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Civchat has caused a crisis in our thread. A large crisis. In fact, if you've got a moment, it's a twelve-storey crisis with a magnificent entrance hall, carpeting throughout, 24-hour portage, and an enormous sign on the roof, saying 'This is a Large Crisis'. And a large crisis requires a large plan. Get me two grapnels and a length of rope! 100 Years Ago Bar none, this is my favourite funny story from the entire war. Some Ottomans at ANZAC Cove have come up with an incredibly original solution to their distinct lack of barbed wire. I can still remember how hard I laughed the first time I read it. In more serious news: on the Carso the Austro-Hungarians are bringing up large quantities of proper rock drills to carve themselves some really decent trenches, the Siege of Saisi continues with a second intervention from the Force Publique (boo, hiss), and Herbert Sulzbach's diary chugs back into life; he's just bought himself a pocket camera.
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Jul 28, 2015 15:27
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Just picked up a book on Soviet Cannon armament up to 57mm calibre stuff with quite some details on construction and what-have-yous. If anyone has any requests I can check to see if they're included. Covers all the way up to modern guns too, it seems.
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Jul 28, 2015 15:28
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Just picked up a book on Soviet Cannon armament up to 57mm calibre stuff with quite some details on construction and what-have-yous. If anyone has any requests I can check to see if they're included. Covers all the way up to modern guns too, it seems. HE filler amount in APHE shells please!
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Jul 28, 2015 15:32
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The only silly thing about civ that people seem to pick up is that technological progression is somehow linear and always improving. I've had nerds tell me about how the English had "better archery tech" than the French and silly poo poo like that
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Jul 28, 2015 15:33
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Ah, the loathsome French archery tree. Piss poor.
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Jul 28, 2015 15:47
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Xerxes17 posted:HE filler amount in APHE shells please! Of... of every calibre or one specifically? 
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Jul 28, 2015 15:57
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PittTheElder posted:Oh I don't think there's anything wrong with getting into history like that, I certainly did. On the other hand CK does have some other problems, like going to Absolute Crown authority (i.e something like Louis XIV's reign) is always bad and the nobles frankly become this cesspool of rebellion no matter what. They needed a "tradition" meter to reduce the penalty of that and perhaps a loyalist trait. Kanine posted:I think it's really weird how so many gamers are like "games are art!" but when you try to examine or criticize games in an academic way they go "but it's just a game!" You're confusing Gamers with Gamergaters. The latter are the ones who want to regress gaming to pure consumerism. I like learning interesting things about history from games and would like more games to better represent history through gameplay. Here we go, representing history through mechanics Patrick Spens posted:Sure, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't criticize Civ for its errors. Just as Civ can be a first step, critical reviews of where it falls short can be a good second step. A good example of where this turns into good learnin' is when you have someone play a game like CKII, pick up some textbooks, realize what parts of CKII are inaccurate and then start modding the game to make it more accurate. I.e Stalingrad being on the wrong side of the Volga in Hoi3. e again instead of making another post when the thread seems to be drifting back on topic: the JJ posted:Sure, but Pong doesn't dress up in historical colors and depict itself as history. Whereas Civilization very much sets itself up as that so. It's in the name. So I think it is worthwhile to look at it critically and look at how it, the game and not the in-game encyclopedia, deals with history. Do I think it ought to be lit on fire like I think Mein Kampf should be? No. But do I think it deserves a critical look in the same way I look at the historiography of an academic history? Yeah, more that one. I think where I disagree with your assessment is the rather unfair comparison to Mein Kampf; how does an ignorant person go into MK and comes to the contrived conclusion you outline in any way similar to an ignorant person picking up Civilization because it's a game and games are presumably fun? Who looks at MK and thinks "Oh man that looks like a fun read."? MK isn't a novel, it's a political manifesto first and foremost and it's unlikely anyone would read it without at least having that interest. Your post strikes me as more a criticism of taking things at face value and not taking critical consideration. Sure if someone is lazy and never follows up then learning their history entirely from Civ can be dangerous if they're ever in a position to make real world decisions based on that knowledge (such as voting). This I don't think is per se a good criticism of Civ and other grand strategy games. The better avenue is that they would be better games if instead of merely being historically flavoured they took pains to, as per the video I linked, integrated gameplay to better convey history and historical models. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Jul 28, 2015 |
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Jul 28, 2015 16:07
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I found this and it's pretty drat cool: Kirishima Damage Analysis. It's a really detailed analysis of what happened to the battleship Kirishima at the second naval battle of Guadalcanal.
