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Hazzard posted:So I'm slowly making my way through this thread and have a paper to write on the 30 Years War. Can someone recommend some books for me? I'd go with Peter H. Wilson's Europe's Tragedy.
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Aug 1, 2015 09:10
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Late to the party, but German is such a descriptive language:  Also, that guy spiritually talking to Thatcher from heaven
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Aug 1, 2015 09:30
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Tias posted:
Did Satan's minions invade the Heaven at some point?
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Aug 1, 2015 10:28
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100 Years Ago We've done Helles and ANZAC, so let's riddle out what the hell's going on at Suvla Bay. The attacks are planned for five days' time. Herbert Sulzbach has arrived at yet another charming spot in a quiet sector, the jammy sod. French higher command is beginning to emit a few noxious rumblings in the direction of General Joffre, and these cannot be blamed on a shipment of garlic eclairs. ArchangeI posted:"So how about this: Both sides launch their nuclear missiles, but they, like, aim for sparsely populated areas, like Alaska and central Siberia. Everyone cool with that? Hello? Is this thing working?" You wouldn't believe how much I laughed when I was comparing the slam-bang start of WWI to the rather more sedate WWII, wrote the words "Phoney War", and realised that Grey's idea was nothing so much as 25 years before its time...
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Aug 1, 2015 10:30
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Kemper Boyd posted:I'd go with Peter H. Wilson's Europe's Tragedy. if you're an undergrad or high school student, don't forget to take a look at Experiencing the Thirty Years War: A Brief History with Documents and The Thirty Years War: A Documentary History Hazzard posted:I've got a cursory knowledge of the War and the events leading up to it, but most of the books I've read so far have somehow given me an English Nationalist perspective on it, if such a thing is possible. england small edit: i am pretty sure that wallenstein or richielieu personally are wealthier than that country HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 12:43 on Aug 1, 2015 |
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Aug 1, 2015 12:33
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For more entertaining anecdotes, be sure to use your neighborhood time travelling device to obtain a copy of H. Gal's Big Book of Saxon War Crime Humor.
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Aug 1, 2015 12:37
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Thanks for the flamethrower stuff. I did notice it said in that big flamethrower diagram that flamethrower guys tended to be executed because their weapon was hated - does anyone have any anecdotes about what line soldiers thought of them? How does one get to be a flamethrower guy in WW1 or WW2? Do they volunteer? Do they pick out exceptionally strong guys? Do they get treated any different from other troops? HEY GAL posted:depends on what sort of paper you're writing, tbh. what's your topic? what's your approach? how many entertaining anecdotes do you want? I don't know about him but I want all of the entertaining anecdotes. Thanqol fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Aug 1, 2015 |
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Aug 1, 2015 13:38
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HEY GAL posted:depends on what sort of paper you're writing, tbh. what's your topic? what's your approach? how many entertaining anecdotes do you want? HEY GAL posted:if you're an undergrad or high school student, don't forget to take a look at HEY GAL posted:this is really funny, because for everyone except the Elector and Electress Palatine (who are really hoping for help from James), the response to England is usually that the English, Scottish, and Irish make good soldiers individually but the English kingdom is kind of pathetic and irrelevant. every now and then they try some sort of expeditionary operation, which fails On England itself, the Stuarts had inherited a Kingdom without any rise in taxes on the ruling classes, despite 600% inflation. They had excuses. And delusions of grandeur. It hasn't really covered individuals or what life was like for the soldiers themselves so far, which is where I am looking for more information. Hazzard fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Aug 1, 2015 |
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Aug 1, 2015 13:50
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One crazy thing that Wilson points out is that more Britons than Swedes fought in the war. (Without achieving much of anything for Britain.)
