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CommieGIR posted:Different localities, different situations. If we had the sort of rampant poverty and constant civil war going on, I'd be willing to bet we'd have more of that. yes, exactly - american muslims also tend conservative (or used to, anyway), but even the most unpleasant types aren't generally outright murderous
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Jul 30, 2015 17:42
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:Criticizing a religion is not the same as calling for mass killings, holy poo poo what is wrong with you. And of course I'm not saying that. I am saying that the people who are merely "criticizing a religion" happen to also extremely often call for and justify mass killings of people in that religion, and use their criticism of that religion as justification for it. Although anti-Muslims using their criticism of Islam to call for mass killing is admittedly slightly less likely than their using their criticism of Islam to justify and call for the legalized discrimination of its adherents, if only because unlike with calls for war where there may the occasional pacifist anti-Muslim, literally 100% of them do support discrimination and justify it in that way. Tezzor fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Jul 30, 2015 |
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Jul 30, 2015 18:20
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V. Illych L. posted:yes, exactly - american muslims also tend conservative (or used to, anyway), but even the most unpleasant types aren't generally outright murderous Pretty much. Even the more 'Fundamentalist' Muslims that emigrate to the US are usually fleeing sectarian violence and don't want to bring that over with them.
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Jul 30, 2015 18:26
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Fizzil posted:Thats a shia thing mostly, Even moreso, isn't it exclusive to the twelvers, narrowing it down even more? In addition, hasn't there been level after level of hierarchy added, with grand ayatollah being a fairly new creation? I don't believe Ismailis or Zaydis have them. With that being said, I believe that if you wanted the best comparison of Catholicism to an Islamic sect, you would probably look at not only the evolution but the actual governance of the Nizari Ismailis. In terms of the community, tithing, and central powerhead (Aga Khan), it does seem a lot alike. They even had a rather interesting parallel historical aspect and touched each other, so to speak, during the crusades. I forget which one, though. Thanks for this thread - I am learning a lot and appreciate this discourse.
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Jul 30, 2015 22:04
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Jiro Kage posted:Even moreso, isn't it exclusive to the twelvers, narrowing it down even more? In addition, hasn't there been level after level of hierarchy added, with grand ayatollah being a fairly new creation? I don't believe Ismailis or Zaydis have them. With that being said, I believe that if you wanted the best comparison of Catholicism to an Islamic sect, you would probably look at not only the evolution but the actual governance of the Nizari Ismailis. In terms of the community, tithing, and central powerhead (Aga Khan), it does seem a lot alike. They even had a rather interesting parallel historical aspect and touched each other, so to speak, during the crusades. I forget which one, though. I mean, even if you are talking about Shia twelver Muslims, it's not like there is only one Marja, there are a bunch. I have some friends that used to be super active in Shia communities online, and there used to be some really hilarious profane (cussin') arguments whenever Fadlallah came up because he was considered a valid Marja to follow but his rulings were frequently more liberal than what Iranian Marja's tended to rule. It got to the point where, when Fadlallah died, his office refused to switch to a different living Marja and kept giving rulings in Fadlallah's style, it's kind of ghoulish and hilarious. The best part of the Shia Marja's in Iran is that you can straight up email the office of just about any of them asking for a ruling on something and get a response. When I was a kid I emailed the office of Sistani (iirc?) and got a ruling back on griefing in MMOs and trolling online forums. Mormon Star Wars fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jul 30, 2015 |
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Jul 30, 2015 22:12
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V. Illych L. posted:if we're talking just islam vs christianity in general it's germane imo, you don't have many IS types running around threatening to murder people in america We are in fact experiencing a brief lull in death squad activity, but the world used to look to us to see how it was done 
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Jul 30, 2015 22:54
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Mormon Star Wars posted:The best part of the Shia Marja's in Iran is that you can straight up email the office of just about any of them asking for a ruling on something and get a response. When I was a kid I emailed the office of Sistani (iirc?) and got a ruling back on griefing in MMOs and trolling online forums. What was the response??
