|
Cool
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2015 17:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 21:27 |
|
|
I got to the part where it looks like they're doing collar and elbow wrestling and umm...yall ever heard of trips before?
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2015 17:27
|
|
|
fatherdog posted:The failure of most BJJ schools to adequately address 1) and 2), and sometimes 4) depending on the school, could be an interesting discussion, but it invariably seems to get brought up exclusively by people doing poo poo like aikido which fails to adequately address any of them. We have a brown belt who is also a police officer and he goes over 1 and 2. I have seen techniques to be used against 4, but never "practiced" them. He is also 300lbs so its good/bad to roll against him.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2015 17:47
|
|
|
Kekekela posted:This is an interesting topic, and I agree the points system is crap. I agree. Although, I ended up in a three hour match with someone content on playing from the rear end ball position. Someone frustrating when you go up against someone who is content on just sitting in that position while you drive your knee into their ribs (and for some reason they refuse to do literally anything).
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2015 20:33
|
|
|
I don't understand the gripping against points in grappling. Do people REALLY want grappling tournaments to go on far longer than they already do? I mean even at the five minute match format the individual divisions in the tournament feel like its an all day affair. The Metamoris format is really only cool for the really cool superstar matches. I have seen more shenanigans coming from the banning of certain submissions rather than a guy just holding position after he's up on points, but I've only been to two tournaments so.. they maybe a bigger problem than I know v v
Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Jul 27, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2015 20:46
|
|
|
What are the rules for the grappling in that HEMA thing? Are they just "bad" at grappling since that's not what they do most of the time or are the rules very different from something like judo?
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2015 20:48
|
|
|
Nah no one wants unlimited match time but tiebreakers like Start from bad position and see who subs quickest ala EBI would be great.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2015 20:51
|
|
|
KingColliwog posted:What are the rules for the grappling in that HEMA thing? Are they just "bad" at grappling since that's not what they do most of the time or are the rules very different from something like judo? We're just super bad.  The university judo club's got a beginners' course starting in fall and I'm seriously starting to consider picking it up because oh God I don't want to look like that. If they keep the same hours as they've got right now, it wouldn't even interfere with my longsword.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2015 21:47
|
|
|
KildarX posted:I don't understand the gripping against points in grappling. Do people REALLY want grappling tournaments to go on far longer than they already do? I mean even at the five minute match format the individual divisions in the tournament feel like its an all day affair. The Metamoris format is really only cool for the really cool superstar matches. I have seen more shenanigans coming from the banning of certain submissions rather than a guy just holding position after he's up on points, but I've only been to two tournaments so.. they maybe a bigger problem than I know v They want people to stall in guard instead of stall after passing guard.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2015 22:31
|
|
|
2DCAT posted:I agree. Although, I ended up in a three hour match with someone content on playing from the rear end ball position. Someone frustrating when you go up against someone who is content on just sitting in that position while you drive your knee into their ribs (and for some reason they refuse to do literally anything). Points began as a way to simulate striking advantages without hitting people. I think that's been lost over time and was a valid idea. I've always thought that turtle position should carry some kind of penalty because of how exposed the back of your head becomes. Better than being mounted or even under side but as pride and gsp have demonstrated, it's not a place to hang out. I would like to train bjj with legal body shots.assuming it wasn't a gym war every day and with sane people. Kinda like sambo I guess.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2015 22:33
|
|
|
re sub only: I'd just like to clarify that I was thinking more in terms of things that exist like EBI or the upcoming Metamoris challenger league; not so much trying to use Metamoris super fight rules to run a tournament.
