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Last night I started thinking about something related to Dungeon World inspired by the fact that I've been running a lot of Apocalypse World as of late. Dungeon World has the aid/interfere move lifted almost entirely from Apocalypse World, with the difference being that you roll+Bond instead of +Hx. The aid side of the move makes sense in the context of Dungeon World, but interfere is almost entirely useless because the game doesn't revolve around PC vs PC drama in the same way as Apocalypse World does. It's just sort of there in case you do need to adjudicate PC on PC conflict, but Dungeon World does not push for inter party conflict like Apocalypse World does. What this tangent lead me to think about is that what we're really missing on the PbtA market is a fantasy game that does not assume a PCs vs the rest of the world dynamic but that's more about characters with different agendas. There was going to be a PbtA dark ages game by Vincent Baker but that was apparently scrapped. This, again, reminded me of a conversation in the chat thread about how G.R.R. Martin's books have all the hallmarks of romantic fantasy, just darker and grittier, and I can sort of see that: the foundations of romantic fantasy are in the medieval romances, which were all about characters entangled in courtly intrigue and romance, often acting at cross purposes. Anyway, to make a long story short, I'm now thinking about adapting PbtA into a game of romantic fantasy with a focus on intrigue and romance.
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Jul 24, 2015 10:32
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Ratpick posted:Last night I started thinking about something related to Dungeon World inspired by the fact that I've been running a lot of Apocalypse World as of late. Vincent still mentions AW:DA occasionally on G+, and he does it in such a way that I can say, while it may not be his top priority, it's not scrapped. Also, have you seen City of Judas?
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Jul 24, 2015 11:54
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Ich posted:Vincent still mentions AW:DA occasionally on G+, and he does it in such a way that I can say, while it may not be his top priority, it's not scrapped. I hadn't until now, but I Googled it and wow, it seems like the game I've always wanted. A long time ago I pitched a campaign set in the Kingdom of Jerusalem using The Burning Wheel, but the game turned out to be too heavy for my tastes. I'll definitely have to look into this. Also, it's nice to now Dark Ages isn't completely scrapped. Still, it's very much in the vein of dark grim and gritty fantasy, and the idea I've got in my head is one which is clearly in the vein of romantic fantasy, with courtly romance and drama at the center. I might lift some ideas from Dark Ages, but the tone is going to be completely different.
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Jul 24, 2015 12:21
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Daeren posted:Do you mean for DW, or in general? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, since I've been puttering around with a few ideas that involve messing with the paradigm of experience-as-reinforcement. More in general, but I've been thinking a lot in terms of resources and resource limitations lately. For instance, interacting with someone in a way they appreciate might grant you a resource instead of being just a rising bonus VS a DC - call it a "Trust Pool" of dice which you can add to your own attempts to do something if you call on your allies. Then you can spend that resource on favors or similar; that way you can build a network of people to call on, and sometimes they just go "this makes us square, capiche?" because you just ran out of dice. Tracking your relationships with people, saving them from danger, currying favor and so on becomes a major theme of a game like that by nature of there being a resource to manage. I look to Mouse Guard in this respect, where your family and relationships are on your character sheet and whenever you're with them you can have them help you regain your statuses, like feeding you or relaxing around them so you're not so stressed. The beauty of a resource like that is that it also acts as a reward. XP is just "you build yourself up towards the inevitable point where you can't build further," but a resource like that lets you level people "sideways" by not making them more powerful all the time but by just giving them more options to play with. Another classic option is something like "fate points" that grant rerolls and such or can be spent on using particularly powerful abilities which you couldn't otherwise, but it's important to completely decouple that sort of thing from XP. Another option I've been looking at in terms of pure reward is Achievements. Yes, really. The notion behind that is, I wouldn't want something silly like "killed 100 orcs" or anything you'd have to track. Instead, saving a village grants you a "Local Hero" achievement that gives a bonus when interacting with people from that village, and slaying a dragon would make you a Dragonslayer - feared by cowardly foes, but unpopular with dragons. Doing something awful would give you infamy, which might be a bonus on nefarious deeds but failure means attracting the attention of the local law - maybe you earn the "Infamous Thief" achievement in a city, get +1 Ongoing on doing anything thiefy and nefarious there, but a Miss on top of any other consequences attracts your very own personal Javert, hot on your trail. PbtA is particularly good for this style of mechanic because the achievements themselves are earned entirely within the fiction and can be formatted as moves, and in some ways could replace the system of advanced moves entirely. They could even be made up on the spot. This also has the advantage of making your character's advancement fit the actions you're taking and molded to your character's ongoing story - you're directly rewarded for doing interesting things more so than just fighting people or showing up at the game. The downside is that crafting a good move can be hard to do, and doing it all the time is tough. It would also need a strong set of guidelines. Some moves might also basically become obsolete as the campaign advances, but that's a long term problem. I'd love input on these kinds of ideas, too. I try to solicit as much as I can but just try to get a family member to even understand what this hobby even is first before getting this technical.
