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Are you a This poll is closed. |
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| homeowner |
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39 | 22.41% |
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69 | 39.66% |
| stupid peace of poo poo |
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66 | 37.93% |
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Vagabundo posted:But earlier on, you said people who commit assault should be deemed as tantamount to murderers. Why are you now trying to downplay domestic violence and literally assaulting pregnant women? Assault that causes serious physical or neurological disability, which in my opinion would be worse than dying. Not being punched outside a bar. Vagabundo posted:By specifically suggesting that anyone who you don't agree with enable sexual abuse. I see. I wasn't calling you a pedophile. but come on, that's a situation where forced forgiveness happens a lot.
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Jul 26, 2015 10:36
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Don't want this to get lost: You are specifically keying your entire system of justice to the easiest, most direct cases where the outcomes are known and the perpetrators clear. Have you ever served on a jury?
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Jul 26, 2015 10:37
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Somfin posted:Don't want this to get lost: Remember, I am suggesting a new standard of evidence (super guilty) that requires very clear perpetrators and no, no jury yet.
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Jul 26, 2015 10:39
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Infotainment! posted:Here's a clue: neither the punisher nor judge dredd are intended to be viewed as heroes. 4 more years
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Jul 26, 2015 10:40
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Cumslut1895 posted:Assault that causes serious physical or neurological disability, which in my opinion would be worse than dying. Not being punched outside a bar. And what, psychological trauma is a comparative walk in the park? Domestic violence and miscarriages both leave significant emotional and mental scars that can lead to mental illness, like PTSD. Or does that sort of thing not count?
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Jul 26, 2015 10:40
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Vagabundo posted:And what, psychological trauma is a comparative walk in the park? Domestic violence and miscarriages both leave significant emotional and mental scars that can lead to mental illness, like PTSD. Or does that sort of thing not count? Psychological damage is bad. It doesn't leave your trapped in a bed with food falling out of your mouth for 30 years.
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Jul 26, 2015 10:41
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Cumslut1895 posted:and no, no jury yet. You edited this from "a serious assault case where everyone was professional and logical" to "no." Which one is true?
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Jul 26, 2015 10:41
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Somfin posted:You edited this from "a serious assault case" to "no." I don't want to give too much about myself away, sorry. I did edit it. edit: no, I haven't
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Jul 26, 2015 10:42
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Cumslut1895 posted:Remember, I am suggesting a new standard of evidence (super guilty) that requires very clear perpetrators So does that then invalidate, in your opinion, executions carried out when the technology required to establish "super guilt" was largely unavailable?
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Jul 26, 2015 10:42
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Vagabundo posted:So does that then invalidate, in your opinion, executions carried out when the technology required to establish "super guilt" was largely unavailable? Yes. (and I know I said I'd support them earlier, but I would have considered a different set of evidence reliable if I lived back then) Super guilt requires *clear* images of the crime actually taking place, or multiple, good, accurate an unconnected witnesses (or DNA evidence in the case of rape)
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Jul 26, 2015 10:43
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Cumslut1895 posted:Psychological damage is bad. It doesn't leave your trapped in a bed with food falling out of your mouth for 30 years. So what, we've now got degrees of debilitation?
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Jul 26, 2015 10:44
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Cumslut1895 posted:(or DNA evidence in the case of rape) It's good to know that all rapes leave behind DNA evidence.
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Jul 26, 2015 10:44
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Vagabundo posted:So what, we've now got degrees of debilitation? Absolutely. A limp, compared to having no limbs?
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Jul 26, 2015 10:45
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Somfin posted:It's good to know that all rapes leave behind DNA evidence. ?? Not all murders generate photographic evidence or good witnesses??
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Jul 26, 2015 10:45
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Cumslut1895 posted:Yes. (and I know I said I'd support them earlier, but I would have considered a different set of evidence reliable if I lived back then) And said witnesses are then expected to carry out the executions, right? The fact that you've been cornered into shifting the goalposts over and over like this is rather telling.
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Jul 26, 2015 10:46
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Cumslut1895 posted:I'm saying that shaming people until they pretend to forgive someone is a tool used by the supporters of abusers Hammers are used by bad guys to hit people in the head, and they are used by builders making houses. The tool or method used can not imply intent of the wielder.
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Jul 26, 2015 10:46
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Vagabundo posted:And said witnesses are then expected to carry out the executions, right? I said that was dumb earlier. I also a higher standard of evidence was required earlier.
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Jul 26, 2015 10:47
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Cumslut1895 posted:?? Not all murders generate photographic evidence or good witnesses?? You've never been on a jury. You don't know what a good witness is.