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Jul 30, 2015 23:17
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MrNemo posted:It's in reference to the idea mentioned earlier by posters in this thread that Islam is somehow more predisposed as a religion to this kind of extremist violence, that somehow Islam is fundamentally 'worse' as a religion than other Abrahamic and non-Abrahamic faiths in this regard and that effort should be applied to basically extinguish Islam either as any kind of political force or as a religion altogether. Now I'm not sure how the former would be done and I don't think anyone in this thread has explicitly called for the latter (save anyone who's called for the end of all Religion) but if people accept that Christians in a similar situation would organise into similar violent groups then it's pretty hard to argue that Islam is somehow inherently more violent. MrNemo posted:For practical purposes today, it doesn't make a huge difference but it's important enough to mention when these kind of discussions can become tinged with a dehumanising aspect. Even if posters don't realise it, I'd say claiming that a fundamental aspect of someone's life and worldview predisposes them to be more violent than other people of the world and should be treated accordingly isn't really any different than saying 'those' people are inherently more violent and cops just have to be more prepared to use their firearms when dealing with them. "fundamental aspect of someone's life and worldview"? Unless you're going to start claiming that people don't actually believe what they say they do; religions aren't nebulous "culture", they're statements about how the actual universe works. Those aren't "fundamental" at all, I'm wrong about things all the time...
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Jul 30, 2015 23:32
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hypnorotic posted:What was the response?? It's permissible to strongly state views that you actually have knowing that it will make people freak out and get mad, but pretending to have opinions you actually don't hold in order to get a rise out of people is impermissible because it's a falsehood, causes strife, and doing things to make people angry violates the rules for joking.
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Jul 30, 2015 23:32
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Mormon Star Wars posted:I mean, even if you are talking about Shia twelver Muslims, it's not like there is only one Marja, there are a bunch. I have some friends that used to be super active in Shia communities online, and there used to be some really hilarious profane (cussin') arguments whenever Fadlallah came up because he was considered a valid Marja to follow but his rulings were frequently more liberal than what Iranian Marja's tended to rule. It got to the point where, when Fadlallah died, his office refused to switch to a different living Marja and kept giving rulings in Fadlallah's style, it's kind of ghoulish and hilarious. That is in general an awesome thing about Muslim theology professional dorks. 
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Jul 30, 2015 23:33
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For more evidence of why all fundamentalist religion is poo poo and needs to be suppressed, see the guy who stabbed six people at the Jerusalem gay pride parade. Of course, since he's Jewish and not Muslim, it will be largely ignored that this was a terrorist act borne of lovely, toxic religious beliefs, and despite speaking out against it, I'll still be criticized and accused of racism by people like Tezzor next time I dare suggest extremist Islam is bad.
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Jul 30, 2015 23:55
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No religion is truly the religion of peace and even empiricism has been used to justify eugenics. Religion is all about what you bring to it. For many, Islam, even Islam that requires intense devotion, fills a hole in their lives others don't and is a critical part of their cultural heritage. I do take offense if they make unreasonable demands of others but that is not so much their religion as an authoritarian personality trait that exists to some extent in individuals within every religious movement.
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Jul 31, 2015 00:40
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SedanChair posted:We are in fact experiencing a brief lull in death squad activity, but the world used to look to us to see how it was done not sure i'd accept that the klan are a primarily christian group, though they obviously mix a weird christianity in with their odious racism their explicit rejection of universalism seems like it would make them pretty clearly heretical, at any rate
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Jul 31, 2015 00:47
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V. Illych L. posted:not sure i'd accept that the klan are a primarily christian group, though they obviously mix a weird christianity in with their odious racism the klan are christian under any reasonable definition
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Jul 31, 2015 01:03
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Gum posted:the klan are christian under any reasonable definition but are they primarily christian, in the sense that christianity is their motivating ideology? i'd say no, their main motivating ideology is white supremacy
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Jul 31, 2015 01:23
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Mormon Star Wars posted:It's permissible to strongly state views that you actually have knowing that it will make people freak out and get mad, but pretending to have opinions you actually don't hold in order to get a rise out of people is impermissible because it's a falsehood, causes strife, and doing things to make people angry violates the rules for joking. What are the rules for joking?