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Jul 25, 2015 22:39
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Rulebook Heavily posted:More in general, but I've been thinking a lot in terms of resources and resource limitations lately. I like the idea of characters advancing by their deeds- something more like a free, one-move compendium class instead of having to muster together enough XP to start taking levels in it. What about the "mark XP on a miss" thing, though? In most of my games, played or run, that's been worth most of the early-game level advancement right there, and the extra XP usually takes some of the sting out of the failure.
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Jul 26, 2015 00:35
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That's strictly speaking not a reward mechanism for doing something, but a reward mechanism to teach you to accept that failure in DW means interesting stuff happens. I can't think of an interesting off-the-cuff way to do something different with it, though. Storing up misses for use later as a resource feels wrong, you didn't achieve anything, it's an odd one.
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Jul 26, 2015 00:42
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I think miss XP in DW is there to both soften the blow of rolling bad, as well as to make sure people with worse luck level up more to balance it out. Players who are doing well don't need the extra level up benefits; players who keep messing up do need the extra benefits. It's a built in balancing mechanism that works for Dungeon World, but I can't see it working in anything else.
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Jul 26, 2015 02:54
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gnome7 posted:I think miss XP in DW is there to both soften the blow of rolling bad, as well as to make sure people with worse luck level up more to balance it out. Players who are doing well don't need the extra level up benefits; players who keep messing up do need the extra benefits. It's a built in balancing mechanism that works for Dungeon World, but I can't see it working in anything else. I feel like it's a weird balancing mechanism though because what it's really doing is leveling the playing field for "unlucky" players, which isn't actually a real handicap.
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Jul 26, 2015 06:22
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XP on a miss is part of the XP system we use in Spirit of 77 and it works great. What I really like about it is it encourages people to try things outside their wheelhouse, players who rely exclusively on their highest stats don't get as much XP as players who are willing to take risks and roll for things they're not so good at.
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Jul 26, 2015 06:33
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Bucnasti posted:XP on a miss is part of the XP system we use in Spirit of 77 and it works great. What I really like about it is it encourages people to try things outside their wheelhouse, players who rely exclusively on their highest stats don't get as much XP as players who are willing to take risks and roll for things they're not so good at. That's a good point. Encouraging people to try stuff with their lower stats is worth hanging onto the mechanic alone. I really don't feel like it's any good as a playing field leveler though for the reasons above.
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Jul 26, 2015 06:55
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This may just be people being grogs, but the counter-argument I hear about DW's XP system is that it encourages the game to become "Fumbles & Follies", insofar as the players are encouraged to trip over themselves as much as possible in order to overtake the rest of the party in levels.
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Jul 26, 2015 07:19
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That strategy is going to stop as soon as a Defy Decapitation appears.
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Jul 26, 2015 07:28
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gradenko_2000 posted:This may just be people being grogs, but the counter-argument I hear about DW's XP system is that it encourages the game to become "Fumbles & Follies", insofar as the players are encouraged to trip over themselves as much as possible in order to overtake the rest of the party in levels. A good friend of mine, early while I've been developing Broken World, said he really disliked the reward for failures because it really clashed with certain ways of playing. He is the type that always chooses caution and making plans and getting people to work together using their strengths. If everything goes off without a hitch after careful planning, you get less XP. I see his point. Reward for failed rolls really encourages a "#YOLO!" approach to everything, which while fun, isn't the only way to play. It's difficult to feel out a balance that doesn't penalize players for thinking before acting, while still encouraging players to step forward and try things. Edit: I'm working on reward systems to hand out xp for creative thinking and role playing rather than random dice results. It's not as simple as it sounds though. 
Cheap Shot fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Jul 26, 2015 |
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Jul 26, 2015 09:25
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Cheap Shot posted:If everything goes off without a hitch after careful planning, you get less XP. I see his point. Well, on the other hand, you're likely to defeat a powerful enemy, obtain a valuable treasure, or get new information about the world if you're not a constant parade of failure, and each of those is 1 XP for everybody.
