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How did steam trains turn round when they pulled into a terminating station? Did another one go to the opposite end of the train and pull the carriages away?
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Jul 16, 2015 09:56
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It was complicated. You had station pilots which were little shunting engines which would marshal the carriages into another platform (if required) to release the engine. That would turn in a turn table then be reattached or another engine would be stuck on top. It was all horrifically inefficient but worked due to the restrictions of the technology.
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Jul 16, 2015 11:33
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I'm surprised you didn't know that, Metrication. Didn't you watch Thomas the Tank Engine? 
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Jul 16, 2015 12:44
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Go to York railway museum if you get the chance, I think it still has a turntable or two somewhere. Also lots of trains to look at.
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Jul 16, 2015 15:44
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You're correct about the p-way issue Bozza, the track on the Cumbrian Coast is being destroyed already. To put it into perspective, the week before the loco services came in, there was one temporary speed restriction in the late notice case. Now there are thirty.
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Jul 19, 2015 16:05
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fuckin' stealth livestock quote:A Southeastern spokesman said: “We get numerous calls about livestock on the line where we run trains through rural areas. When this happens, standard procedure is that we always run a train at caution – at slow speed – to see if there is any potential hazard. If nothing is found – which was the case last night at Chilham – then services are reverted to normal running. The incident at Chilham happened an hour and a half after the report that there was livestock on the track and services reverted back to normal only after checks were carried out and no livestock was found.”
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Jul 27, 2015 12:54
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I imagine the farmer is going to get a bollocking for that.
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Jul 27, 2015 12:59
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Why did he have to halt an approaching train? Would the previous signal not have been at a red aspect?
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Jul 27, 2015 15:33
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thehustler posted:Why did he have to halt an approaching train? Would the previous signal not have been at a red aspect? Presumably not on the oncoming line, otherwise trains would never be able to go past each other?
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Jul 27, 2015 15:46
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OwlFancier posted:Presumably not on the oncoming line, otherwise trains would never be able to go past each other? God I'm an idiot.
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Jul 27, 2015 16:54
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Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:fuckin' stealth livestock that iron tangy smell
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Jul 28, 2015 03:49
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I remember my colleagues once obliterated a flock of sheep coming round a corner at speed and stopped to report it to the signaller. The farmer came to chat to them, all the while in the background his dog was chowing down on the remains 
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Jul 28, 2015 15:47
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Waste not, want not.
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Jul 28, 2015 21:58
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I'm not sure its been posted but the BBC had a fascinating documentary about a severe rail crash in Japan and (more importantly) the circumstances that led up and contributed to it. (Also its sadly no suprise that privatisation plays a significant part.) It's a really good documentary so if you've got a spare hour give it a watch! http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03yfwk3/storyville-20132014-23-brakeless-why-trains-crash
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Jul 31, 2015 07:36
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I've been slowly ploughing through this thread and it's really, really fascinating, thank you for everyone's contributions! I'm sorry if this has already been posted in the thread, but I've always wanted to know what that occasional little chime you hear from the driver's cab is. You can hear it in this video at 0:55: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tez-yCL0m5k what is it?!?
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Jul 31, 2015 22:22
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My guess is it's the dead man's switch? I don't know how it is in Europe/Britain, but in the US locomotive engineers have to hit a button every minute or so to prove they're still conscious and driving the train etc etc, and I think there's a chime of some kind that goes off when they need to press the button. If they don't press the button in 10 or 15 seconds, the train automatically comes to an emergency stop. E: I guess technically it's an "alerter" not a dead man's switch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man%27s_switch#Locomotive
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Jul 31, 2015 22:32
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landofcake posted:I've been slowly ploughing through this thread and it's really, really fascinating, thank you for everyone's contributions! That's the AWS bell. You get that ding if the signal is green or you get a parp horn sound of the signal isn't green. I can give a potted history of this signalling system if you like.
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Jul 31, 2015 23:32
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Bozza posted:That's the AWS bell. You still owe us a post on level crossings.
