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Here's a handy cheat sheet: The closeup of Mami's boobs? Titillation, the "bad" (though that's debatable) kind of sexualization Homura's devil outfit? A character expressing her sexuality in-universe in a way consistent with her character, the "good" kind of sexualization Please nobody write an effortpost on how this analysis is incredibly simplistic and there's shades of gray, I don't think Lord Justice could withstand it.
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Jul 28, 2015 02:23
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sorry, but you have noticed an example of sexualisation in madoka, which goes against shafts vision for the series, this makes you a paedophile
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Jul 28, 2015 02:26
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Namtab posted:sorry, but you have noticed an example of sexualisation in madoka, which goes against shafts vision for the series, this makes you a paedophile Foils, you saw through my agenda to turn everyone who watches this deep show which exists solely for the sake of pure art into a pedophile.
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Jul 28, 2015 02:28
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there are two possibilities: 1) madoka magica is just a dumb cartoon 2) it is a peerless work of art so pure in its majesty that we mere mortals have corrupted it. like pearls before swine, we cannot comprehend its beauty. ume aoki has ruined it. i have ruined it. you, have ruined it.
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Jul 28, 2015 02:29
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also i'm going to blow your mind, but the merchandise madoka magica was designed to sell... was the characters. it's the same as, say, a sports anime with a ton of hot guys. the merchandise doesn't just happen. the characters were crafted to have appealing designs and personalities that could sell merchandise.
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Jul 28, 2015 02:30
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Endorph posted:also i'm going to blow your mind, but the merchandise madoka magica was designed to sell... was the characters. 
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Jul 28, 2015 02:32
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shinbo loves sex and also nudity
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Jul 28, 2015 02:33
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Davincie posted:Ume loves sex and also wideface
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Jul 28, 2015 02:33
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Same, to both
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Jul 28, 2015 02:35
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quote:You're misconstruing what I said. I've acknowledged the existence of merchandising for Madoka, my point is that Madoka is not designed around the merchandise. You're wrong. The visual design, characters, costumes, and music are totally designed around being marketable products. Since anime is an audiovisual medium that counts as "being designed around the merchandise". Kyubei is merchandising gold, that didn't just happen. And I mention kb specifically because it is an asexual blob so there are no sexuality issues with it... for most non-kyubeisexuals. Lord Justice posted:I still don't agree with the distinction between high and low art. Art is art, and the judgement of it is subjective. As well, the argument that Madoka exists to make money is absurd, because of course it is. A majority of art created in a capitalist system is designed to generate revenue, that will always be part of the creation of it. Since this is the case, I don't feel it's relevant as an argument, because it's going to affect most art in totality. If we're going to apply the reasoning of revenue generation to art as a delegitimizing action, then most of art created in our society is delegitimized automatically. You're right, the distinction between high/low art is not useful here. Anyways, I guess you would agree that there is fine art, which has the purpose of expressing the creativity and ideas of the author to engage the audience on a more than superficial level, and commercial "art" which will compromise its artistic view to generate revenue, right? Well, madoka is part of the later. Lord Justice posted:To me, sexualization is pretty much universally negative, You have some issues with sex dude. Also, I'm totally calling you out on your bullshit quote:Madoka is that it is seperate from your typical Seinen Mahou Shoujo, it never relied on merchandising... Bullshit! trucutru fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Jul 28, 2015 |
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Jul 28, 2015 02:37
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Madoka just did well through story strength alone, and did not need appealing looking characters designed around certain cliches.