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Jul 28, 2015 16:23
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wdarkk posted:I found this and it's pretty drat cool: Very interesting, thank you posting that. When a ship capsizes it's often (if not usually) asymmetric flooding that causes it, so I'm not at all shocked it's what did in the Kirishima.
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Jul 28, 2015 16:45
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Fo3 posted:Anyone could build them, even Australians. Look for Yankee screwdriver. They're out there. Be aware that some models use the original bits rather than the commonly encounter 1/4" hex bits.
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Jul 28, 2015 16:50
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Shut the gently caress up about video games, for the love of God.
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Jul 28, 2015 16:59
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Trin Tragula posted:Bar none, this is my favourite funny story from the entire war. Some Ottomans at ANZAC Cove have come up with an incredibly original solution to their distinct lack of barbed wire. I can still remember how hard I laughed the first time I read it. In more serious news: on the Carso the Austro-Hungarians are bringing up large quantities of proper rock drills to carve themselves some really decent trenches, the Siege of Saisi continues with a second intervention from the Force Publique (boo, hiss), and Herbert Sulzbach's diary chugs back into life; he's just bought himself a pocket camera. OK, that barbed wired story literally made me laugh out loud. 
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Jul 28, 2015 17:16
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Let's go talk about Civilization V in the Civilization V thread, because it's a very interesting conversation that's derailing this thread.
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Jul 28, 2015 17:30
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Suspect Bucket posted:Hooray! Great post. I love how the American initial response to the whole thing is roll up, yell, and try to steal poo poo. Also looking forward to the other rebellions. I love my country was basically 'is our poo poo safe? great, forward all questions about GOD AND JESUS to us and stay away from our poo poo and be cool!' I just want to point out the videos I posted was basically Historians enjoying the weird novelty of history video games and talking about themes/settings. Not nerds being bad. Give it a chance!
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Jul 28, 2015 17:37
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my dad posted:OK, that barbed wired story literally made me laugh out loud.
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Jul 28, 2015 17:41
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Very interesting, thank you posting that. I feel kind of bad for the captain. He did what his training told him to do, but it was exactly the wrong thing. I wonder if a US crew in the same circumstance could have done better. Given the different institutions of damage control, it seems likely.
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Jul 28, 2015 17:43
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Shut the gently caress up about video games, for the love of God. Another thing about wargames, at least of the Civ type, is that they tend to whitewash the darker bits of our history. Sid Meier's Colonization is a great example of this. While it's an educational game, all colonists come from Europe and indentured servants are the closest you get to slavery. This is slightly amusing in a game where the goal is to gain independence from your king - Haitian revolution, what's that? Likewise there are problems with the depiction of American nations, but it could be worse I guess. But from a marketing point of view it's understandable. It'd be different if you were making eg. a niche boardgame about cross-Atlantic triangle trade, but when you're trying to sell a game to the American market about American history, making the player responsible for exporting African slaves to pick cotton would make many players feel uncomfortable. It'd be similar to if in WitE the player also had to allocate transport points to move Jews into concentration camps (or, as the Soviet player, move various minorities to GULag). And so strategy games tell us a cleaned up, sterile version of events. Action games can deal with grimey topics like slavery or genocide more freely because usually the protagonist is a champion of everything that is good and can try to free the slaves or stop massacring of innocents. Hence, non-strategy games may, and I emphasize may, at times give a more honest look into the past than strategy games even if the perspective is more restricted.