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Aug 1, 2015 14:06
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P-Mack posted:One crazy thing that Wilson points out is that more Britons than Swedes fought in the war. (Without achieving much of anything for Britain.) there are just not that many swedes, ok and the number was falling all the time
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Aug 1, 2015 14:07
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 Germany --------------- Flammenwerfer 35 - Weight: 79 lbs; 3.1 gallons of flammable liquid; Max 15 bursts, effective range of 27 yards, max range 33 yards. Flammenwerfer 41 - Weight: 49 lbs; 2 gallons of flammable liquid; Max 8 bursts, effective range 22 yards, max range 33 yards. Einstoss Flammenwerfer 46 - One-shot/single-use device. Initially conceived to be used by paratroopers. Weight: 4 lbs; 0.45 gallons of flammable liquid, effective range 30 yards, max range 44 yards. Japan ---------- Type 93 Flamethrower - Weight: 55 lbs; 3.25 gallons of Flammable liquid, enough for 10 seconds; range 23 to 27 meters. Type 100 Flamethrower - Weight: 55 lbs; 3.25 gallons of flammable liquid, enough for 10 to 12 seconds; range 25 to 30 yards. Italy ------- Lanciaflamme Spalleggiabile Modello 1935 (and 1940) - Weight: 22 lbs; 29 litres of flammable liquid; Max 25-30 one-second bursts, max range 27 feet. United States ---------------------- M1A1 Flamethrower - Weight: 70 lbs; 4 gallons of flammable liquid allowing between 8 to 10 seconds of fire; range 41 to 45 meters. M2(-2) Flamethrower - Weight: 62 to 72 lbs; 4 gallons of flammable liquid allowing for 8 to 9 seconds of fire; range 25 to 40 yards. United Kingdom -------------------------- No 2 Flamethrower Mk 1 - Weight: 64 lbs; 4 gallons of flammable liquid allowing 10 seconds of fire; range 27 to 36 meters. Harvey Flamethrower - Weight: Unknown; 28 gallons of flammable liquid giving 12 seconds of fire; range 50 to 60 yards. Russia ----------- ROKS-2 Flamethrower - Weight: 50 lbs; 2 gallons of flammable liquid allowing for 6 to 8 seconds of fire; range 40 to 50 yards. ROKS-3 Flamethrower - Weight: 50 lbs; 5 gallons of flammable liquid allowing between 8 to 10 seconds of fire; range 23 to 27 meters. There are other flamethrowers out there, but none that my books have info on and I didn't want to use wikipedia as a source. Source: Fighting Men of World War 2 : Axis Forces Small Arms: A visual encyclopedia Encyclopedia of Weapons of World War 2 
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Aug 1, 2015 14:57
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HOT MOM. I love everything written on that cheesy pin up.
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Aug 1, 2015 15:01
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SeanBeansShako posted:HOT MOMA.
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Aug 1, 2015 15:08
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I feel like taping a sheet of white flammable paper to your exploding incendiary backpack is not the best of ideas.
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Aug 1, 2015 15:35
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Fangz posted:I feel like taping a sheet of white flammable paper to your exploding incendiary backpack is not the best of ideas. Well, it's not gonna add much if the exploding backpack goes.
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Aug 1, 2015 15:37
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Fangz posted:I feel like taping a sheet of white flammable paper to your exploding incendiary backpack is not the best of ideas. "If the paper is on fire, I have exploded. -Mr. Flamethrower"
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Aug 1, 2015 15:42
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Fangz posted:I feel like taping a sheet of white flammable paper to your exploding incendiary backpack is not the best of ideas. This is a chain of decisions that began with strapping an exploding incendiary backpack on, its not like it could get much worse.
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Aug 1, 2015 15:47
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Keldoclock posted:The U.S. in the late 40s is not a nuclear power like the U.S. in the 70s. Yeah, in the very early Cold War, America didn't have a Nuclear stockpile. Los Alamos was mostly abandoned for a time after World War 2. When Truman was trying to bluff the Soviets during the Berlin blockage, he asked how many nuclear bombs could be made at Los Alamos, and got back the answer "Maybe one" in a short amount of time. There were only sixteen B-29s with the "silverplate" modifications to drop a nuclear weapon, and none of those were sent to Europe during the crisis. This caused some changes - a new team was assembled to turn the Nagasaki bomb into something with safety features and interchangeable parts, and to crank up production. Still, in the late 1940s, the bomb was more a bluff than a reality.