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Jul 31, 2015 23:41
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Bozza posted:That's the AWS bell. Beaten like a red headed step child  It's handy for waking drivers up when there is a long distance between signals, so I'm told 
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Aug 1, 2015 00:28
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Hezzy posted:Where are you starting? Canberra.
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Aug 1, 2015 03:06
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Venmoch posted:I'm not sure its been posted but the BBC had a fascinating documentary about a severe rail crash in Japan and (more importantly) the circumstances that led up and contributed to it. (Also its sadly no suprise that privatisation plays a significant part.) This was absolutely fantastic. Give it a go, goons!
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Aug 1, 2015 22:04
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landofcake posted:I've been slowly ploughing through this thread and it's really, really fascinating, thank you for everyone's contributions! I wish to sue the channel operator for slander; these BR videos are clearly the exact opposite of "crap"
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Aug 1, 2015 23:18
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I posted the independent article written by a tube driver today, and someone reply with this: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/tube-strike-live-turns-out-you-cant-get-a-job-as-a-tube-driver-10440679.html That's a bit bad, isn't it?
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Aug 5, 2015 19:31
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I wouldn't say it was bad per se: my company agreed a policy recently where they will look to recruit drivers from existing staff first if there are suitable candidates. Driving is essentially the best job a normal employee can hope to get, as I understand it TfL has a similar policy where the people they are taking on as tube drivers have already worked on the underground in some capacity. So if someone wanted to become a tube driver from outside they could, they just need to get a job with TfL first and then apply internally. I can't remember the last driver to be taken 'off the street' at my depot (or indeed the neighbouring depot to mine) since I started and I've been on since 2008 (as a conductor from the street). Other grades are recruited from the street but the majority of driver applicants are internal. Partly because the jobs are desirable enough to ensure there are plenty of internal applicants. You can imagine how disgruntled the existing staff would be if they were to be constantly passed over for a driver's job (essentially a £20k pay rise for some) in favour of a fresh face off the street when they have given a decade or more of good service to the company. The other operational grades work the same hours as drivers for substantially less pay and worse conditions, often passenger facing and we know how pleasant that is. Edit: forgot to mention that from the employers perspective if they take on an internal candidate they know they are getting someone with a grasp of the rule book who can consistently turn in for shifts no matter how unsociable they are. It's happened before where conductors have trained off the street then decided they don't like they unsociable part of the job so throw a lot of sickies and drag out an inevitable exit. It costs a lot more to train a driver than a conductor so this is possibly another consideration. Bacon Terrorist fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 20:17
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Why would a company, especially one with a strictly controlled budget, recruit externally when they have an internal pool of labour (who are in theory known quantities) to pull from? Unless you're specifically looking to bring in new skills from outside I can't see why you wouldn't advertise jobs internally as a first step. e: ignore me, confused this with the ukmt Party Boat fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 22:08
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 Those of you with memories of Burnham's last government job will remember his massive success in persuading the NHS to bid for Hinchingbrooke Hospital.
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Aug 6, 2015 11:11
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I don't trust him as far as I can punt him down the road
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Aug 6, 2015 16:49
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It's just like the NHS: everything will LOOK like it's publically owned...
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Aug 6, 2015 20:57
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It's pretty much what the Scottish government have done for the last few years; have trains in a unified paint scheme and have a few "scotrail is operated by abelio" decals around. It hasn't worked.