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Jul 28, 2015 02:39
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Namtab posted:What other seinen mahou shoujo even exists Angel Blade
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Jul 28, 2015 02:39
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trucutru posted:Angel Blade
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Jul 28, 2015 02:40
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Sexualization and sexuality are two different things. To me, sexualization equals the objectification of women, which in turn delegitimizes a character because they become objects. This is the problem with Demon Homura's outfit, in that it is delegitimizing Homura (albeit in a minor fashion). The outfit could have been made differently, while retaining the principles already expressed by Space Flower and others.trucutru posted:You're wrong. The visual design, characters, costumes, and music are totally designed around being marketable products. Since anime is an audiovisual medium that counts as "being designed around the merchandise". Kyubei is merchandising gold, that didn't just happen. And I mention kb specifically because it is an asexual blob so there are no sexuality issues with it... for most non-kyubeisexuals. And I would contend that the designs serve other functions, such as Mami's European gunner look. As well, they look the way they do because this is still Mahou Shoujo, it is still applying those concepts, which by extension makes the designs marketable, even if the anime itself isn't marketing them to anything. trucutru posted:You're right, the distinction between high/low art is not useful here. Anyways, I guess you would agree that there is fine art, which has the purpose of expressing the creativity and ideas of the author to engage the audience on a more than superficial level, and commercial "art" which will compromise its artistic view to generate revenue, right? Well, madoka is part of the later. Madoka is very clearly part of the former. Madoka is a screed against wish fulfillment, following in the footsteps of its predecessor Fate/Zero, among many other artistic works too long to list here. It is designed to express this idea with its characters and themes, and engage with the audience through deep emotional conveyance. Madoka is, for all intents and purposes, a masterwork of design, writing, animation and music. Just because it is mired in otaku or capitalist culture does not change this fact, I do not decry the existence of the merchandise because it does not matter and has no bearing on the quality of the original work. This is what I mean by Madoka not relying on its merchandise, it does not need it to do what it set out to do or achieve what it did. Madoka is a masterpiece with or without the inclusion of outside revenue generation. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Jul 28, 2015 |
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Jul 28, 2015 02:59
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Lord Justice posted:even if the anime itself isn't marketing them to anything. It is marketing them to its audience. What else do you want? like seriously, goddamn your analysis and arguments are dumb. Lord Justice posted:Madoka is very clearly part of the former. You have activated my trap card! and... errr, dude, they changed the ending of rebellion at the last freaking minute in order to leave it open for another film. That masterwork ending you have been jizzing about? it is just a product of the most pragmatic non-artistic commercialism. Madoka is very clearly part of the later. You can say whatever else you want, but that one is a fact. Edit: I'll take you on your word that it happened early in the writing process. Thanks. It was still done for the $$$. In any case, I am tired of being trolled so I concede all points. Madoka is, for all intents and purposes, a masterwork of design, writing, animation and music. Edit: BTW, I suggest you go watch the Ex-Machina movie. It is honestly a good movie and I have the feeling you will enjoy it. trucutru fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Jul 28, 2015 |
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Jul 28, 2015 03:37
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trucutru posted:You have activated my trap card! and... errr, dude, they changed the ending of rebellion at the last freaking minute in order to leave it open for another film. That masterwork ending you have been jizzing about? it is just a product of the most pragmatic non-artistic commercialism. Madoka is very clearly part of the later. You can say whatever else you want, but that one is a fact. If you're referring to the change from Godoka saving Homura to the creation of Demon Homura, this happened early in the writing process.
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Jul 28, 2015 03:40
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Lord Justice posted:If you're referring to the change from Godoka saving Homura to the creation of Demon Homura, this happened early in the writing process. It happened early in the writing process in order to leave it open for a sequel. Seriously dude, things can have both good and bad aspects.
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Jul 28, 2015 03:41
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Endorph posted:it's pretty decent. i like the girl in the wheelchair. ok thanks for the info, my girlfriend and i have been looking for a trashy action anime with cool ladies in it to fill the dirty-pair-shaped hole in our hearts but it sounds like we should probably just watch symphogear or gatchaman crowds instead
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Jul 28, 2015 03:41
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Thuryl posted:ok thanks for the info, my girlfriend and i have been looking for a trashy action anime with cool ladies in it to fill the dirty-pair-shaped hole in our hearts but it sounds like we should probably just watch symphogear or gatchaman crowds instead Symphogear is also pretty mediocre. Have you watched Kill La Kill? If you're looking for something "trashy" then oh boy does it deliver.