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Aug 1, 2015 16:03
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I should probably have mentioned I have access to a local university library. I'll make a list tomorrow and post it, but they all look fairly old. I'll take a picture and make a list tomorrow.
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Aug 1, 2015 18:09
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Nenonen posted:Did Satan's minions invade the Heaven at some point? No, but Thatcher does mention that it'd be more fitting that she be called "the hot iron lady", in broken English 
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Aug 1, 2015 19:38
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Thanqol posted:Thanks for the flamethrower stuff. I did notice it said in that big flamethrower diagram that flamethrower guys tended to be executed because their weapon was hated - does anyone have any anecdotes about what line soldiers thought of them? Special and heavy weapons like flamethrowers and bazookas would generally be distributed as "X per every platoon" or "X per every battalion" throughout the history of modern military. In the US, flamethrowers and bazookas would be operated by 2 or 3-man teams that were effectively treated as independent units, which would be moved around by the commanding officer independent of the rest of the platoon. Being chosen is a matter of the Army telling you that you're chosen. After basic training an American soldier is told their MOS (basically their job), and while they can request specific ones the military is not obligated to honor that request and will assign people as needed. While it's preferable to pick people who will naturally be good at the position (the smartest guys get technical work, the biggest guys get handed the heaviest poo poo, etc.), the Army is notorious for assigning people regardless of their qualifications and traits. I haven't heard any accounts of troops hating or really having any strong opinion of flamethrower men on their own side, but you can bet they'd prioritize an enemy with one and probably be pretty pissed if he burned anyone to death before getting subdued.
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Aug 1, 2015 19:50
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Nenonen posted:Did Satan's minions invade the Heaven at some point? Nah, someone finally got Scotland those three million shovels. 
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Aug 1, 2015 19:53
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Arrath posted:This is a chain of decisions that began with strapping an exploding incendiary backpack on, its not like it could get much worse. Dunno, how likely would it be to explode? I suppose if a tank was hit by shrapnel then it could violently fall apart, but most likely you would have been hit by shrapnel anyway. A smaller bullet puncture on one of the tanks might have just fizzled out, if it was the nitrogen tank, or sprayed all fuel out if it was a fuel tank, which of course would be dangerous if there was a flame.
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Aug 1, 2015 20:07
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Nenonen posted:Dunno, how likely would it be to explode? I suppose if a tank was hit by shrapnel then it could violently fall apart, but most likely you would have been hit by shrapnel anyway. A smaller bullet puncture on one of the tanks might have just fizzled out, if it was the nitrogen tank, or sprayed all fuel out if it was a fuel tank, which of course would be dangerous if there was a flame. Not particularly, because you need an ignition source in the same place. In order to make an effective weapon out of it, you need the fuel to be pretty stable and slow burning. Quoth the wiki: quote:The risk of a flamethrower operator being caught in the explosion of his weapon due to enemy hits on the tanks is exaggerated in Hollywood films. However, there are cases where the pressure tanks have exploded and killed the operator when hit by enemy bullets or grenade shrapnel. In the documentary Vietnam in HD, platoon sergeant Charles Brown tells of how one of his men was killed when his flamethrower was hit by grenade shrapnel during the battle for Hill 875.
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Aug 1, 2015 21:22
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Just finished The Sleepwalkers per this thread's recommendations, and I highly recommend it myself to anyone interested in the causes of WW1 and the events that lead up to it. More than anything I'm struck by the critical role Russia played in starting the war, when I'd always previously seen the Russian role in the various crises of late 19th century and early 20th century Europe downplayed, and by how even then every major player in Europe seemed to regard Austria-Hungary as a has-been, treating it more like a minor power than one of the European greats with the certain perks in diplomacy and external security the other European powers assumed.