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Aug 7, 2015 09:15
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TinTower posted:
And of course the great success of the private sector in turning things around there, both clinically and financially 
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Aug 7, 2015 09:25
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Classic huffpo journalism (rewriting an ASLEF press release from last year) but this is a useful reference http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/08/18/foreign-state-owned-railway-british-train-companies-revenue_n_8003970.html quote:Britain's Privatised Rail Network Makes Millions For Foreign State-Owned Train Companies
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Aug 20, 2015 11:58
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So apparently this is a thread meme or something? Maybe it’s time to talk about loving  LEVEL CROSSINGS. Anyway, just as a quick disclaimer, this is an almost entirely British perspective on the stupid things and if you are some type of Johnny Foreigner it will be accurate to a degree but the technology and rules will be different. First, let us cast our minds back to the turn of the 20th Century and examine the railway network. Hundreds of small and large signal boxes scatter the land, placed at intervals that allow trains to run (every mile / two miles on a busy line would be fairly standard), all individually manned and working on a block system enforced by law. Why is this important? Because it gives you an idea in how level crossings used to be managed with two major types: Gated crossings which are protected by these local signallers and open crossings which are in the middle of nowhere and aren’t. This split is important because it shows how the different types of crossings develop. Thrown also into the mix are a litany of foot crossings which retain public rights of way over the railway network. Manual Crossings: At their most pure, a manual level crossing is the same today as it was at the turn of the century. A signaller, co-located with the crossing, will close the road to traffic and clear their signals to allow a train to pass over the crossing. They know the train is approaching by bell signals given between signal boxes so climb out (or turn a big wheel) and shut big wicker gates across the road way. They then pull off on their protecting signals and their associated distant signals, a process which can take several minutes and must take place before the train driver can see the distant signal (the signal which indicates that he[1] must begin braking and expect the first stop signal to be at red. This of course annoys the road users but gently caress you, railway has right of way. These signal boxes can differ massively in their complexity. You could have a box like Truro (which still exists) which even following a massive slimming down in the 1980s, still controls infrastructure a large amount of local station infrastructure and signals for running trains alongside its local crossing. This is no way the most complicated of layouts but one I’m familiar with… In the 1950s, signallers would be controlling much more complex layouts directly with lever frames but the drawings of those are filed away in the archives. At the opposite end of the spectrum we have somewhere like Kintbury just outside Swindon (again a real location, that has just been automated) where the local crossing keeper (not even a signaller proper! There’s a hierarchy…) can open and close the gates across the road under the instruction of the controlling signal box when a road user requests to cross. No great skill, just a bloke in a hut opening and closing gates under instruction. So here we are and it’s now the 1950s. The post war socialist dream is almost a reality and the labour market in the UK is booming – wages are on the rise and British Rail is finding itself in a bit of a pickle. Firstly, the wage bill for these pissy little crossings is exploding and secondly no one wants to work in them because being sat around getting paid gently caress all to open and close some gates is not the world’s most thrilling occupation. So, after a bit of looking around they decide to copy technology from Europe and begin to introduce automatic crossings to allow them to shut these small crossing boxes and we start to see the introduction of Automatic Half Barrier (AHB) crossings. AHBs work on the premise that nobody is stupid enough to be in the way of the train (bold) so as the train approaches the crossing it triggers an electronic sequence that activates first yellow, then red flashing lights[2] closing a barrier across half of the road to prevent drivers from driving onto the railway but also allowing an egress if the driver is on the crossing when the barriers are closed on them. There is one quirk with this however, in that the crossing is totally unprotected against the approaching train, and the train is similarly unprotected against crossing misuse. Unlike the manually monitored crossing where a member of railway staff confirmed that the crossing was clear which then allowed them to pull off on the protecting signals, this automatic crossing relies on the road traffic getting the gently caress off the crossing and it being clear by the time the train arrives. This, of course, is problematic if you’re driving a great big gently caress off transformer across the railway and you make a balls up or if you’re a suicidal twat in a Land Rover… AHBs – shite an