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Jul 31, 2015 01:24
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V. Illych L. posted:but are they primarily christian, in the sense that christianity is their motivating ideology? i'd say no, their main motivating ideology is white supremacy Christianity (Protestantism specifically) is/was an integral part of the Klan's particular brand of white supremacy. They occasionally targeted Catholics as well.
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Jul 31, 2015 01:26
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V. Illych L. posted:not sure i'd accept that the klan are a primarily christian group, though they obviously mix a weird christianity in with their odious racism This sounds like the same thing as "IS is unislamic because they are sectarian butchers" which has a kind of point, but not really.
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Jul 31, 2015 02:31
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ya, i guess
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Jul 31, 2015 02:31
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SedanChair posted:This sounds like the same thing as "IS is unislamic because they are sectarian butchers" which has a kind of point, but not really. Don't Daesh claim that mainstream Kurds are sectarian because they're not internationalist in their Sunni faith (if being generally secular wasn't bad enough)? I thought they were pan-Sunni.
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Jul 31, 2015 02:53
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Iowa Snow King posted:What are the rules for joking? Taking into consideration that scholars disagree with each other and that I am not a sheikh (so take my summary with a grain of salt) most Imams that I have read at least hold that you shouldn't tell lies when joking and shouldn't joke in a way that insults the prophet, and shouldn't joke to excess so that people think you are a clown. Basically stick to dadjokes.
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Jul 31, 2015 02:57
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even st. augustine didn't see a joke that was obviously not meant to be taken seriously (so the story of the two tomatoes crossing the road, for instance) as a Proper Lie so that's a pretty strict attitude
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Jul 31, 2015 03:01
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Oh, by the way, turns out that "Islamic" attack on women's right to sunbathe in parks was actually a gang fight.
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Jul 31, 2015 03:04
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Here are some pretty good muslim related stats from pew: http://www.pewresearch.org/topics/muslim-americans/pages/2/
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Jul 31, 2015 03:40
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Oh, by the way, turns out that "Islamic" attack on women's right to sunbathe in parks was actually a gang fight. Also turns out that daesh in Iraq did not actually impose FGM: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/isis-deny-ordering-fgm-girls-mosul So what daesh is doing already isn't bad enough; people have to make things up.
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Jul 31, 2015 08:05
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PT6A posted:For more evidence of why all fundamentalist religion is poo poo and needs to be suppressed, see the guy who stabbed six people at the Jerusalem gay pride parade. Of course, since he's Jewish and not Muslim, it will be largely ignored that this was a terrorist act borne of lovely, toxic religious beliefs, and despite speaking out against it, I'll still be criticized and accused of racism by people like Tezzor next time I dare suggest extremist Islam is bad. Extremist Islam is bad. Extremist beliefs of any kind are likely to be bad. For example: the opposition to radical Islam regularly going so far as support actions that have killed and continue to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people in foreign countries and that oppress, impoverish and discriminate against millions of innocent people at home.
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Jul 31, 2015 08:20
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Sethex posted:Here are some pretty good muslim related stats from pew: http://www.pewresearch.org/topics/muslim-americans/pages/2/ Pew is a pretty respectable source but it's certainly no "obvious racist trolls in a reddit thread" when it comes to unimpeachability Tezzor fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Jul 31, 2015 |
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Jul 31, 2015 08:24
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bitey posted:Also turns out that daesh in Iraq did not actually impose FGM: "Of course ISIS would deny this!" uh, no they wouldn't, their entire PR is based on being as cartoonishly evil as possible because apparently being Literally Skeletor actually attracts recruits. If they were doing this poo poo I'm pretty sure they'd wear it loud and proud. e: this is a response to a piece of the article, not to you, btw
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Jul 31, 2015 08:53
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Oh, by the way, turns out that "Islamic" attack on women's right to sunbathe in parks was actually a gang fight. A gang of muslim girls attacked a lone woman over her clothing. Move along, nothing to see here.
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Jul 31, 2015 13:32
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Dmitri-9 posted:A gang of muslim girls attacked a lone woman over her clothing. Move along, nothing to see here. Well the police who investigated the case seem to think so. But I understand. For too long, attacks by Muslims have been downplayed in the British tabloid media. When will we get a fair accounting of these roving packs of criminals goodsir
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Jul 31, 2015 15:10
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Can you imagine? A confrontation between a bunch of poor young women where one says another dresses like a slut and then there's a fight about it? How else could this happen but for the influence of Islam? I'm literally peeing myself imagining the immigrants taking my freedom
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Jul 31, 2015 15:18
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Imagine it's a confrontation about a parking space, and the victims are Muslims. It's much easier to construct motives in that case.