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Aug 1, 2015 21:59
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They did so ever since the Austro-Prussian War. By the end of the 19th Century it was obvious that it were the Prussians that dealt the cards in Central Europe.
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Aug 1, 2015 23:44
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Not entirely. The impression I got from The Sleepwalkers regarding Germany heading into WW1 was that they thought Austria's beef with Serbia was legitimate and only started mobilizing because the Russians did, mostly because the Russians had a boner for the Turkish Straits that could be seen from orbit and saw supporting Serbian irredentism as the best option towards that end at that time short of direct war with the Ottomans which the Russian leadership likely would not agree to.
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Aug 1, 2015 23:51
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P-Mack posted:Supposedly it was named after Zuo by American immigrants from Hunan as a regional pride thing. There's a documentary about it just released on Netflix that I haven't got around to watching yet. I watched the film last week, it was okay to good, mostly about the modern immigrant experience of Chinese-Americans. I was surprised just how much all the Hunanese folk interviewed loved, gushing praise for his virtue and loyalty etc. I'd assume that with the official party line being very pro-Taiping his reputation would suffer for his role in putting it all down.
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Aug 2, 2015 00:11
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chitoryu12 posted:Special and heavy weapons like flamethrowers and bazookas would generally be distributed as "X per every platoon" or "X per every battalion" throughout the history of modern military. In the US, flamethrowers and bazookas would be operated by 2 or 3-man teams that were effectively treated as independent units, which would be moved around by the commanding officer independent of the rest of the platoon. Oh, cool. Thanks! HEY GAL posted:wedgewood is old as balls but has good character sketches I got this book today on your recommendation. It's loving huge.
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Aug 2, 2015 00:23
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Squalid posted:I watched the film last week, it was okay to good, mostly about the modern immigrant experience of Chinese-Americans. I was surprised just how much all the Hunanese folk interviewed loved, gushing praise for his virtue and loyalty etc. I'd assume that with the official party line being very pro-Taiping his reputation would suffer for his role in putting it all down. I think there's a couple things at play here- one, the party line has gradually softened since the Cultural Revolution, and it's now okay to view guys like Zeng and Zuo positively, as people who tried to reform the system from within as opposed to replace it from without like the Taiping did (I'll probably give Taiping historiography its own post when I'm done with the history). Second, Zeng and Zuo have long been popular figures for Hunanese regional pride, independent of their status in the rest of China. Finally, and this is largely speculation on my part, I think Zuo may be more identified with his later victories against the Nian and the Dungan revolts, while Zeng got singled out as the "traitor and executioner" who put down the Taiping. I just watched it too, and wonder if it might not be coincidental that chef Peng named the dish while working for Chiang Kai-Shek. Chiang liked to think of himself as a successor to Zeng, Zuo, and Li, defending traditional Chinese culture against radical revolutionaries.
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Aug 2, 2015 00:31
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Squalid posted:I watched the film last week, it was okay to good, mostly about the modern immigrant experience of Chinese-Americans. I was surprised just how much all the Hunanese folk interviewed loved, gushing praise for his virtue and loyalty etc. I'd assume that with the official party line being very pro-Taiping his reputation would suffer for his role in putting it all down. Do Chinese-Americans generally follow the official party line?
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Aug 2, 2015 00:31
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feedmegin posted:Do Chinese-Americans generally follow the official party line? No idea. Most Chinese-Americans I know are like any other Americans in that they know absolutely nothing about it.
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Aug 2, 2015 00:53
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P-Mack posted:I think there's a couple things at play here- one, the party line has gradually softened since the Cultural Revolution, and it's now okay to view guys like Zeng and Zuo positively, as people who tried to reform the system from within as opposed to replace it from without like the Taiping did (I'll probably give Taiping historiography its own post when I'm done with the history). Second, Zeng and Zuo have long been popular figures for Hunanese regional pride, independent of their status in the rest of China. Finally, and this is largely speculation on my part, I think Zuo may be more identified with his later victories against the Nian and the Dungan revolts, while Zeng got singled out as the "traitor and executioner" who put down the Taiping. ZUO is regarded positively because he is the one Chinese general who actually won a war against a western power, and a fairly important one at that since that particular war partially determined that modern Xinjiang remained a part of China and not the Soviet Union. The Economist had a fairly amusing article about this- after zuo won the war, the diplomatic envoy sent by the Qing court to dictate peace terms was such an incompetent drunk that he ended up giving back most of zuo's battlefield gains back to the Russians, apparently not being familiar with the actual relative location of the land under dispute.