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Jul 28, 2015 03:44
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Gatchaman isn't trashy but it's super good so watch that
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Jul 28, 2015 03:47
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cheetah7071 posted:It happened early in the writing process in order to leave it open for a sequel. Why is Post-Rebellion a bad thing again? I'm quite looking to seeing certain things, such as Demon Homura's degeneration within her fantasy, or the eventual destruction of her wish via Madoka's rejection of her role as protector (Madoka being a screed against wish fulfillment, this seems like the obvious conclusion to Homura's own wish).
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Jul 28, 2015 03:47
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Thuryl posted:ok thanks for the info, my girlfriend and i have been looking for a trashy action anime with cool ladies in it to fill the dirty-pair-shaped hole in our hearts but it sounds like we should probably just watch symphogear or gatchaman crowds instead Yes, symphogear will give you everything and more.
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Jul 28, 2015 03:50
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trucutru posted:Edit: I'll take you on your word that it happened early in the writing process. Thanks. It was still done for the $$$. Again, this is meaningless, because every action taken in any artistic work created in a capitalist system and sold for money can be defined this way. The change in Rebellion does actually serve a purpose beyond creating a sequel, it exists as a necessary part of the narrative as displayed in the series. Eternal's ending actually makes no sense within the context of the series, wish fulfillment is a cancer than destroys the girls who partake in it and hurts everyone around them. Madoka's "solution" merely perpetuates this system, and is based in wish fulfillment. In other words, to adapt Kiritsugu's words from Fate/Zero: "Magical Girls cannot save the world. They call certain methods of fighting good and others evil, acting as if there was nobility to their idealism. Such illusions, perpetrated by Magical Girls throughout history, have led countless young women to their bloody and despairing deaths, all for the sake of this idea of justice and righteousness. Their fight is hell itself. There is no hope for them. It has nothing but unspeakable despair. Yet Magical Girls have never recognized this truth. And the reason for that is, in every era, a dazzling Goddess has blinded them with her legend and prevented them from seeing the evil of what Magical Girls really represent." Thus the act and creation of Demon Homura is a necessary part of the narrative; Godoka needed to be struck down, her wish needed to be destroyed to fall into line with Madoka's core philosophy. And since Rebellion itself did not address it, a sequel is necessary to focus on Madoka's ideology in totality, to expose it for the toxic idealism that it really is. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Jul 28, 2015 |
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Jul 28, 2015 04:07
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Lord Justice posted:Again, this is meaningless, because every action taken in any artistic work created in a capitalist system and sold for money can be defined this way. Sorry I cannot resist to bite: No! that's not true and it is is my point. Sometimes the artist says "gently caress you" to the money and doesn't compromise her intent. Go ask any artist friend and see what they tell you. The changes were not necessary for the narrative because the author can finish the story wherever the hell she wants and change the point to whatever she wishes, that's the prerogative of the author.
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Jul 28, 2015 04:14
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I'm not sure what went down in the last several pages but I'm throwing myself into the thick of it.trucutru posted:You're wrong. The visual design, characters, costumes, and music are totally designed around being marketable products. I agree with you on the characters and costumes and such. I don't agree about the visual design and music. That could be extrapolated to an absurd degree, so it makes no sense to claim they were designed to be merchandised any more than most other video media. trucutru posted:Since anime is an audiovisual medium that counts as "being designed around the merchandise". trucutru posted:You're right, the distinction between high/low art is not useful here. Anyways, I guess you would agree that there is fine art, which has the purpose of expressing the creativity and ideas of the author to engage the audience on a more than superficial level, and commercial "art" which