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Jul 31, 2015 15:28
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TheImmigrant posted:Imagine it's a confrontation about a parking space, and the victims are Muslims. It's much easier to construct motives in that case. Oh no, those allegations got dismissed because his wife said he was a cool dude.
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Jul 31, 2015 15:34
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Oh, by the way, turns out that "Islamic" attack on women's right to sunbathe in parks was actually a gang fight. I like that the comments are one incredibly long call of "noooooo" or "riiiiiiiiight."
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Jul 31, 2015 15:44
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Tezzor posted:Pew is a pretty respectable source but it's certainly no "obvious racist trolls in a reddit thread" when it comes to unimpeachability At this point, why do you waste everyone's time? Try an upvote or down vote anything in R/Islam; Notice how you can't? That is because participants in voting must be mod approved. So are the mods of r/islam racist trolls? Or are those voting in that thread mod approved Muslims making judgement about their own faith? Sethex fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Jul 31, 2015 |
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Jul 31, 2015 17:34
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computer parts posted:Oh no, those allegations got dismissed because his wife said he was a cool dude. Also a complete lack of evidence that it was a hate crime or in any way related to them being Muslim. bitey posted:Also turns out that daesh in Iraq did not actually impose FGM: Yea that's old now- when it first came out people went nuts, what is interesting is the utter lack of uproar (or anything really) to this day about the Kurdish practice FGM, which is incredibly common in Iraq/Syria. Maybe it's because people are relatively unaware of it since it's only been recently that they figured out the original studies on the subject from the late 90's / early 00's were completely flawed (they greatly under-estimated the % of FGM). Of course there are obvious political realities in play, but it's weird that you never hear anything about it considering: quote:Female Genital Mutilation or Cutting (FGM/C): 1 in 2 young girls (15-24) has experienced FGM/C when they were younger in Erbil and Sulaymaniyah governorates (Kurdistan Region). —UNICEF (2011) tsa fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Jul 31, 2015 |
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Jul 31, 2015 17:52
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Sethex posted:At this point, why do you waste everyone's time? gee i wonder why quote:
That thread was created 11 months ago and it's possible the voting policy is new. You can comment and post just fine, so yes it is indeed possible that even with mod approval some meager number - the top comment has 33 upvotes - of people who hate Muslims managed to get through. Or maybe they're all legit votes. It's not really relevant because even if they are the fact that you're citing an obscure reddit post to justify your beliefs is more than embarrassing enough without us having to get into its obvious fraudulence
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Jul 31, 2015 20:06
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V. Illych L. posted:their explicit rejection of universalism seems like it would make them pretty clearly heretical, at any rate Woah, woah, woah, are you really saying that any Christian who isn't a universalist isn't really a Christian? Whoops, there goes hundreds of millions of adherents! Universalism is actually the minority view, at least in America.
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Jul 31, 2015 20:22
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Tezzor posted:That thread was created 11 months ago and it's possible the voting policy is new. You can comment and post just fine, so yes it is indeed possible that even with mod approval some meager number - the top comment has 33 upvotes - of people who hate Muslims managed to get through. Or maybe they're all legit votes. It's not really relevant because even if they are the fact that you're citing an obscure reddit post to justify your beliefs is more than embarrassing enough without us having to get into its obvious fraudulence Fear not, I read the thread 11 months ago, the voting was that way then, feel free to PM a mod to confirm. So at this point you are projecting hypothetical conspiracy theories of anti-muslims infiltrating the voting base of the r/islam sub. If you want to continue demonstrating mental gymnastics check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam Let's say IF mainstream Islam was incompatible with Human rights, would it be wrong of me to think it needs to change?
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Jul 31, 2015 21:42
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Sethex posted:
In that case, Human Rights need to change so that they are no longer Islamophobic.
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Jul 31, 2015 21:59
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