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Jul 26, 2015 22:45
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XP for failure is really elegant in a game like Dungeon World that relies on the players intentionally heading into danger. The way moves and so on work mean that if there were only risk and no reward for rolling dice, the game becomes a matter of saying the right things to avoid rolling the dice as much as possible. The goal-oriented player's mission becomes solving the task in as few rolls as possible - which is boring as gently caress. I've read stories of people's DW games where some players ride heedlessly into danger and have a blast and other players try playing AD&D style, being cautious - and ending up several levels behind other players, then deciding to be bold and adventurous and having way more fun. PBtA is pretty much prefaced on the idea that rolls are loving dangerous but that there's a big reward for doing them. AW and DW do this by giving you XP for rolling dice, which works really well.
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Jul 27, 2015 18:01
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The grease that a lot of PbtA games run on is the idea that failure can be entertaining, and can lead to more interesting things instead of being just hard stops. Over the years we've kind of been trained that, in games, Failure Is Bad. You see people saying that they won't try stuff if there's a chance of failure because what's the point? They tend to also be the ones saying that hard move-style consequences are "punishing players" instead of making interesting and unexpected things happen. Basically if you can't handle the idea of anything bad happening to your character at all...PbtA may not be the wheelhouse for you.
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Jul 27, 2015 18:12
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Doodmons posted:PBtA is pretty much prefaced on the idea that rolls are loving dangerous but that there's a big reward for doing them. I think it's more the idea that every time you pick up the dice, something  should happen instead of "no you don't pick the lock, warrior your turn".
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Jul 27, 2015 23:05
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I just got the Elf/Dwarf/Halfling playbooks, and man, they're really cool. The "race as class" thing was something I didn't really understand, but reading the playbooks it makes choosing a fantastic race as a character in a world where humans are the norm really interesting and flavourful. In particular, the Elf and Dwarf crafting moves read really well and I like the Elf magic move a lot.
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Jul 28, 2015 20:16
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Every time those playbooks convince someone that the race-as-class thing was a good idea, I've done my job. Thank you!
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Jul 28, 2015 20:21
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Oh cool, I didn't know you had written those! Just a question, in Elder Arts, it says "Either way, you cannot use this move again until after you have Made Camp." Does this means that "either" as in "either success or miss", or does it refer solely to the qualifier you get on a miss?
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Jul 28, 2015 20:40
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The first, basically it should be taken as "no matter what you roll."
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Jul 28, 2015 20:58
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There is also an Orc playbook. Anyone have any thoughts on it? It was made by gnome7 it should be pretty could, considering his trackrecord, but anyone try it out?
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Jul 28, 2015 21:44
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Covok posted:There is also an Orc playbook. Anyone have any thoughts on it? It was made by gnome7 it should be pretty could, considering his trackrecord, but anyone try it out? That one was also made by RulebookHeavily actually, I just published it. The previous Race-as-class playbooks were published under Funhaver Games, who no longer exist, so I published the Orc for him. He also has a vampire and werewolf pair of race-as-class playbooks coming out whenever I get around to editing those, I've been a lazy butt and need to do that.
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Jul 29, 2015 00:44
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So, it was made by Rulebookheavily? Cool. Still a good track record behind it.
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Jul 29, 2015 00:50
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I ended up grabbing The Orc today after posting earlier, it's pretty cool too. Like his other RAC playbooks, it has a well-defined focus, guiding the character along a specific idea of orcish behaviour and giving the player cool stuff to do. Rulebook Heavily rules.
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Jul 29, 2015 02:33
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gnome7 posted:He also has a vampire and werewolf pair of race-as-class playbooks coming out whenever I get around to editing those, I've been a lazy butt and need to do that. I hope Space Ripper Stingy Eyes are on the table! 
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Jul 29, 2015 06:16
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Aw shucks.  The upcoming Vampire and Werewolf are sort of an experiment of mine. They're sort of halfway between being playbooks and CCs, with the idea being that any kind of character can become a vampire or werewolf. We'll see how it works out properly, I've only gotten one actual good playtest in of them!
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Jul 29, 2015 13:11
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I'd be excited to see how that plays out. Since playing with spirit of 77, I've been rather taken with the idea you're describing.
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Jul 29, 2015 13:31
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https://storify.com/Veliministriari/fellowship-hype Some news about what's going on with Fellowship, since I know a lot of people are interested in that.
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Jul 30, 2015 00:16
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gnome7 posted:https://storify.com/Veliministriari/fellowship-hype Some news about what's going on with Fellowship, since I know a lot of people are interested in that. If I could make one criticism from reading those posts, I think that the Overlord's current third agenda point might be misinterpreted by some. "Follow your plan" might be misinterpreted by those unfamiliar with PbtA as "plan before the session and stick to it." As you no doubt know, that doesn't really work with the idea behind the system. If could dare make a suggestion, maybe "Remember Your Goal" or something else instead. I could be overreacting, of course. Overall, by the way, looks like a really cool game you have in the works there. It skews traditional in all the right ways while, ironically, being based around the most traditional thing in the hobby. I'm really looking forward to seeing this finished.