Kekekela fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Jul 27, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2015 22:54
|
|
|
Siivola posted:Here's the rulebook. Tl;dr: Throw a person twice to win. Judo would be super good combined with a swordfighting art. You can tell that a lot of japanese jujitsu stuff is built with swordfighting in mind, all the wrist-grabbing arms-length grappling stuff, and judo is the best possible version of it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 00:55
|
|
|
Siivola posted:Here's the rulebook. Tl;dr: Throw a person twice to win. The HEMA guy I got a ringen lesson also does wrestling and bjj, real nice dude. He won the swordfish 2014 ringen tournament because he was the only guy left without an injury. 02-6611-0142-1 posted:Judo would be super good combined with a swordfighting art. You can tell that a lot of japanese jujitsu stuff is built with swordfighting in mind, all the wrist-grabbing arms-length grappling stuff, and judo is the best possible version of it. We've done some super fun drop the sword and hip throw the fucker stuff at my club.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 01:08
|
|
|
Mechafunkzilla posted:Anything that purports to "no do harm" and involves throwing people on the ground is absurd. Throws are outrageously dangerous when you don't have a compliant partner breakfalling on a padded mat and are much more harmful than strikes, generally speaking. Throwing can mess you up hard if you hit the ground wrong. I dislocated my shoulder when I got thrown in Muay Thai. Doctors told me never to go back because they are afraid it will slip out again while holding pads. But boy do I miss it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 01:31
|
|
|
fatherdog posted:The failure of most BJJ schools to adequately address 1) and 2), and sometimes 4) depending on the school, could be an interesting discussion, but it invariably seems to get brought up exclusively by people doing poo poo like aikido which fails to adequately address any of them. I think some aikido people would argue that they do 1 & 2ish with their more holistic approach?  I've definitely been to a MMA school that was actively teaching people to be worse at deescalation and poo poo, that was fun. So I know this isn't really the point of this thread, but I've also kinda wondered about BJJ and grappling efficacy as a self-defense thing. Actually sort of been a thing I've wondered since someone posted a 'BJJ real life situation' that happened over a basketball game. Thread consensus was 'good technique, but he should've deescalated.' But it wound up with the BJJka having to tell the guy 'look, I can break your arm from here, like I'll rip it out of the socket.' And that doesn't seem great to me? Obviously the efficacy of BJJ it's magnitudes less important than the actual avoidance thing but the whole debate you're talking about (stalling in guard, turtling up, etc.) seems like not what I'd like to be doing unless things have gone very wrong. Maybe it's coming from my striking background but I'd rather duck a few hits, hit back once or twice and wait for Plan A (run away) to open up again. I'd rather not get my limbs entangled in a mess on the ground. Like it's a good skillset to have if things get to that point but I'd rather avoid that from the outset. Even poo poo like armbars, obviously helpful, but in a non-tournament setting there's a very... binary aspect to it. Like once you're in that position you can either a. hope to talk them down/someone else intervenes (something totally out of your control) or b. follow through and straight break a limb. Better than being on the bad end of a beating but still not what I'd call ideal. Ditto for chokes, etc. It's not like I'm going to let a 'Real Life Street Thug' tap out and then reset. I dunno, to me the judo ideal of 'bad guy on ground, me standing' seems so much better because there's a clear follow through (running away while they stand up). Am I wrong? I probably am. Someone tell me how wrong I am.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 06:05
|
|
|
Dysgenesis posted:I think we have recently demonstrated that this is not the case. A lot of combat sports discussion happens because those discussions are rather straightforward and can be tested by going out and training. True, it's crude to say, "well, to get your jab better, just jab a lot in different drills and wait until it gets better in sparring." But that's better than the TMA approach of discussing minutiae of muscle tension and timing in your arms to throw a jab when guys in your gym are huffing after 30 jumping jacks. I'm all for discussion of Taichi principles and techinque, but I realize that those techniques have an extremely tenuous connection to functioning martial arts. the JJ posted:So I know this isn't really the point of this thread, but I've also kinda wondered about BJJ and grappling efficacy as a self-defense thing. Actually sort of been a thing I've wondered since someone posted a 'BJJ real life situation' that happened over a basketball game. Thread consensus was 'good technique, but he should've deescalated.' But it wound up with the BJJka having to tell the guy 'look, I can break your arm from here, like I'll rip it out of the socket.' And that doesn't seem great to me? The guy who knew BJJ crashed and clinched. He didn't have to. He could have kept at arm's reach until the other guy realized fighting was stupid. The situation was not destined to end up where it did just because one guy trained BJJ.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 06:23
|
|
|
kimbo305 posted:The guy who knew BJJ crashed and clinched. He didn't have to. He could have kept at arm's reach until the other guy realized fighting was stupid. The situation was not destined to end up where it did just because one guy trained BJJ. Right, that's what we got out of the discussion when it first came up; he went for the technique when he didn't have to raise the stakes. But what I'm saying that, assuming that the other guy did decide to make it a thing, I wouldn't want to be tangled up in him with 'break a limb' as my only out. Not that punching the guy is a better response or anything, but at least if it comes to that I'm still standing and ready to run. His buddy isn't, say, going to walk up and stomp on my head while I'm trying to explain that, no, really, bones are more fragile than you think. Like if that crowd there had been more boisterous and less 'break it the gently caress up you idiots' (as would be the case in SNAFU situation where you would be having to apply these silly sports to not dying) then that's not what I'd want to be doing?