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Jul 26, 2015 10:47
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Cumslut1895 posted:Absolutely. A limp, compared to having no limbs? Did you actually liken mental illness to a loving "limp?"
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Jul 26, 2015 10:47
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Cumslut1895 posted:Psychological damage is bad. It doesn't leave your trapped in a bed with food falling out of your mouth for 30 years. It can you know....
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Jul 26, 2015 10:48
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klen dool posted:Hammers are used by bad guys to hit people in the head, and they are used by builders making houses. The tool or method used can not imply intent of the wielder. That's a bigger stretch than comparing child abuse victims to rape victims or serious assault victims. Somfin posted:You've never been on a jury. You don't know what a good witness is. Sure. I admit that. klen dool posted:It can you know.... Yeah, I know. I guess that would probably fall under the same heading, if nothing could be done about it.
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Jul 26, 2015 10:49
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Cumslut1895 posted:Sure. I admit that. You have no idea how trials actually work, or what people base their decisions on. On a practical level.
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Jul 26, 2015 10:49
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Somfin posted:You have no idea how trials actually work, or what people base their decisions on. On a practical level. biases and pre-formed beliefs. If that is fundamentally unsound, we should probably shut down the whole jury system right now.
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Jul 26, 2015 10:50
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Cumslut1895 posted:I said that was dumb earlier. I also a higher standard of evidence was required earlier. And you also said you would have been calling for executions in the cases of Arthur Allan Thomas, David Bain, Teina Pora earlier, and that you're comfortable with the executions of , Ruth Ellis, Derek Bentley, Thomas Evans, Mahmood Mattan and Walter Bolton. Now you're trying to claim that you'd have wanted better evidence. Which is it?
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Jul 26, 2015 10:51
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Vagabundo posted:Did you actually liken mental illness to a loving "limp?" ...no, i said there are varying degrees of debilitation?
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Jul 26, 2015 10:52
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Cumslut1895 posted:biases and pre-formed beliefs. If that is fundamentally unsound, we should probably shut down the whole jury system right now. You do realise there is an entire jury screening system in place, right?
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Jul 26, 2015 10:52
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Somfin posted:You have no idea how trials actually work, or what people base their decisions on. On a practical level. Or on a non-practical level, either. Cumslut should try calling up a psychologist and see what they think about his "People are inherently, naturally, and rightly given to violent revenge in order to heal from a traumatic loss" hypothesis.
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Jul 26, 2015 10:52
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Cumslut1895 posted:...no, i said there are varying degrees of debilitation? So when you were trying to downplay the debilitating effect of trauma and mental illness on the people that suffer from it, what were you trying to actually say, then?
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Jul 26, 2015 10:54
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Cumslut1895 posted:biases and pre-formed beliefs. If that is fundamentally unsound, we should probably shut down the whole jury system right now. This is immediately what you jump to? I have been on a jury, in case you are wondering. A historical sexual assault case. It gave me a lot of insight into why the system works the way it does.
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Jul 26, 2015 10:55
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Vagabundo posted:And you also said you would have been calling for executions in the cases of Arthur Allan Thomas, David Bain, Teina Pora earlier, and that you're comfortable with the executions of , Ruth Ellis, Derek Bentley, Thomas Evans, Mahmood Mattan and Walter Bolton. Now you're trying to claim that you'd have wanted better evidence. Which is it? I probably should have read those more closely, they're all pretty lovely cases, even with the framing. none of them had 'super guilt', other than Ruth Ellis (Derek Bentley wasn't really even a murderer) edit: Rollofthedice posted:Or on a non-practical level, either. Cumslut should try calling up a psychologist and see what they think about his "People are inherently, naturally, and rightly given to violent revenge in order to heal from a traumatic loss" hypothesis. yeah, i'll introduce myself that way too Additional edit: I think a lot of people may decide to not press for execution* which would probably empower them the same way (since they're in charge of making the decision) * this could probably be seen as forgiveness I guess. Cumslut1895 fucked around with this message at 10:58 on Jul 26, 2015 |
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Jul 26, 2015 10:55
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Vagabundo posted:So when you were trying to downplay the debilitating effect of trauma and mental illness on the people that suffer from it, what were you trying to actually say, then? that it's better than being beaten into having Locked In Syndrome?
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Jul 26, 2015 10:56
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Somfin posted:This is immediately what you jump to? How much did people stick to the law in deciding stuff?
