao Mao
Les fous sont rois et moi je bois
Mao Mao
Les bombes tonnent et moi je sonne
Mao Mao
Les bebes fuient et moi je fuis
Mao Mao


Well, starship troopers reference instills confidence.

Morglon
Jan 13, 2010

Safe and sound, detached from reality.
Just like your posting.
Well the alternative to that would be paying decently, not creating a hostile work environment and generally not being on the way out anyway.

drilldo squirt
Aug 18, 2006

a beautiful, soft meat sack
Clapping Larry
Someone explain how money works, so far I've found 4 different types.

Tuskin38
May 1, 2013

Have you seen these posts?
They're pretty popular on Reddit.

Berke Negri posted:

Well, starship troopers reference instills confidence.

I enjoyed those references.

drilldo squirt posted:

Someone explain how money works, so far I've found 4 different types.

This game has too many currencies.

Asimo
Sep 23, 2007


drilldo squirt posted:

Someone explain how money works, so far I've found 4 different types.
It doesn't, hth.

More seriously there's energy credits which is basically like gold in other games except for the fact it's only really useful for buying poo poo on the exchange. Then there's dilithium, which is used for the stuff you'd actually want to buy and can also be converted into cash shop currency. Which is Zen, and is bought with dilithium (or vice versa) or with cash money. And then there's a different type of mark for every reputation, which only really matters if you're leveling said reputation.

See, simple! :geno:

:rip: Cryptic

How many staff members does STO even have left? Is it more or less than like the two people still trying to pretend Champions Online is viable?

g0del
Jan 9, 2001



Fun Shoe

drilldo squirt posted:

Someone explain how money works, so far I've found 4 different types.
Off the top of my head, here are some of the moneys.
  • EC: Energy Credits. Large amounts are generally made by buying/selling on the auction house. Loot can be sold for EC, and various activities in the game cost EC, but the amounts are relatively small. Completely free players have a 10 million EC cap, you can buy an unlock from the z-store to make the cap 1,000,000,000 EC. This is enough for everyone except the Wesley's who complain about having to create more alts to hold all their ill-gotten gains.

  • Dil: Dilithium. Comes in 3 forms, ore, refined, and fleet-project only (given out by some Delta Recruit rewards). You can earn ore dil by doing various activities in the game, but it's useless in its ore form. The devs at various times have tried to make it so that earning 1,000 dil takes about 15 minutes no matter how you're doing it, but there are often faster ways to get it. You can refine 8,000 ore each day, turning it into refined dil which is useable for buying a lot of end-game equipment, along with upgrading equipment, contribiting to fleet projects, and a bunch of other stuff. Dil can also be traded for zen.

  • Zen: The pay2win money of the game. Zen can be bought with real money, at about 100 zen to the US dollar. Zen is used to buy things from the z-store (ships, account unlocks, keys to open lock boxes, etc.) Zen can also be used to buy refined dilithium.

  • GPL: Gold-Pressed Latinum, really only useful for silly cosmetic items and what used to be the best item in the game, the disco ball. You can play dabo a long time to slowly convert EC into GPL.

  • Reputation Marks: Borg, Romulan, Nukara, etc. These are earned by doing various end-game STFs and missions, and are used to fill reputation projects. Rep projects are used to increase your level in said reputation. Once you've maxed your rep level, the marks are used to buy reputation gear (you'll have to pay some some refined dil as well). Once you've bought everything you could possibly want with said marks, they can be traded for dil.

  • Fleet Marks: Earned by running some end-game STFs and missions, can only be used to fill fleet projects. Expect to never get rid of yours because everyone playing has thousands of them sitting around waiting for a chance to dump them into a fleet project. By this point even my contra alts are sitting on thousands of flarks.

  • Fleet Credits: Earned by filling fleet projects. Fleet credit is used to buy end-game gear/unlocks from the various fleet holdings. Of course, all the good stuff has dil costs too. It used to be really hard to earn large amounts of these, but the new Fleet Armada system should make this a lot easier Fed-side. The klank fleet isn't currently inviting any sub-fleets probably because Couch has given up on this dumb game.

  • Lobi: Lobi crystals come from lock boxes. You can find a few in certain missions when Cryptic is running a lobi weekend, but not enough to get anything useful. Lobi lets you buy from the lobi store, which contains various ships, petc, equipment, and a bunch of other stuff. Lobi isn't tradable, but most of the things you can buy with it are and can be found on the exchange.

Those are the main ones, but there are plenty more. The summer and winter events introduce several new currencies each tradable for ships and other event items. There's various reputation items which drop from advanced STFs which are only usable to buy reputation gear, epohh tags which can be traded for epohh pets which can be grown and then either kept as a pet or traded for marks, and probably a hundred more that I'm forgetting. The game has entirely too many currencies for its own good.

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Morglon
Jan 13, 2010

Safe and sound, detached from reality.
Just like your posting.
Well they have gecko gozering up the place, they have borticus and they have trendy so that's three at least.

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