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 06:34
|
|
|
Please don't leg lock anyone at the YMCA
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 06:42
|
|
|
the JJ posted:Right, that's what we got out of the discussion when it first came up; he went for the technique when he didn't have to raise the stakes. But what I'm saying that, assuming that the other guy did decide to make it a thing, I wouldn't want to be tangled up in him with 'break a limb' as my only out. Not that punching the guy is a better response or anything, but at least if it comes to that I'm still standing and ready to run. His buddy isn't, say, going to walk up and stomp on my head while I'm trying to explain that, no, really, bones are more fragile than you think. actually sweeps and positional dominance are a thing in BJJ hope this helps
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 06:47
|
|
|
1st AD posted:actually sweeps and positional dominance are a thing in BJJ hope this helps It does, can you elaborate?
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 06:57
|
|
|
kimbo305 posted:A lot of combat sports discussion happens because those discussions are rather straightforward and can be tested by going out and training. I'll just throw my hat in to the (non sparring) ring here and agree with this completely - I've been doing Iaido for about 10 years now and there's a definite difference between the kind of practice we do and the kind of practice I see discussed here. I guess it's the difference between an art that's purely a 'discipline' and something with more practical application. My club's about as 'official' as Iai clubs get - we're IKF affiliated via the New Zealand Kendo Federation and practise Seitei and Muso Shinden Ryu Iai with ties to a traditional MSR dojo and the ZNKF in Japan, and among the seniors I don't think anyone's under the illusion that what we do is somehow street-practical. I get the feeling some of the Koryu-only dojos are a bit less pragmatic about the art. Iai gets so esoteric at the higher levels that there's basically no way to really quantify good v. bad without already having the grade to spot it, which means that you can't really apply any kind of objective measure to someone's practice. And even when you can apply some kind of test to the quality of kata (angle of cut, angle of blade after cut, angle of knee when kneeling etc.) the actual reason for that test being meaningful in the situation the kata represents is sort of hidden away until you've gone deep in to the art anyway. It sort of does everything backwards - You have to get it perfect before you get to know why you need to get it perfect, which is about as far away from practical as you can get. I've lurked around the thread for a while and enjoyed reading stuff from people who do actual contact arts with practical application, there's a bit of crossover, but I guess some arts are more focused on tradition and form than actual use.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 07:05
|
|
|
I thought the YMCA purple belt's technique was pretty bad
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 08:42
|
|
|
the JJ posted:It does, can you elaborate? BJJ doesn't have set goals or set outcomes. If you want to tangle yourself up with a guy and heelhook him in a self-defence situation, you're dumb.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 09:09
|
|
|
02-6611-0142-1 posted:BJJ doesn't have set goals or set outcomes. If you want to tangle yourself up with a guy and heelhook him in a self-defence situation, you're dumb. Okay, but it often looks to me as though BJJ guys place themselves in situations that -while great for their ruleset- are often really lovely for self-defense. Now that's fine for a sport but since we're talking about self-defense (and the merits of (realish?) 'sport' vs. 'disciplines') is it not true that some trained reactions* of BJJ seem less good than, say, judo or MT? Like it doesn't have set goals or outcomes but many outcomes often do look like two people wrapped up and that's not where I'd want to be if I'm trying to extricate myself from a situation as opposed to scoring points. *And, the argument has been made, the repeated drill of techniques against resisting opponents is what separates 'good' self defense from 'bullshido' self-defense
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 09:20
|
|
|
02-6611-0142-1 posted:Judo would be super good combined with a swordfighting art. You can tell that a lot of japanese jujitsu stuff is built with swordfighting in mind, all the wrist-grabbing arms-length grappling stuff, and judo is the best possible version of it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 09:24
|
|
|
origami posted:I thought the YMCA purple belt's technique was pretty bad I dunno, his pirouette was better than mine. He must have spent hours drilling those jazz hands. And such a coordinated outfit!