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Jul 26, 2015 10:59
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Cumslut1895 posted:That's a bigger stretch than comparing child abuse victims to rape victims or serious assault victims. I don't understand your point. Tools are not good or bad, the intent of the person using the tool is what matters.
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Jul 26, 2015 11:02
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klen dool posted:I don't understand your point. Tools are not good or bad, the intent of the person using the tool is what matters. Some tools are bad. Unless you think genocide or rape have good uses, which I don't think you do. Edit: That wasn't a great answer. Shaming child abuse victims into pretending everything is fine isn't all that different from shaming rape victims into pretending everything is fine.
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Jul 26, 2015 11:03
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Cumslut1895 posted:I probably should have read those more closely, they're all pretty lovely cases, even with the framing. 1. So you're arguing that a victim of physical abuse deserved to die for gunning down her abuser, without considering any mitigating factors involved like the psychological damage caused by her abuser's actions - which earlier you conceded, oh so graciously, that could maybe be considered akin to physical or neurological damage. 2. You didn't answer the question. Cumslut1895 posted:that it's better than being beaten into having Locked In Syndrome? "Oh too bad that you're suffering from PTSD, but hey, get over it! It could be worse, right?" gently caress off.
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Jul 26, 2015 11:05
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Vagabundo posted:1. So you're arguing that a victim of physical abuse deserved to die for gunning down her abuser, without considering any mitigating factors involved like the psychological damage caused by her abuser's actions - which earlier you conceded, oh so graciously, that could maybe be considered akin to physical or neurological damage. I admit, her case does have some pretty massive mitigating factors ( another example would be someone in a fairly mutual fight and kills someone with a lucky blow) they should probably be factored in. and PTSD could be so much worse. I'm not trying to belittle the victims of it. at least you can still remember things and talk and you aren't just trapped edit: I'd have wanted better evidence, (except for Ruth Ellis who is Super Guilty)
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Jul 26, 2015 11:08
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You guys aren't getting all D&D in this thread are you?
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Jul 26, 2015 11:09
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echinopsis posted:You guys aren't getting all D&D in this thread are you? nah, just casual rugby chat
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Jul 26, 2015 11:10
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Wow, we have all been busy beavers today.Cumslut1895 posted:Remember, I am suggesting a new standard of evidence (super guilty) that requires very clear perpetrators There could literally be no such thing as super guilty. The ringleader had the bat in his hand, he beat that guy until he stopped twitching, but there is not a doubt in my mind that he did not set out to commit murder. Even a case as clean-cut as a guy getting in a car to go and beat another guy up with a baseball is impossible to super-prove murder because it requires intent, it requires proving that he knew his actions would result in murder rather than just being a series of in-the-heat poor decisions that ended up with a lethal weapon in the hands of an angry child trying to deal with his emotions as best he could in the only way his environment had ever taught him to. The standards of proof are already so super-high that all you need to do is argue that there's a single feasible alternative for what happened. Prison isn't about punishment, and it isn't about rehabilitation. Prison is about maintaining society in the face of uncontrollable human chaos. It can be both punishing and rehabilitating but the key purpose it must serve is it allows victims to feel safer both while criminals are imprisoned and after their release. It is uncontroversially widely accepted that it does not serve as a deterrent, regardless of how punitive it is, because crimes are by nature irrational acts. Being in prison sucks balls - a lot of people live lives comfortable enough not to have to realise how much it sucks balls whether you're getting gym equipment or Sky Sports. It is literally psychologically traumatic to the point where people who serve long sentences often no longer know how to even function properly once they get out. The purpose of rehabilitation is not to improve criminals' lives, it's to make the criminal safer once they're released by trying to change their position in society from what it was when they committed the crime, so that when they go back into the community they have something to pursue other than their previous course. It is abhorrent that we have a society that generally believes criminals lives must not simply be taken away from them, but that they must be actively made to suffer for as long as possible, often for a crime no simpler than having a lovely life in the first place. Certainly even Norway agrees that prisoners don't need PS3s, but I would much rather we lean more on that side of the punishment/rehabilitation false dichotomy than the one where we cut off the hands of thieves. Peace out.
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Jul 26, 2015 11:11
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Ghostlight posted:
that is loving insane to me. Can I shoot someone, set them on fire then bury them without having wanted to actually kill them? Has anyone ever tried to commit murder? this just seems insanely idealistic. I don't think the rest of the car was really guilty, though. the guy with the bat made his choice. I've been very, very angry before in my life. I could probably have hurt someone. but instead of doing that, I left. I made the choice. He could have too. Cumslut1895 fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Jul 26, 2015 |
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Jul 26, 2015 11:13
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