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Aug 2, 2015 02:10
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P-Mack posted:No idea. Most Chinese-Americans I know are like any other Americans in that they know absolutely nothing about it. My understanding is that the Chinese government spends a healthy a,punt of money supporting newspapers abroad supporting their line, so quite a bit of the party line thinking does trickle down to Chinese communities abroad.
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Aug 2, 2015 05:16
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Nine of Eight posted:My understanding is that the Chinese government spends a healthy a,punt of money supporting newspapers abroad supporting their line, so quite a bit of the party line thinking does trickle down to Chinese communities abroad. I brought this up with a Chinese-American coworker of mine, and she was surprised by the idea that she'd read any kind of newspaper about what's going on in China. Why the gently caress does she or any other Chinese-Americans in the area care what Beijing thinks, they're Americans.
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Aug 2, 2015 14:59
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Tias posted:No, but Thatcher does mention that it'd be more fitting that she be called "the hot iron lady", in broken English In German, that would be an awkward topic. How fitting! Cythereal posted:I brought this up with a Chinese-American coworker of mine, and she was surprised by the idea that she'd read any kind of newspaper about what's going on in China. Why the gently caress does she or any other Chinese-Americans in the area care what Beijing thinks, they're Americans. I get the feeling if you'd grab some random schmuck from the province Anhui, they'd care even less about what Beijing thinks. 
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Aug 2, 2015 15:06
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Thanqol posted:I got this book today on your recommendation. It's loving huge.
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Aug 2, 2015 15:23
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Taiping Tianguo Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Part 5 Part 6 Part 7 Part 8 Part 9 Part 10 Part 11 Part 12 Part 13 Part 14 Part 15 Part 16 Part 17  Red Revolution Guangxi and Guangdong was a hotbed of disorder and violence before the Taiping, and there is no reason for that to change once they depart. The splinter force of God Worshippers under Ling Shiba will occupy imperial attention for most of 1852, letting the secret societies flourish in the absence of imperial troops. While the Tiandihui and the Taiping had more or less parted ways by 1853, the Triads and other secret societies had by no means given up their goal of "destroy the Qing, restore the Ming." When news filters back of the stunning success of the Taiping to the north, plans are put into action to take advantage of the opportunities afforded by the weakened and distracted imperial army. The Taiping sent agents south and issued proclamations to encourage insurrection against the Qing, but the actual revolt will be entirely locally controlled. With the Taiping standing between the south and the north, governor Ye Mingchen will largely have to handle the situation using local resources. Heavy sums will be extracted from the local gentry, which in turn will be squeezed from the beleaguered peasantry. In conjunction with heavy floods, many farmers will be driven below the line of subsistence, and begin to look to the Triads as their only hope for deliverance. The Red Turbans are organized initially by Chen Song, and it is thanks to his organization that the disparate groups will prepare for action and enter full scale revolt as opposed to petty banditry. Most of the footsoldiers of the Red Turbans will come from the fringes of society. Peddlers, barbers, sailors, and other landless proles have the least to lose and will be the first to join. Two groups in this category were boxers and actors, and they will supply two of the major generals of the revolt- kung fu expert Chen Kai, and actor/swordsman Li Wenmao. Li led many of his fellow actors into revolt with him, assigning them into different units based on their stage roles. Reportedly they even wore opera costume into battle to intimidate their enemies. High tide The revolt does not start exactly as planned. Chen Song is still laying the groundwork when imperial troops execute a bloody purge against bandits and rebels (and anyone who happened to run afoul of imperial troops) in the area of Shilong. In revenge, and encouraged by Chen Song's agitations, local Tiandihui leader He Liu declares a revolt; at least a month earlier then was generally planned. In essentially all cases, individual society leaders controlled their