official Bozza opinion Parallel to this was the automation of previously open crossings which were simply an open road across the railway protected by little more than a big X and a signing saying “look out for trains, yeah?” Open crossings were always the highest risk of crossing because as we all know, the public are idiots, unable to judge the speed of an approaching train or the actual time it would take them to get across, leading to accidents. Open crossings still exist within the UK, usually across freight lines and are legally restricted from being used on lines which have a linespeed higher than 10mph. While some open crossings were converted to AHB type described above, there was a lower cost option also available. AHBs had come from the need to remove manned crossings from the network and as such there were failure indications which were taken back to the controlling signal box. In the case of failure, the signaller would have to stop the approaching trains as best they could and dispatch the S&T faulting technicians to sort it while running all trains over it at caution once a man on the ground was there to stop road traffic. Big pain in the arse but important due to the speed of approaching trains. For branch lines with open crossings, this wasn’t particularly palatable as it actually increased the overall workload, plus you had to find a way of getting these previously totally unindicated crossings to relay information back to the signaller which costs many pounds BR did not have. So another solution was found! ABCL and AOCLs (Automatic Barrier Crossing – Locally Monitored and Automatic Open Crossing – Locally Monitored respectively) are different flavours of the same thing. The approaching train triggers a sequence identical to the AHB on its approach, the lights flash and in the case of the ABCL, the barriers come down. The difference is then on what the train driver does as they approach these crossings. The ‘locally monitored’ in the name refers to the train driver and it is their responsibility to not clatter idiots. As the train approaches the crossing the driver can sight what is called the DCI (the drivers crossing indicator) which changes from flashing red to steady white if the crossing sequence has taken place correctly and this allows the driver to cross the crossing at the indicated line speed (usually 10 or 15mph but can be higher) IF THE LINE IS CLEAR. The warning indicators etc are laid out such that the driver can stop at the DCI in the case of crossing failure which therefore means that they should be able to stop short of some bellend who has decided to ignore the warnings and cross anyway. In the case of the crossing failing, the driver comes to a stop, sounds their horn and can proceed at walking pace (3mph) across the crossing. This obviously has an operational impact but isn’t a total job stopper like an AHB failure. Why the distinction between AOCL and ABCL? Nominally it’s to do with road traffic volumes but is more directly linked to how much money that particular region of BR had at the time they were installed. In all of the above automated solutions you will notice that there has been a total removal of the human being from the equation and this is not always possible. For areas with high speed approaches (both road and rail), with high traffic density or just because there is a high likelihood of incursion require use of the Mark 1 Eyeball. As previously mentioned, this historically meant that the human collocated with the crossing checked the road was clear after closing the road to traffic and then released the signals within their signal box. This went somewhat out of the window as signalling systems were rationalised using that new-fangled electricity and signallers now controlled tens of miles rather than a couple. Initially, this was sorted by maintaining the former signal boxes as crossing boxes, removing the overall responsibility for running trains from the newly christened crossing keeper but retaining the individual there to provide a “slot” to the protecting signals to confirm the crossing was clear. It was a good interim, you downgraded the signal box to a crossing box (so you can pay them less) while you’ve also wiped out all the non-crossing boxes and reduced your overall workforce and built a more efficient signalling system. However, over time, this still wasn’t the most desirable situation and further automation was pushed for. Firstly this came in the form of the closed circuit television camera. Crossing boxes were closed and their barrier systems automated, when the closure sequence had taken place (these are the full barrier crossings which totally enclose the railway), the remote signaller would then utilise a high tech black and white camera to check there wasn’t anyone trapped on the crossing and hit a big button marked “Crossing Clear” allowing the protecting signals to step up and trains to pass over it. The difference with this system versus the local signaller is that once the crossing has been deemed to be clear, the signaller essentially washes their hands of it meaning that if you are a special kind of idiot you can jump the barriers and run across if you so choose with zero things protecting you from the approaching high speed train… This very slight change in responsibility becomes important later. Full barrier crossings which use this sort of arrangement are known as MCB-CCTV, MCB referring to Manually Controlled Barriers as they still rely on positive confirmation that the crossing is clear