will compromise its artistic view to generate revenue, right? Well, madoka is part of the later. If there's one thing that annoys me in general, it's drawing hard lines. Who says that a piece of commercial art can't also be a piece of fine art, even partially? It's not as if the all of the best movies of the year for any given year were arthouse films created as fine art. Commercial art simply isn't as likely to be as good as fine art because it has to be concerned with marketability, but that by no means guarantees that it cannot match the technical and artistic quality of fine art. Specifically with Madoka, it's half and half. A lot of it is designed for merchandising, but the core aspects like the story, the music, and the visual style, all seem, to me at least, to directly serve the quality of the overall experience rather than the potential marketability of the name. trucutru posted:You have activated my trap card! and... errr, dude, they changed the ending of rebellion at the last freaking minute in order to leave it open for another film. That masterwork ending you have been jizzing about? it is just a product of the most pragmatic non-artistic commercialism. Madoka is very clearly part of the later. You can say whatever else you want, but that one is a fact. As much as Lord Justice hyperbolizes much of Madoka, he/she's not wrong. As even SFDebris points out, there are A TON of interconnected details in Rebellion to justify its ending. Maybe the ending was a corporate decision, and for my money that's a really big maybe, but that doesn't take away its artistic quality. ViggyNash fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Jul 28, 2015 |
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Jul 28, 2015 04:19
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trucutru posted:Sorry I cannot resist to bite: No! that's not true and it is is my point. Sometimes the artist says "gently caress you" to the money and doesn't compromise her intent. Go ask any artist friend and see what they tell you. Are you attempting to argue that Urobuchi compromised his writing? Because he didn't, he made the change to Rebellion on his own after getting Shinbou's input. Everything in Rebellion, including the ending, works as an extension of the series, Urobuchi didn't write what he did solely for the monetary implications. He's a better writer than that.
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Jul 28, 2015 04:25
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ViggyNash posted:If there's one thing that annoys me in general, it's drawing hard lines. Who says that a piece of commercial art can't also be a piece of fine art, even partially? you're right, but how else can you even start to argue with somebody who says stuff like " To me, sexualization is pretty much universally negative"? first you have to use the hard lines to at least show a light/dark situation. Lord Justice posted:Are you attempting to argue that Urobuchi compromised his writing? yes
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Jul 28, 2015 04:26
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Lord Justice posted:Are you attempting to argue that Urobuchi compromised his writing? Because he didn't, he made the change to Rebellion on his own after getting Shinbou's input. Everything in Rebellion, including the ending, works as an extension of the series, Urobuchi didn't write what he did solely for the monetary implications. He's a better writer than that. Praise lord Urobuchi, for he can do no wrong.
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Jul 28, 2015 04:27
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-Hey urobutcher, your story rocks! -Thanks, oh great perverted one. -But we would make more money if you change the whole ending to something that lets us double-dip. -Okey dokey!
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Jul 28, 2015 04:31
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The world will be a better place if we could all be like urobuchi
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Jul 28, 2015 04:32
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*Cake Attack proceeds to write his magnum opus: The Guy with lots of dead girlfriends and a gun*
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Jul 28, 2015 04:33
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trucutru posted:you're right, but how else can you even start to argue with somebody who says stuff like " To me, sexualization is pretty much universally negative"? first you have to use the hard lines to at least show a light/dark situation. Because that's a personal perspective. Lord Justice doesn't like the topic of sexualization, the end. I can respect that. It's must the same as me getting annoyed at my english lit teacher who seemed hell bent on finding phallic symbology in literally everything we read.