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 09:33
|
|
|
the JJ posted:Okay, but it often looks to me as though BJJ guys place themselves in situations that -while great for their ruleset- are often really lovely for self-defense. Now that's fine for a sport but since we're talking about self-defense (and the merits of (realish?) 'sport' vs. 'disciplines') is it not true that some trained reactions* of BJJ seem less good than, say, judo or MT? Like it doesn't have set goals or outcomes but many outcomes often do look like two people wrapped up and that's not where I'd want to be if I'm trying to extricate myself from a situation as opposed to scoring points. I feel like you're only looking at one half of it. Suppose you hit the ground or get tangled up somehow and you don't want to be there. What martial art will make you a master at standing up again?
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 10:30
|
|
|
02-6611-0142-1 posted:What martial art will make you a master at standing up again? Sweet boxing footwork
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 10:50
|
|
|
KildarX posted:I don't understand the gripping against points in grappling. Do people REALLY want grappling tournaments to go on far longer than they already do? I mean even at the five minute match format the individual divisions in the tournament feel like its an all day affair. The Metamoris format is really only cool for the really cool superstar matches. I have seen more shenanigans coming from the banning of certain submissions rather than a guy just holding position after he's up on points, but I've only been to two tournaments so.. they maybe a bigger problem than I know v When you're in the finals of an IBJJF tournament and are constantly pressing the pace against someone who is stalling, and at the last second, the Brazilian ref decides to award a questionable "advantage" to the person stalling and you lose by one advantage, you'll understand the gripe. I have been in more matches were it takes like 15 seconds in an advanced position to get your points or someone has thrown their hips up in the air at me and received an advantage due to a "submission attempt" than I know what to do with... it's really become rather comical. 2DCAT fucked around with this message at 11:37 on Jul 28, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 11:33
|
|
|
02-6611-0142-1 posted:I feel like you're only looking at one half of it. Suppose you hit the ground or get tangled up somehow and you don't want to be there. What martial art will make you a master at standing up again? bjj has this move called the technical stand up . http://breakingmuscle.com/brazilian-jiu-jitsu/brazilian-jiu-jitsu-how-why-to-do-a-technical-stand-up
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 12:36
|
|
|
Siivola posted:Here's the rulebook. Tl;dr: Throw a person twice to win. Thx. At least it's cool to see what happens when two fit but not really trained in grappling guys try to grapple.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 12:52
|
|
|
the JJ posted:Okay, but it often looks to me as though BJJ guys place themselves in situations that -while great for their ruleset- are often really lovely for self-defense. Now that's fine for a sport but since we're talking about self-defense (and the merits of (realish?) 'sport' vs. 'disciplines') is it not true that some trained reactions* of BJJ seem less good than, say, judo or MT? Like it doesn't have set goals or outcomes but many outcomes often do look like two people wrapped up and that's not where I'd want to be if I'm trying to extricate myself from a situation as opposed to scoring points. The complicated/tangled looking positions that you see are for the purposes of BJJ vs BJJ in the BJJ ruleset. Nobody thinks that trying to play inverted spider guard when somebody wants to punch you in the face is a good idea.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 13:43
|
|
|
the JJ posted:Okay, but it often looks to me as though BJJ guys place themselves in situations that -while great for their ruleset- are often really lovely for self-defense. Like what?
