|
They came, and they tore something from us
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2015 22:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 09:12 |
|
|
David Corbett posted:The entire west coast? For the love of God, how? Not a chance Japan could have come close to taking the West Coast. Believe it or not the United States was prepared for a Japanese attack. Now one could argue that they could have taken Hawaii during Pearl Harbor, and they probably could. That is if they managed to sail a slow moving invasion force to Hawaii without detection, and then were willing to let that invasion force either and die on an island they could not possibly keep in supply, even if the Japanese had succeeded bagging the American carriers at Pearl Harbor. Basically the Japanese would need to have been willing to lose two or three divisions in transit for an opportunity to leave those divisions to die so they could deny Hawaii to the Americans for a year. Given the historical outcome this would also have meant keeping the U.S. From salvaging rather useless battleships. Most likely this would have meant having to forgo the invasion of the Philippines as well... So all in all, I think not invading Hawaii was a strategically sound decision on the part of the Japanese.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2015 22:47
|
|
|
I mean, I know what you're saying, but leaving divisions to fight to the death is hardly atypical in Japanese military strategy now, is it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2015 23:34
|
|
|
Pakled posted:I'm guessing 7 and 3 mean the Seven Warring States and Three Kingdoms. That, along with it being an original IP, means China game. Oh snap
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 07:24
|
|
|
Even with a dedicated China game, they'll still totally screw up the China AI :-/
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 07:32
|
|
|
ZombieLenin posted:Not a chance Japan could have come close to taking the West Coast. Believe it or not the United States was prepared for a Japanese attack. There was absolutely no chance of the Japanese taking Pearl. People seem to forget that the Japanese made most of their early war gains against lightly defended areas. When they came up against serious opposition they usually failed (Singapore being the big outlier here). invading Hawaii would require an opposed landing on the level of d-day, across thousands of miles of open ocean. It would have been an absolute disaster for the Japanese fleet and would most assuredly not delayed the war by a year but shortened it by two.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 09:25
|
|
|
Pakled posted:I'm guessing 7 and 3 mean the Seven Warring States and Three Kingdoms. That, along with it being an original IP, means China game. That would certainly explain why the Paradox devs here had no idea why 7 and 3 were relevant, Eurocentrists as they are.  (I kid, I kid)
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 09:29
|
|
|
Slime Bro Helpdesk posted:Even with a dedicated China game, they'll still totally screw up the China AI :-/
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 09:36
|
|
|
ArchangeI posted:There was absolutely no chance of the Japanese taking Pearl. People seem to forget that the Japanese made most of their early war gains against lightly defended areas. When they came up against serious opposition they usually failed (Singapore being the big outlier here). invading Hawaii would require an opposed landing on the level of d-day, across thousands of miles of open ocean. It would have been an absolute disaster for the Japanese fleet and would most assuredly not delayed the war by a year but shortened it by two. to be honest it's not like anyone could do those things when the Japanese were doing amphibiou landing like crazy. doing amphibious landings against highly fortified areas only became possible when the U.S. started dedicating ridiculous amounts of resources into it. It's not an easy task.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 11:46
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:I don't care, as long as my ninjas get a bonus to fighting in bamboo forests. I'm assuming geishas will dominate early game urban combat?