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Jul 28, 2015 17:48
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Why the gently caress are we talking about civilization. As far as I remember that's the game where Ghandi spouts platitudes while building nuclear stockpiles to wipe out the map.
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Jul 28, 2015 17:49
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Chamale posted:Let's go talk about Civilization V in the Civilization V thread, because it's a very interesting conversation that's derailing this thread.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:00
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Nothing can improve without analysis and criticism. This is as true of video games as it is of academic writing. Pointing out the flaws in something and highlighting its shortcomings isn't always an attack on that thing. What you're seeing is a whole bunch of people who can't accept criticism overreacting to protect something they like. Seriously, this is the exact same thing I see when some freshman insists on arguing about how I was wrong in giving his paper a C instead of actually accepting my offers to help him become a better writer and analytical thinker.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:02
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Rhymenoserous posted:Why the gently caress are we talking about civilization. As far as I remember that's the game where Ghandi spouts platitudes while building nuclear stockpiles to wipe out the map. Goons gonna goon
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Jul 28, 2015 18:02
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Nenonen posted:It'd be similar to if in WitE the player also had to allocate transport points to move Jews into concentration camps (or, as the Soviet player, move various minorities to GULag). Brathwaite's Train is exactly this.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:05
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Shut the gently caress up about video games, for the love of God. QFT, real history is cool The Germans in the late 1930s constructed an airplane called the Me 261. It was a fully pressurized high flyer that had gob-smacking range; it was built to fly from Berlin to Tokyo nonstop. It was at the time the world's best reconnaissance airplane. It was never put into production, however, as it had been built to transport the Olympic Torch to the 1940 Olympics in Tokyo, and the start of World War 2 cancelled the Olympics. So the Nazis were all like 'meh' and dropped the project.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:06
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I figured we were talking about the general issue of historiography and video games/war games, not just Civilisation specifically, so I don't see how this conversation is appropriate for the Civ 5 thread. Anyway, one neat article series I read on the topic is Troy Goodfellow's series on the idea of national characters in games - i.e. whether England gets that naval bonus or not: http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2010/11/05/national-characters/
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Jul 28, 2015 18:11
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Shut the gently caress up about video games, for the love of God.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:14
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Fangz posted:I figured we were talking about the general issue of historiography and video games/war games, not just Civilisation specifically, so I don't see how this conversation is appropriate for the Civ 5 thread. Yeah, I want to clarify that I love Civ III, have played it to dearh, and I wouldn't change a drat thing about it. I'm not trying to talk about the game here. I'm talking about some of the assumptions (all cultures start from the same ground zero, largely play by the same rules, follow the same singular tech tree upon which you can either be more or less advanced, any exceptions to this rule are barbarians, evil or friendly) which MAKE the game fun also make some statements about how human history works that I don't agree with. And maybe I would care less but we have people on this theead saying poo poo like "it's a good foreign policy simulator" or "it's good that it forces people to have a model" which are just baffling to me. I'm no sayonara is makes it a bad thing. Not having to allocate trains to auschwitz in a fun war game makes that war game more fun, not less fun. But we should e able to say poo poo like "yo, these tanks are still Nazis. Also creating asymetrical balance by havingthese specifically anti-tank vehicles is good for gameplay but I'd be cautious about taking this games model of tank destroyer doctrine too seriously." I'm really no sure why that's so controversial.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:27
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Wojtek driving a tank destroyer. Discuss.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:46
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Fangz posted:I figured we were talking about the general issue of historiography and video games/war games, not just Civilisation specifically, so I don't see how this conversation is appropriate for the Civ 5 thread. Yeah, didn't the thread talk about Fury and other war movies and literature at times? It's indistinguishable. quote:which are just baffling to me. I think the problem is that you're kinda saying this in hyperbolic terms and exaggerating the negative aspects of the approach to the point it sounds like your implying there are no positive aspects. Like when people say "It's a good foreign policy sim" they aren't saying it's the best or so good your exploration can stop there; the flaws that hold it back don't eclipse it entirely or make it without meaningful value in regards to history. The basic concepts of "Hey look I wanna do a thing, but there's other people who'll respond to me doing a thing? Hrrm." Is mainly about solving a puzzle; but the basic psychology of it when applied to international politics, people I think are saying, is valid enough to get the ball rolling such that if they're curious and inquisitive enough, they'll go out and research it more. Like I mean, the US Marine Corps using Close Combat to teach squad tactics, so clearly historical games do have real world value.