before the protecting signals are allowed to show aspects other than red. …and so it was for nearly 30 years! The big issue for a lot of locations was that as technology allowed signallers to control increasingly large areas of the railway (in the future there will likely be a single signaller in Didcot who controls all of Cornwall and parts of Devon, rather than the 11 who do it today…) meant that their ergonomic workload was increasing, and in areas where there were a high number of crossings which required a human to look and check that crossings were clear was becoming almost a job in itself. Not good when your whole push is to try and eliminate those dastardly signallers and their salaries. So we again looked to Europe for a solution and found one – in the form of obstacle detectors and the MCB-OD crossing. This is the new vogue in level crossing technology within the UK as managers see it as the ultimate way to shut down small crossing boxes without totally breaking the workload of the main signaller. OD works almost identically to an MCB-CCTV crossing, train approaches crossing, auto lower sequence is called, lights flash and barriers close. Then the important distinction – the Mark 1 Eyeball is now replaced with a RADAR and LIDAR system which scans the crossing for potential obstacles which then electronically presses the “crossing clear” button if nothing is detected. It then turns off (as noted above, once the button is hit, tough titty if you decide to jump the barriers). These sorts of crossings have started their roll out around the UK where sites are deemed suitable, but have suffered quite a few teething problems which have not made the signalling fraternity overly enamoured with them, to the annoyance of our colleagues in ops who think they’re the bees knees for getting rid of signallers. The original designs from the continent only featured the RADAR system which was good enough for protecting the train from hitting a car, horse or upright human who happened to be crossing the crossing when they shouldn’t be but couldn’t detect anything below about half a metre in height. This includes cyclists who have fallen off their bikes or wee kiddies who have decided to have a nap nap on the railway tracks. As this is Britain not some chancer country who doesn’t care about it small children or cyclists, ‘ELF AND SAFETY decided this was not acceptable, hence the introduction of the LIDAR. The LIDAR system utilises a laser scanning system to detect objects below the half metre height and therefore the British system does not go about killing people who have fallen off their bikes. However, some eejit decided that this laser system would have its lens totally exposed to the elements at all times and the first slightly bad winter on a crossing near a farm in Yorkshire showed why this might not have been the brightest idea as the mud and snow was splattered on the lens and the system showed a constant detection, eventually failing and trains brought to a grinding halt. Genius. This issue is mostly eliminated now with the lens opening up and scanning when it needs to, minimising the problem but this sort of crappy design didn’t exactly enamour the signalling engineering people, or indeed the signallers who were left to manage rakes of failed crossings. Sheffield Panel still spit if you mention OD crossings. So that is road crossings… Part 2 – foot and farm crossings Footpath crossings are by and large the most dangerous crossings on the network to the user. Lots of time and effort has gone into protecting road crossings due to the risk of a train smashing into a car poses to the passengers, where as your flesh and bones will simply get blown to bits only causing a bit of PTSD for the train driver and an inconvenience for everyone else. As such, the level of protection is probably described by basic at best. For most footpath crossings, there is little than a sign saying “look both ways for trains” and some wooden boards to make your way across the line. Approaching trains will whistle 8 seconds before they reach the crossing and if you happen to be stood in the way you’ll get flattened. That’s your lot. In some instances, the user is provided with some additional protection – this can be in the form of a white light (cross only when light is illuminated) or a small set of traffic lights known as an MSL, miniature stop light, crossing. In some cases, these crossings are backed up by a set of wicket gates which electrically lock if it isn’t safe to cross. These work off the occupation of the train detection on the approach to the crossing, giving the user positive confirmation that no train is approaching or about to approach as they cross the crossing. Sadly, the layout of train detection is not usually suited to the convenience of the user, sometimes 1000m in length and leaving the pedestrian stood waiting for a train the never seems to come, leading to misuse. A more modern approach is the level crossing predictor system, such as the Bombardier Ebigate system which induces a signal into the rails and monitors the approaching train, allowing for a consistent warning time for the user and provides a higher level of protection. The initial trials have had a bit of teething problems but broadly I think we will see these rolled out more and more as the focus has shifted towards risk to individuals using these sorts of crossings. Of course, the safest sort of crossing is a closed crossing and Network Rail has made it a point to shut these sorts of footpath crossings