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 12:59
|
|
|
ArchangeI posted:There was absolutely no chance of the Japanese taking Pearl. People seem to forget that the Japanese made most of their early war gains against lightly defended areas. When they came up against serious opposition they usually failed (Singapore being the big outlier here). invading Hawaii would require an opposed landing on the level of d-day, across thousands of miles of open ocean. It would have been an absolute disaster for the Japanese fleet and would most assuredly not delayed the war by a year but shortened it by two. Also, Singapore wasn't as heavily defended as intially expected, turns out, losing your intiative, is a pretty big step towards losing just about everything.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 13:31
|
|
|
Schlesische posted:I'm assuming geishas will dominate early game urban combat? Actually they won't be in there, Japan will be a DLC.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 13:51
|
|
|
RagnarokZ posted:Also, Singapore wasn't as heavily defended as intially expected, turns out, losing your intiative, is a pretty big step towards losing just about everything. Also all its defences pointed at the sea instead of at Malaysia.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 14:00
|
|
|
ArchangeI posted:There was absolutely no chance of the Japanese taking Pearl. People seem to forget that the Japanese made most of their early war gains against lightly defended areas. When they came up against serious opposition they usually failed (Singapore being the big outlier here). invading Hawaii would require an opposed landing on the level of d-day, across thousands of miles of open ocean. It would have been an absolute disaster for the Japanese fleet and would most assuredly not delayed the war by a year but shortened it by two. The Japanese did face fairly strong forces in both Malaya and the Philippines, but they were operating close to their own bases and even then they had good luck, surprise, and audacity working for them. MacArthur bungled the defense of the Philippines and allowed himself to be corralled into Bataan and Percival was thoroughly outmaneuvered. That all being said, the possibility of a successful Japanese invasion of Hawaii was remote. The raid itself was a stretch, and the closest Japanese base at the start of the war was Kwajalein. There's no way they could have done a sustained campaign in Hawaii.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 14:18
|
|
|
And against the bungling MacArthur the Japanese still had to fight a protracted siege because they couldn't beat him in a pitched battle.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 15:58
|
|
|
Ofaloaf posted:Only if it covers the full battleship era and I can just build the Great White Fleet over and over again. I would buy a million copies of this. Paradox, not your thing, but if you remade Fighting Steel or a better WWI naval game than Jutland! I might turn gay for you.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 18:17
|
|
|
ArchangeI posted:There was absolutely no chance of the Japanese taking Pearl. People seem to forget that the Japanese made most of their early war gains against lightly defended areas. When they came up against serious opposition they usually failed (Singapore being the big outlier here). invading Hawaii would require an opposed landing on the level of d-day, across thousands of miles of open ocean. It would have been an absolute disaster for the Japanese fleet and would most assuredly not delayed the war by a year but shortened it by two. No, I totally agree with this in every respect. I guess I was implying that if they magically delivered the invasion force, my impression is that the level of surprise was so total at Pearl Harbor, and the resistance so piecemeal and disorganized, they might have taken the islands. However, they didn't have the logistical capacity to do it and... Westminster System posted:I mean, I know what you're saying, but leaving divisions to fight to the death is hardly atypical in Japanese military strategy now, is it. You're forgetting the part where you replace the fast moving strike force given the task of surprise attack, with a slow moving giant lump of cargo and troop carriers plus landing craft. Remember during D-Day the allies merely had to cross the English Channel, not thousands of miles of ocean. That and the Japanese would have to give up their more immediate and pressing goals of seizing the Philippines, Singapore and Dutch oil for the off chance that their slow invasion fleet makes it across the pacific, achieves total surprise such that they could overrun Pearl. With hindsight, you might say "well they did achieve that level of surprise," but the Japanese had no idea about how successful the attack would be.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 18:27
|
|
|
Regarding Japan invading American territory during World War 2, don't forget about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleutian_Islands_Campaign
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 18:38
|
|
|
Specifically both Singapore and the Philippines were underneath the umbrella of Japanese land-based aircraft, which sealed their fate as much as any other mistake Percival and MacArthur made.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 19:15
|
|
|
ZombieLenin posted:I would buy a million copies of this. Paradox, not your thing, but if you remade Fighting Steel or a better WWI naval game than Jutland! I might turn gay for you. Like someone said, check out Rule the Waves. It is literally Jacky Fisher's Pro Battleship Design Simulator 2015.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 19:54
|
|
|
ArchangeI posted:Like someone said, check out Rule the Waves. It is literally Jacky Fisher's Pro Battleship Design Simulator 2015. Is there actually content other than design. Not that it matters. With the current state of historical naval sims, I'd take that all day long. ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Jul 25, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 20:13
|
|
|
ZombieLenin posted:Is there actually content other than design. Not that it matters. With the current state of historical naval sims, I'd take that all day long. Well, you build fleets and then you fight wars with them and then you ragequit because some 500 ton destroyer slipped up to your 48,000 ton superdreadnought with 16" guns in the middle of a night battle and put three torpedoes into it. And then you make a new design with added torpedo protection, tell the British to come and have a go if they think they're hard enough and tell the government to give you more money because the British are somehow kinda ticked off at you. Discussion thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3731563 (currently debating whether the Battlecruiser was a good idea or not) Let's Play: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3731619 (currently simulating a naval board run by schizophrenics)
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 20:26
|
|
|
RTW is really good, listen to these posters!