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Jul 30, 2015 00:32
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I really like that there's room for creating weird new races with the harbringer. Is there an outright human race, or is that just something you make with the heir/harbringer/squire/overlord? Edit: Overlord is amazing, best DMing system ever, this is literally the Cucumber Quest RPG Wrestlepig fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Jul 30, 2015 |
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Jul 30, 2015 00:45
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chaos rhames posted:I really like that there's room for creating weird new races with the harbringer. Is there an outright human race, or is that just something you make with the heir/harbringer/squire/overlord? The Heir is explicitly The Human (although one of their CC options lets them be very weird humans). The Harbinger can be human, but they're meant to be the too-powerful tag-a-long character like Gandalf - the strong, wise mentor who rarely steps in, which is mechanically reinforced by Harbingers taking damage more easily than everyone else and needing to pay a price every time they cast an attack spell. They can be human, but they are just as often angel people or dragonborn or blind space prophets. The Squire actually picks a race from a different player and plays as a labor-class member of their people - think Samwise Gamgee. And The Overlord can be whateeeever they want. Covok posted:If I could make one criticism from reading those posts, I think that the Overlord's current third agenda point might be misinterpreted by some. "Follow your plan" might be misinterpreted by those unfamiliar with PbtA as "plan before the session and stick to it." As you no doubt know, that doesn't really work with the idea behind the system. If could dare make a suggestion, maybe "Remember Your Goal" or something else instead. I could be overreacting, of course. That is a fair criticism and something easily fixed so I'll play around with the wording a bit before stuff goes out. I've been working on this game for nearly a year now and I am excited to have something cool to show for it.
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Jul 30, 2015 00:57
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Fellowship is probably the game I'm most excited for out of anything, and I think you're doing really good work.
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Jul 30, 2015 05:21
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Considering Gandalf actually is angel and, IIRC, using magic wasn't something he can just do willy nilly, the harbringer makes a lot sense. Then again, you probably knew that. Just to be sure, the Overlord can choose himself to be the player who levels up at the end of the session as long as they aren't the highest level? A way of both keeping the Overlord around the party's level and ensuring the party gives out level ups evenly? Since, the overlord is going to pick her or his self to level up first time as someone else levels up, next time they'll be tied with the other person so she or he can choose themselves again, and then they can't level up more if the party gives level ups evenly because they will be highest level?
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Jul 30, 2015 05:26
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Covok posted:Considering Gandalf actually is angel and, IIRC, using magic wasn't something he can just do willy nilly, the harbringer makes a lot sense. Then again, you probably knew that. Yes, yes, and also yes, that is exactly how the level up mechanic works.
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Jul 30, 2015 07:44
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Gnome I'm pretty excited with what I've read so far, you're doing a dope job and I'm looking forward to Fellowship! I also just wrote to you to get in on the playtest
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Jul 30, 2015 08:37
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Yes, how do you get a chance to get in on this playtest? It seems like an awesome game to test run.
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Jul 30, 2015 09:28
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Covok posted:Yes, how do you get a chance to get in on this playtest? It seems like an awesome game to test run. There's some info at the top of the storify I posted earlier in the thread. Send me an email and I will send you a playtest copy when I have those to send.
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Jul 30, 2015 09:57
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The Overlord as the GM's PC reminds me of the Ryuujin from Ryuutama. Was that an inspiration for you? Also, I'm very hype about this.
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Jul 30, 2015 10:29
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Ratpick posted:The Overlord as the GM's PC reminds me of the Ryuujin from Ryuutama. Was that an inspiration for you? I have Ryuutama but I never actually read through it yet, so no, it wasn't really. It was as much based on things like Cucumber Quest where the Nightmare Knight is as important a main character as anyone else in the cast, and I thought it'd be fun to give the GM someone specific to play as while they do their thing. It was a full year ago when I started writing Fellowship so I can't even say I remember exactly what the inspiration was anymore, but there's a lot of stories out there these days where the big villain at the end of the quest has more personality than half the cast and spends a lot of time doing things themselves. Nox from Wakfu, the Nightmare Knight, Zuko from the first season of Avatar: The Last Airbender. The Overlord is a really big part of what makes Fellowship different, and it went through a lot of different versions, but I think I've finally got it somewhere where it can function meaningfully and in an interesting fashion. It's current incarnation is basically taking Dungeon World's GM moves to their logical extreme.
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Jul 30, 2015 12:40
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