wherever possible as it gives a total elimination of risk. This puts the railway in direct conflict with the crossing users, which in some cases is negligible (crossing closed, no bother) or ends up going to a tribunal, usually backed by the UK Open Spaces and ramblers organisations who forever fight for their right to wander across railway tracks. In some cases, they may have a point, where the crossing provides good foot access and an alternative route is too far away, where others I struggle to see how they can safely use the crossing, let along on the supposed regularity they do. Case in point, Wantage Road, which until recently was a totally unprotected foot crossing where the user had to cross two freight loops and two 125mph running lines ON A BEND that had little to no sighting distance. I have a track safety pass and you wouldn’t catch me doing that so god knows how nobody has been killed (jokes, it’s cos nobody uses it but that didn’t stop the ramblers from protesting). It’s a tricky situation as cash is tight and providing hundred thousand quid solutions to tiny little foot crossings with no traffic is not seen as the best way to spend the fare box and tax payers money. Farm and User Worked Crossings are a special breed – usually used by private individuals to cross the railway where they do have a distinct right of way, such as a farmer accessing a field. These are gated and padlocked with the user required to ring the signaller before crossing and obtaining permission (with protecting signals placed at danger if they are available). In a lot of cases, the biggest risk from these crossings is laziness, with users not ringing up or not shutting gates behind them – a noted pain in the arse when you’ve got to cross the railway 5 times to successfully get over – walk across to open gates, walk back to tractor, drive tractor across, walk across again to close gates and walk back again to the other side. There’s been a bit of movement about providing power operated gates to minimise this and hopefully encourage users to do things properly rather than be naughty boys and get themselves into trouble when sheep escape onto the line. So there we have it, a potted history and look at the level crossings of Great Britain – I will now take questions from the floor [1] – trains (and train drivers) are almost exclusively male, like boats and cars are female [2] – the reason level crossings, and infrastructure like swing bridges, use flashing red rather than the steady red stop signal is because the emergency services displaying a flashing blue light have the authority to pass through a red light, but never through a flashing red light. Subtle but important distinction.
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Aug 22, 2015 13:16
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Aug 22, 2015 13:19
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Is... Is that a mirage?
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Aug 22, 2015 13:56
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It's so beautiful 
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Aug 22, 2015 14:00
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tl;dr
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Aug 22, 2015 14:14
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I never really understood how people (other than injured, kids and so on) managed to get hit by trains on foot crossings. Trains are pretty loud.
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Aug 22, 2015 16:14
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If it's a windy day and a fast train, I can see how it might be possible to miss 'em. I recall a railway safety dude came to my school once and gave a presentation that was essentially "People are really, really stupid and trains are subtler than you might think coming around a bend at a hundred miles an hour." Mostly I remember that guy for grumping that if any of us were killed on the line, those short haircuts would mean he'd have to use two hands to pick up our dumb heads from the line we shouldn't have been on. Also, great effortpost Bozza. I'm learnin' things, whee. Sundayturks fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Aug 22, 2015 |
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Aug 22, 2015 16:50
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Peel posted:I never really understood how people (other than injured, kids and so on) managed to get hit by trains on foot crossings. Trains are pretty loud. Someone near me got hit by a train. He was walking down the tracks with headphones on, the guys in the train saw him and held down the horn but the kid never noticed.
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Aug 22, 2015 17:05
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Peel posted:I never really understood how people (other than injured, kids and so on) managed to get hit by trains on foot crossings. Trains are pretty loud. I travelled along the Preston - Ormskirk line a fair amount for work in the last 12 months, and it has several of those foot crossings. 8 seconds isn't as long as you might think it is, especially with many tons of train coming your way. It also has a level crossing where the traffic get enraged at how long it takes the signal box operator to hand the driver the large slab of wood allowing him to move on, but I'm sure that's another effortpost.
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Aug 22, 2015 17:26
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