men independently, and situations like this were the result. This decentralization and lack of coordination would hinder the Red Turbans, but also enable them to persist even if head leadership was lost. He Liu's men are initially succesful, seizing the city of Dongguan. The rest of the Tiandihui groups converge on the city, and belatedly formalize the command structure, electing Chen Kai and Li Wenmao as leaders. Chen Song will be captured and arrested in October of 1854, but it is too late to affect the rebellion's progress. Chen, Li, and the other triad leaders converge on Canton (Guangzhou) from all sides, seizing control of the the nearby city of Foshan. Other societies rose up throughout the province, and nearly a dozen district cities will be seized in independent actions by triad organizations. Governor Ye Mingchen has only a few thousand men, nowheres near enough to handle the rebels, whose numbers around Canton are estimated at 200,000. More sober modern historians suggest 40,000, but it is still an enormous disparity of force. The rebels begin to outline a political platform of lower taxes and Ming restoration. Like the Taiping, they grow their hair long and wrap it in the eponymous red turbans.  The rebels will lay siege to Canton, but will be hampered by a number of factors. First is their own disorganization and lack of coordination. The hydra-like organization that let them proceed nonchalantly despite the loss of Chen Song will be a hindrance as each head goes in its own direction. Logistics will be a mess and supplying their men will be difficult. They have promised lower taxes to the peasantry, promises which get harder to keep when food gets scarce. As the rebels resort to force to get food and supplies, they become as hated as the imperial troops had been. Wherever the Red Turbans become unpopular, the people could be tempted to throw their support to an alternative, which would increasingly come in the form of gentry led militias. Collapse In the absence of effective imperial response, the educated and wealthy gentry will expend their resources to organize independent fighting forces. Initially composed largely of mercenary yong forces, the gentry will also take the tuanlian system and bend it to their own purposes, raising forces that are somewhat more professional than envisioned by the central government and increasingly supported by locally imposed and collected taxes. As in other parts of China, the imperial government is saved only by a not entirely consensual devolution of power to local organizations. The divide between rebels and militias usually came down to the decisions of local communities, and in many cases these break down along ethnic lines. Curiously enough, considering the Taiping's origins, it is the Hakka who are generally pro-government and the Punti who side with the triads. The ongoing low level violence will explode during the rebellion, and give the imperial forces a base from which to begin to respond. The ultimate deathblow to the Red Turban's siege will come from the English barbarians. Rebel fleet leader Chen Xianleng's attempts at international diplomacy are even less sucessful then Yang Xiuqing's, and the increased piracy in the Pearl River delta has the British on edge. Chinese junks flying British flags have been maintaining communications with Hong Kong and keeping Canton supplied. Chen begins harassing these ships and demanding that British ships stop bringing armaments to imperial troops, Sir John Bowring eventually gives in to Ye Mingcheng's requests for help. While Britain does little actual fighting, British gunboats secure the Pearl River, without which the rebels cannot effectively siege or attack the city. The British also supply food and weapons to the Qing, and before long the tide begins to turn. The imperial forces retake Foshan and drive the rebels back. Chen and Li withdraw to Guangxi, where they will establish the Dachengguo, or "Great Achievement" kingdom. Other groups, including He Liu, move north into Hunan, where they will eventually be stopped and destroyed in January of 1856. The remnants of these forces will join groups under Ge Yaoming and Zhou Chun marching towards Jiangxi. They take cities on the way, but the ultimate goal is to link up with Shi Dakai. They succeed. They are allowed to remain semi-independent, and with his numbers bolstered by these tens of thousands of recruits, Shi conquers most of Jiangxi as has been described previously. Chen and Li take Guiping, not far from Jintian where the Taiping originated. Not long after Liuzhou falls as well. This petty kingdom, which even had its own currency, will persist into 1858, but the immediate threat to Guangdong is over. Ye Mingchen has saved the province. Sort of. White Terror  Brutal as the Red Turban actions had been at times, the real horror comes when they