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Jul 28, 2015 04:35
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trucutru posted:-Hey urobutcher, your story rocks! "Initially, I was planning to end this story when Homura is reunited with Madoka. There would be the classic magical girl scenes in the beginning, and then the narrative in which the secret of the town would be revealed; that would drive the beginning and middle parts, and in the end there'd be the final showdown with Kyubey. But I had a hard time deciding on the ending. Ending the story with Homura and Madoka being reunited wasn't really the best outcome. After all, the instant Homura encounters her, she'll be guided by the Law of Cycles, and disappear. Would that make her happy? It was also the director, Mr. Shinbo's opinion that the outcome of the TV series, "a human becoming a god" might be too heavy a fate for a girl in middle school to bear. Since that was the case, I decided to try to come up with a way to create a story in which Madoka could escape that outcome. But I'd already ended this story once, so it was hard to figure out how to expand it. That was when Mr. Shinbo suggested, "How about a story with Homura confronting Madoka as an enemy?" I thought, if that's at all permissible, then I'd suddenly have all these options open to me, and that's how the current plot developed." -Rebellion Material Book
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Jul 28, 2015 04:37
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ViggyNash posted:Because that's a personal perspective. Lord Justice doesn't like the topic of sexualization, the end. I can respect that. It's must the same as me getting annoyed at my english lit teacher who seemed hell bent on finding phallic symbology in literally everything we read. This whole thing started because of his analysis of madoka. I have seen the show/movie too and I agree with him in many things, but he also sees a lot of stuff that just isn't there. Analysis may be subjective but his analysis or your eng-lit teacher's one tells you more about him that about the actual show. That's the mark of bad analysis, there are no symbolic dicks everywhere. Lord Justice posted:-Rebellion Material Book that's called a joke
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Jul 28, 2015 04:42
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trucutru posted:This whole thing started because of his analysis of madoka. I have seen the show/movie too and I agree with him in many things, but he also sees a lot of stuff that just isn't there. Since you keep bringing it up: like what, exactly? Within my analyses I always endeavor to remain faithful to the source material, and often quote said material to back it up.
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Jul 28, 2015 04:49
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Lord Justice posted:Since you keep bringing it up: like what, exactly? Within my analyses I always endeavor to remain faithful to the source material, and often quote said material to back it up. The first that comes to mind, for which I made fun of you quite a bit is that you think that the characters are not particularly sexualized ("Madoka's external core philosophy, or at least part of it, which is the non-sexualization of the characters"). I mean, I really cannot be more clear about my disagreement, why do you need to ask for other points if even in something that is obvious as hell you won't bulge. It will only serve to get into even more arcane and unproductive discussion. For the record, I am mature enough to concede that -after reading that account of how the writing was written- that urobuchi had enough breathing room to work properly as an artist. Edit: anyways, that's really all I have to say. Sorry to disappoint. trucutru fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Jul 28, 2015 |
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Jul 28, 2015 05:05
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Lord Justice posted:Sexualization is, at least in the case of female characters, designed solely to objectify them for the purposes of male titillation. This becomes even worse when it using teenage characters in a similar fashion. I don't see why it is a controversial or contrarian opinion to be against that sort of thing. All characters are designed for a reason, why is "to give guys boners" a bad reason?
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Jul 28, 2015 05:20
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I can't recall the interviews with the staff to a disturbing detail like I could early last year, but I think the interview that got everyone into a flurry about Rebellion being a sequel-grab was this guy. That part that sticks out is Urobuchi's line, "But both Iwakami-san and Shinbou-san were like, 'No, we want the story to keep going after this' and wouldn’t give me the OK." But the context of this interview contrasts with what Lord Justice posted, and also some pre-Rebellion interviews where Gen talks about the writing process. It's not like Urobuchi was sitting at his desk admiring his just-finished draft of not!Rebellion when bad-guy Shinbo came in with Iwakami, cartoon dollar signs gleaming in their eyes. Urobuchi speaks very fondly of his time with SHAFT and co. and remarks that Madoka Magica was a work brought upon by the camaraderie of the staff. Which has been completely true from the beginning—the series is somewhat of an all-star project. I can't imagine it without any of the creative minds behind it. Can you imagine how much the series would lack emotionally if it didn't have Kajiura's amazing composition, or how empty Rebellion's world would be without Inu Curry pouring their hearts into it?
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Jul 28, 2015 05:24
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boom boom boom posted:All characters are designed for a reason, why is "to give guys boners" a bad reason? The answer is implicit in the definition, sexualization of women is the objectification of women, it turns them into objects and dehumanizes them. Within an artistic work, this means that a female character is delegitimized as a character. Note that this is a different from a female character expressing her sexuality, which is fine in a general sense, I just don't like its presence in Madoka.
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Jul 28, 2015 05:26
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But it's fiction. Lots of characters in fiction exist only to do a thing, like a nerdy character who's only there to provide exposition so the audience knows what's going on, or a jerk who's only there to crate an obstacle for the protagonist. Are they not "legitimate as a character"?
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Jul 28, 2015 05:40
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