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Jul 28, 2015 18:52
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my dad posted:Wojtek driving a tank destroyer. Would be hard to fit driver spot. Better put him in a Marder or Su-76 to load the gun, where his bear like strenghts would help him. Also, good for smelling any pesky infantry that might want to come up to you and throw a grenade in. Raenir Salazar posted:Yeah, didn't the thread talk about Fury and other war movies and literature at times? It's indistinguishable. What if I want to throw 80 T-34/85s against a bunch of Abramses (Wargame says hello).
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Jul 28, 2015 19:03
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How true was the saying that it only took a few months to train a musketman but a lifetime to train a swordsman or Archer? my dad posted:Wojtek driving a tank destroyer. And how come the US never developed any assault guns?
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Jul 28, 2015 19:06
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JcDent posted:Would be hard to fit driver spot. Better put him in a Marder or Su-76 to load the gun, where his bear like strenghts would help him. Also, good for smelling any pesky infantry that might want to come up to you and throw a grenade in. Getting behind a SU-76 only to find a bear staring at me might make me reconsider throwing the grenade, and also many other life choices. Monocled Falcon posted:
They did, lots of them. The T28/T95 even got sort of close to mass production and deployment before the Siegfried line was penetrated and there was no longer a need for them. Ensign Expendable fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jul 28, 2015 |
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Jul 28, 2015 19:07
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I've won some games doing so but against anyone remotely "good" at the game in the sense they know how to spread out their force composition and have good positioning such that their front line can absorb the zerg rush of obsolete tanks then it's a worthless waste of points. It's a solid troll move against players who don't expect it and waste all of their A+ anti tank munitions on junk but realistically the game handles it well. If you just stand there on a ridge and don't move yeah you get swarmed, if you pull back and take a shot you win. I'm not sure of the point of the question other then yeah Wargame AirLand Battle is also pretty decent at simulating brigade engagements.
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Jul 28, 2015 19:08
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Raenir Salazar posted:I've won some games doing so but against anyone remotely "good" at the game in the sense they know how to spread out their force composition and have good positioning such that their front line can absorb the zerg rush of obsolete tanks then it's a worthless waste of points. It's a solid troll move against players who don't expect it and waste all of their A+ anti tank munitions on junk but realistically the game handles it well. Well, now that you've mentioned it, I did lose one match to zerg rush like that, at the beginning of the game. Any advice, considering that the same person will like send an IL-10 on my way (besides Challengers, who laugh at direct hits). What I meant is that what I have read a cold war book on tanks, and just want to have some fun pushing a T-72 around, and I don't care about the politburo, the tank designer's ailing mother, the Soviet chain of command and tank company organization (13 per company, 10 if in armored division), and nuclear options? What if I want to just run around in a cool looking tank without playing some game by a bunch of Russians that simulates every rivet of the tank and have a control complexity only matched by their style errors, and only permitting historical scenarios with Monkey models and untrained crews? You know, fun?
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Jul 28, 2015 19:24
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To get back on topic, I'm eagerly looking forward to newly emerged Poland dealing with the collapse of Imperial Russia!
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Jul 28, 2015 19:26
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Ensign Expendable posted:Getting behind a SU-76 only to find a bear staring at me might make me reconsider throwing the grenade, and also many other life choices. Of course, field artillery is probably the best choice for bears, and I think Wojtek was one, no? I wonder if you could train a bear as a some sort of modern attack dog for use at night... is it better or worse than Jurrasic World's "let's use this barely contained raptors at war, it's gonna be great, no downsides"?