leave. Many rebels had not followed the organized bands that fled for Guangxi, Hunan, or Jiangxi. Instead, they simply melted back into the population from which they had emerged. Ye decides to ruthlessly exterminate every last one. The ordinary paperwork of executions is dispensed with. The new rule is that anyone can kill as many rebels as they want, no questions asked. Informants and petty officials will use this power to murder personal enemies by simply naming names. Overzealous officials will massacre villages for the crime of having been robbed and extorted by the Red Turbans- they had "paid taxes" to the rebels. Imperial troops loot and burn and kill as usual, but this time it isn't even nominally illegal. Ye claims that he personally is responsible for 100,000 executions, and westerners are horrified to see them being performed in a large square, 200 at a time. If the number of dead in the city were truly rebels, it is impossible that the city could have held. Suicide booths were established in the countryside so that rebels could kill themselves and spare their families trouble.The total death toll including off the books violence is cited by some sources as close to a million. Even if we give Ye only the 100,000 he claims, he is far more deserving of the title of "China's executioner" than Zeng Guofan. Bowring and the British disavow any responsibility, merely reasserting their neutrality. The end result of the red insurrection and the "white terror" that followed was a shattered and ruined Guangdong. Hakka-Punti clan wars continue for a decade; of no political importance, they still kill tens of thousands every year. Pirates went right back to their old professions, bandits persisted despite the draconian crackdowns, and beleagured peasantry were firmly under the thumb of the gentry, who had used the rebellion to effectively seize total control of the province. It is no coincidence that the first great wave of Chinese emigration to America will leave from the port of Canton. Big trouble in Shanghai The "Small Swords" uprising resembles that of the Red Turbans in miniature. It's importance is amplified among the hundreds of local insurrections occuring at this time by the fact that it took place in Shanghai, home to the increasingly important western powers. The Guangdong connection is direct, as many of the leaders of the rebellion originated in that province, and the huiguan, or native place associations, would play a key role in organizing the revolt. The city had grown rapidly since the opium war as it became the center of foreign trade, and much of the population had arrived fairly recently. The obvious difference with the Red Turbans is that the Turbans seized the countryside but not the capital, while the Small Swords take Shanghai and surrounding towns but leave the country under imperial control. The revolt originated in part from attempts to protect the city from rebellion or attack by the Taiping. In 1853 Daotai Wu Jianzhang set up seperate Guangdong (under Li Shaoqing) and Fujian (under Li Xianyun) yong organizations to defend the city, only to disband them shortly thereafter due to lack of funds. These militia organizations stayed in contact and the members became secret society members instead. Alarmed at the growth of these organizations, magistrate Yuan Zude arrests Li Xianyun, but apologizes and releases him shortly thereafter following credible threats to the magistrate's safety. In August of 1853, the huiguan put forth a petition that they be converted into militia, with funds to be raised from the local gentry to pay the men and their leaders. The magistrate is in little position to refuse. Less then a week later, apparently not satisfied with merely informal control of the city, Guangdong, Fujian, and native secret society members put on the red headgear of rebellion and seize control of the city. The principle leader of the revolt, Liu Lichuan, was a former interpreter quite familiar with westerners in Shanghai. The coup is nearly bloodless. Only two people are killed- the magistrate, and one unlucky guard who tried to stop the rebels. Pretty much every other guard in the society was in on the plot. Wu Jianzhang is spared by his fellow Guangdong natives, but relieved of his treasury. The entire city of 200,000 had been effectively taken over by a few hundred men with spears. The rebels were organized in seven seperate organizations, and from the start evinced the lack of cooperation that would prove their undoing.  