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 21:14
|
|
|
Enjoy posted:I can imagine Johan tentatively opening Dom4 for the first time and then breaking down crying, "is this really what my games are like?!" It lasted for 10 mins before ragequit over poo poo ui.
|
|
#
?
Jul 25, 2015 22:26
|
|
|
pdxjohan posted:It lasted for 10 mins before ragequit over poo poo ui. The 20 minutes everyone who's ever started a HOI3 game and needed as a first task to sort out the OOB would like a word with you.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2015 00:38
|
|
|
Twenty minutes seems a bit on the low side.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2015 09:50
|
|
|
dunno about HoI3 but while playing an MP game of Arsenal of Democracy a friend of mine was playing as the USSR and turned the option to automatic assign leaders off and he couldn't understand why i was laughing so hard when he took almost an entire hour re-organizing the entire armed forces of the USSR at the start of the game. he was so mad when he realized that he had to check his entire army after the purges all over again 
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2015 13:33
|
|
|
I can't understand the appeal of dom4, like johan said, the ui is so confusing.  Of course this is similar to my hoi3 problem so...
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2015 18:45
|
|
|
Hitlers Gay Secret posted:I can't understand the appeal of dom4, like johan said, the ui is so confusing. I got into dom3 about the same time as Vicky:Rev, and the UI is bad in both. And Dom4 has such a huge amount of depth available its really rewarding to get past that UI boundary.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2015 18:58
|
|
|
Hitlers Gay Secret posted:I can't understand the appeal of dom4, like johan said, the ui is so confusing. It's a great game (for MP only) but it hasn't got past early 90s concepts of game balance and UI design. And it's better in both of those respects than dom 3 so they're learning, extremely slowly! 
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2015 20:38
|
|
|
Hitlers Gay Secret posted:I can't understand the appeal of dom4 It's Really GOod  
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2015 21:51
|
|
|
The appeal of the Dominions series, at least in part, is the mechanical obtuseness of the games. It's a sort of exploration game that doesn't involve maps or a hunger meter. Figuring out what works, what doesn't work, and how to make a ferrari out of two planks of wood and pile of leaves. Doesn’t forgive the gui/interface, though. What-if's of mad ex-gods fighting hydras fighting cthulhu fighting werewolf Vikings fighting the Undead Legions of Not-Rome fighting ghost elves fighting sunblind cave-dwelling giants fighting yogi monkeys fighting titans armed with four different magical swords fighting researchers-who-have-grown-so-old-that-they're-now-dying-of-disease-but-have-bombs-strapped-to-them fighting one of the developer's D&D parties fighting Pan and his army of charmed virgins fighting shark-riding aquaknights fighting dragons fighting giant man-eating frogs fighting blood-sacrificing demons whilst some rear end in a top hat researches the "wish" spell, casts it ten times and types Armageddon into the box every time whilst the literal holy grail passes through the hands of a dozen pretender gods... are just a sideshow. It's really about a dozen EXTREMELY CONFUSED people violently trying to figure out which of them is the luckiest by means of social engineering. Sometimes one of them figures out a mechanic like massing archers works really well when you have access to air mages and spells that call the winds themselves to make your arrows strike true. For one turn. Because next turn the enemy lobotomises all your mages from halfway across the world and everyone subsequently starts every battle by throwing up tempestual winds that batter aside every projectile as a matter of course. The person who eventually wins is usually the one who schmoozed the most backroom deals with everyone else. There are thousands of different units and the game tracks the age and individual limb health of even your weakest chaff of a solider. Battles can be lost (in an extreme example) by having a few guys at the front of an army develop limps and thereby block your crucial charge. It's fantastic, frustrating and hilarious. It's also about as far opposite from the PDS style of 'accessible grog' games as you can get. If you get annoyed at having insufficient control of your heirs in CK2 then Dom 3/4 is a game that would quickly send you up a clock tower. "Knife fighting in a phone booth" really is the best description of the game, but implies that people actually know what they're doing because sticking someone with the pointy end is actually pretty simple concept. Really, none of them should be sober, and at least two of the dozen crammed in there should be missing a limb... whilst one has a tazer and another a hand grenade without the pin. (Also by the time the really crazy stuff starts to come up the game is probably over because people get burned out on 'obviously being behind' way too easily... which is why the best way to enjoy the series is either through a let's play or drunk blitz games (5 minute turns instead of one-per-week-that-inevitably-gets-extended-to-two-weeks) on VoIP.) Really, it’s a lot like Dragon Pass, Cannon Fodder, Syndicate, Dungeon Keeper, Magic Carpet, Master of Orion and the box full of magic blue smoke in the back of your computer – a fantastic spectacle that just doesn’t work anymore when someone tries to take it apart, figure out how it works, and then put it back together. Not that I wouldn't love to see a flagship paradox game that was fantasy or sci-fi.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2015 23:47