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 14:49
|
|
|
Wrestlers must be pretty bad at MMA because they keep their hands so low in wrestling tournaments.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 14:53
|
|
|
fatherdog posted:Like what? He prolly means pulling guard which is bad in a 1 + 1 situation. Or something. Trying to fight two guys on the ground sucks. Best regards, required to do that a few times. That said a bjj stylist can prolly get up too better than a... uhh.. ninja killing machine or whoever who trains so hard they can't actually train (too deadly).
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 15:07
|
|
|
Someone who does BJJ is going to be a much better wrestler than someone who doesn't do any kind of grappling. If they still decide to pull guard in a real fight or whatever then they're just dumb.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 15:10
|
|
|
Guess reflex could kick in or something. But I agree.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 15:15
|
|
|
There are certainly positions that are less applicable in MMA than sports jiu jitsu but even there I think the differences are being blown out of proportion lately. Every open guard technique is not the berimbolo. I kind of go with the trial by fire approach, thinking if BJJ weren't useful then MMA fighters wouldn't train it, and virtually all of them do (which is why you see fewer subs these days) even though I think the rules favor strikers in some key ways*. Ironically, I think now when watching high level MMA, the application of BJJ for self-defense is easiest to observe when the loser is using jits to avoid getting their skull caved in (might not be winning with the judges, but this is really a nice skill set to possess if you're the one getting your rear end kicked) * - standup at the end of every round - 4 oz gloves (and wraps) are great for letting brittle hands punch the crap out of hard heads while not absorbing much impact (although they do reduce cut frequency a good deal) - 4 oz gloves also feel like having pumpkins on your hands when trying to lock up chokes against trained opposition e: good point VV Kekekela fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Jul 28, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 15:21
|
|
|
Kekekela posted:
It's more the gauze wraps underneath than the glorified bicycle gloves. I did bunch of training with those gloves and no wraps, ouch. Several knuckle hurts. Helps with cuts even without the wrapping for sure.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 15:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 21:27 |
|
|
MFW posted:I'll just throw my hat in to the (non sparring) ring here and agree with this completely - I've been doing Iaido for about 10 years now and there's a definite difference between the kind of practice we do and the kind of practice I see discussed here. I guess it's the difference between an art that's purely a 'discipline' and something with more practical application. My club's about as 'official' as Iai clubs get - we're IKF affiliated via the New Zealand Kendo Federation and practise Seitei and Muso Shinden Ryu Iai with ties to a traditional MSR dojo and the ZNKF in Japan, and among the seniors I don't think anyone's under the illusion that what we do is somehow street-practical. I get the feeling some of the Koryu-only dojos are a bit less pragmatic about the art. Iaido is really cool. I trained in it for a time and agree with what you're saying here. I don't think anyone would say it's foolish given no one practicing pretends they're going to be a quick draw samurai for the street (I hope). Also I've seen demonstrations of how sharp a katana can be and so I understand why you need to be obsessed with perfect technique early. On bjj for self defense: I used it once. I pulled a guy off my friend and then when he turned on me I got double unders and pinned him to a wall while he tried to hit me. Then someone yelled police so I threw him to the side and we all ran away. At the time I was a total guard puller in competition, never even crossed my mind in that moment. Also, I controlled him without hurting him something I could not have done with aikido training because even if it worked i would have broken his wrist and thrown him on the ground. As an example of another end of the grappling spectrum. Another friend of mine has finished 2 fights by high crotch and dropping guys, knocking them out. Never even threw a punch just clinch, drop and lift.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2015 15:56
|
|