An independent neutral policy The first point of conflict is Wu Jianzhang. The Fujianese want him dead, the Guangdong triads want to spare him and even consider restoring him to his position. Later conflict among the two groups will center around the booty seized. The Fujianese want to divide the cash and go home, the Guangdong prefer to maintain a treasury with which to continue the occupation and defense of Shanghai. Much of that money will go to foreigners, who will do a brisk trade in both armaments, supplies, and even mercenaries with both the rebels and the imperial troops outside the city. Foreigners are not molested by the triads, though the French are a bit displeased at having to ransom several Chinese Catholics who had run afoul of the triads. The French concession is also adjacent to the Chinese city, so they will be most concerned by the continuing rebel occupation. The Small Swords will sometimes fly Taiping flags, but this is more like when Boko Haram pledges allegience to ISIS than evidence of any real connection or cooperation. The Taiping will not provide any assistance to the rebels. When questioned, they will explain that the religious and moral deficiencies of the Triads made alliance impossible. In reality, the Taiping have committed all of their troops to the northern and western expeditions and simply can't spare enough to mount another offensive towards Shanghai. It is definitely a missed opportunity. Foreigners will maintain official neutrality, the same as they did towards the Taiping. As with the Taiping, this neutrality will be defacto pro-imperial. American Humphrey Marshall will send 100 men to break Wu Jianzhang out of house arrest, on the grounds that, as Wu was a non combatant, this did not constitute a breach of neutrality. Wu does not remain a noncombatant for long, breaking his assurances to the triads and putting his considerable resources into assisting the imperialist besiegers. He assembles a motley force of pirates, militia, and mercenaries. In the best imperial fashion, these troops do little to bother the rebels, but a great deal of robbery and extortion outside the city. The depredations get increasingly worse, until eventually crossing the line and trying to rob an English merchant. A combined Anglo-American volunteer force fights a battle against the imperialists on April 4, 1854. the imperial troops are defeated, and the triads sortie from the city to drive them off. The westerners from this point on take total control of the foreign settlement. No Chinese soldier will enter for almost a century. The westerners establish a municipal council, police force, and code of law. Neutrality comes to mean independent control of Chinese territory. Try Big Swords next time Despite the battle, the westerners shortly thereafter resume cooperation with imperial troops. The French in particular assist the imperial troops, and the siege gradually tightens. (Cooperation between Guangdong imperialists and their fellow natives inside the walls generally limited its effectiveness, though.) Once supplies get scarce, tensions within the rebel groups heighten, with the Fujianese again agitating to leave. Internal fighting escalates, and as 1855 begins one group after another deserts the city. By February, only a handful of rebels are left. The French take direct action and assist the imperialists in expelling the remainder. Little direct combat takes place, as the remaining rebels mostly flee the city, and the imperial troops rushing in to occupy are much more concerned with looting, burning, raping, and killing the hapless inhabitants of the city than with chasing down the rebels. By the time it is over several days later, half the city is in ruins; a stark contrast to the nearly bloodless seizure of the city with which the revolt began. Those rebels who surrender are ruthlessly decapitated, including several hundred who had turned themselves over to the French in exchange for assurances they would not be harmed. The French adhered to the letter of their promises- they simply turned the men over to Chinese authorities, after which, well, they really can't be blamed. The immediate result of the Small Sword revolt will be a Shanghai that is defacto ruled by the western powers. The Red Turban revolt, meanwhile, has normalized a practice of Chinese ships flying foreign flags and claiming extraterritorial privilege. So while the Qing have prevented the rebels from linking up with the Taiping, which could have been disastrous, they have traded one problem for another, and will soon stumble into a major confrontation with the western powers. Next update should finally get back to military developments of the Taiping.
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Aug 2, 2015 16:51
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HEY GAL posted:nobody says "czech yourself before you wreck yourself" in it though, which is a disappointment imo Spent a few hours reading the book by Wedgewood and the Wallenstein: A Life Illustrated. Wallenstein had an interesting early life, with women and murder involved.
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Aug 2, 2015 17:36
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