|
|
|
I feel like Dominions actually COULD be a lot easier to pick up with a more user friendly UI and clearer in-game documentation. It's very hard to figure out what your long term strategy should be because it's not really clear what half the poo poo you can research will actually do for you, and building armies is generally a pain because of the need to manually queue up every single unit (or summon) you want to build, and then assign all those units to a commander, arrange your squads and orders, etc. The basic thrust of the game is pretty standard 4X stuff and isn't really that hard to wrap your head around conceptually. The game just has a lot of artificial barriers making it harder for a new player to figure that out. It's also pretty horribly unbalanced. Which isn't unexpected given the sheer breadth of content, but like it's not even TRYING to be balanced. It's basically a game of whose favorite exploit will go off first. Nullkigan posted:(Also by the time the really crazy stuff starts to come up the game is probably over because people get burned out on 'obviously being behind' way too easily This is a pretty typical 4X problem though - it's easy to get beaten into the ground so badly that you can't realistically recover, and have it happen WELL before the game actually ends. For a single player game it's annoying but you can just quit and start a new game, but in a MP game it doesn't end until EVERYONE is out. Dominions at least has the option of just conceding and going AI so that you don't hold up the game for the rest of the players, but it would be better if there were comeback mechanics or more incentives for multiple smaller players to work together to take out a larger power to keep them invested even if someone else is way out in front. The Cheshire Cat fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Jul 27, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2015 01:04
|
|
|
One of the big problems in Dom4 is that the phase where the craziest stuff happens is also a micromanagement hell of trying to shuffle wizards around and blood slaves and so many individual characters, many of whom are not interchangable. It gets ridiculous. The UI has been improved for the basic build troops-attack troops, but all the stuff that makes dom, well, dom, is hellish to try and play.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2015 01:16
|
|
|
Panzeh posted:One of the big problems in Dom4 is that the phase where the craziest stuff happens is also a micromanagement hell of trying to shuffle wizards around and blood slaves and so many individual characters, many of whom are not interchangable. It gets ridiculous. The UI has been improved for the basic build troops-attack troops, but all the stuff that makes dom, well, dom, is hellish to try and play. Yeah it's stuff like that where some level of automation would make things a lot nicer without taking anything away from the depth of the game. Just being able to set some kind of minimum gem/slave count on your wizards (so they'll automatically refill to that number whenever they're able to) would be a huge boon. There's really nothing gained by having to hand all that poo poo out manually every time.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2015 01:22
|
|
|
pdxjohan posted:It lasted for 10 mins before ragequit over poo poo ui. That's like the time you complained about bad AI in Total War games.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2015 06:38
|
|
|
To be fair all of the Paradox titles so far are more intended to be MP even though the older ones are insanely, ridiculously broken over regular Internet
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2015 06:40
|
|
|
Does anyone have any suggestions on good (and I'll put intellectually accessible as part of good) books on Austria, The Hapsburgs and the rise and fall of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2015 12:13
|
|
|
I had a dream that the new title turned out to be a WWE Management game. I was pretty disappointed at the time but I'm warming up to the idea.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2015 12:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 09:12 |
|
|
Fuligin posted:I had a dream that the new title turned out to be a WWE Management game. I was pretty disappointed at the time but I'm warming up to the idea.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2015 12:48
|
|