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Jul 28, 2015 19:26
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Speaking of Wargame ALB-type stuff, I recently cribbed some nice pics off of an NVA-Forum thread (which I apparently missed a couple of years ago). 'Warsaw Pact Areas of Operation' per some kind of Nationale Volksarmee training manual: Strategic and Operational Directions in the Western Theater - with the separate northern and southern German Strategic Direction being clearly distinguished  The legend, columns are: operational direction - borders (right and left) - width - depth - area. Note that the Jutland Operational Direction can be assigned to either the Western or N-Western Theater.  Same poo poo, different map   I believe these are early 1980s documents what with Spain being considered neutral and all.
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Jul 28, 2015 19:33
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JcDent posted:Well, now that you've mentioned it, I did lose one match to zerg rush like that, at the beginning of the game. Any advice, considering that the same person will like send an IL-10 on my way (besides Challengers, who laugh at direct hits). In general such a tactic forces you to use the roads to get to a good position or to surprise you by trying to get to your rear quickly since they are typically fast tanks. Similar to the assault paratrooper rush if you have decent recon to see it coming you can prepare some positions, some arty (MLRS is great at this), and be prepared to kite them across an open field and you'll wipe out over half of their force before they get within half of the closing distance of you. quote:What I meant is that what I have read a cold war book on tanks, and just want to have some fun pushing a T-72 around, and I don't care about the politburo, the tank designer's ailing mother, the Soviet chain of command and tank company organization (13 per company, 10 if in armored division), and nuclear options? What if I want to just run around in a cool looking tank without playing some game by a bunch of Russians that simulates every rivet of the tank and have a control complexity only matched by their style errors, and only permitting historical scenarios with Monkey models and untrained crews? You know, fun? I want this as well but for the operational level. I want to play a multiplayer game where I have a corps and pushing across my sector of the front until I reach the Rhine.  Koesj posted:Speaking of Wargame ALB-type stuff, I recently cribbed some nice pics off of an NVA-Forum thread (which I apparently missed a couple of years ago). 'Warsaw Pact Areas of Operation' per some kind of Nationale Volksarmee training manual: I love these!
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Jul 28, 2015 19:35
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Ensign Expendable posted:
Ah, do the light ones like the SU-76s and marder III have a different name? Because I was mostly thinking about how much more atheistically pleasing those types of vehicles were over ordinary tanks.
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Jul 28, 2015 19:39
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Raenir Salazar posted:I want this as well but for the operational level. I want to play a multiplayer game where I have a corps and pushing across my sector of the front until I reach the Rhine. Me too x2! Looks like there's a large amount of mirroring going on with that WP operational spacing since it's pretty much 7/8ths of NATO Corps' AOs directly copied. I wonder if this is some kind of fake makework thing for general staff training, where the enemy's plans are the thing you base your coursework on. This would combine well with the idea that the East Germans never really saw the real plans anyway.
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Jul 28, 2015 19:42
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Monocled Falcon posted:Ah, do the light ones like the SU-76s and marder III have a different name? Because I was mostly thinking about how much more atheistically pleasing those types of vehicles were over ordinary tanks. No and there is no universal term for them. SU-76 was a 'self-propelled artillery chassis'. Marder was a 'tank hunter'. You could distinguish weapon systems designed for anti-tank use by calling them as tank destroyers while calling weapon systems used for infantry support as assault guns, but it never was as clean cut as that in practise, especially after StuGs started carrying long guns. For clarity we can wrap all turretless AFVs under the title 'assault gun'. Turretless AFVs, especially open topped ones like Marder or SU-76, were compromises - you needed to field a gun in a usually obsolete chassis that couldn't carry a turret as heavy as required for the gun. Heavier ones weren't an exception, the difference being that trying to fit a medium gun into a pre-war Czech or French chassis you were trying to fit a super gun into the heaviest tank frame that you had available. Nenonen fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Jul 28, 2015 |
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Jul 28, 2015 19:57
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