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Here's a question to ponder briefly: what does Gandalf(?) mean when referring to a hypothetical war between Saruman and Sauron that "the winner would emerge stronger than ever, and beyond doubt?" I mean I can grasp this statement if the ring was involved but in the hypothetical it was not so - uh - how does that math work out? edit: I can also see the "beyond doubt" part as both are arrogant by nature but stronger?
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Jul 26, 2015 03:53
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I have finally read past the Prancing Pony This is my best attempt ever
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Jul 26, 2015 04:18
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Thunder Moose posted:Here's a question to ponder briefly: what does Gandalf(?) mean when referring to a hypothetical war between Saruman and Sauron that "the winner would emerge stronger than ever, and beyond doubt?" I'm sorry but can you rephrase the question?
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Jul 26, 2015 04:22
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Thunder Moose posted:Here's a question to ponder briefly: what does Gandalf(?) mean when referring to a hypothetical war between Saruman and Sauron that "the winner would emerge stronger than ever, and beyond doubt?"
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Jul 26, 2015 04:27
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HIJK posted:I'm sorry but can you rephrase the question? He wants to know why Sauron or Saruman would become stronger after their fight
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Jul 26, 2015 04:27
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Stronger than ever relative to any rivals present or potential, and beyond any doubting of his own superiority. Tolkien likes to use "doubt" in the now-kinda-idiosyncratic sense of "wariness".
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Jul 26, 2015 04:30
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Yeah Saruman would either have to find the Ring, basically reinvent the Ring, or do something of a similar nature in order to make Sauron eat the pin, at which point he'd effectively be Sauron with a somewhat different style. Fewer slave pits, more grinding factories; either way, it sucks.
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Jul 26, 2015 04:46
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Smoking Crow posted:He wants to know why Sauron or Saruman would become stronger after their fight Ah. As to that, I think the implication was that the winner would absorb the loser's resources and power, particularly if the loser was enslaved and forced to serve, which was a common fate for Morgoth and Sauron's victims alike. Since Saruman emulated Sauron as much as he could, including making his own ring of power, he would have followed that model of conquering. Also consider that Saruman was a legitimate threat and it took an Ent army to render him nearly powerless. In order to defeat one another in open conflict, Saruman and Sauron would have to build themselves up in every fashion possible to come out on top.
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Jul 26, 2015 06:34
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if two dudes are involved in a major fight, one dude murders the other and nicks all his stuff + gets a period of rest and re-convalescence, the survivor is likely to emerge both stronger and beyond doubt, because he just murdered the only dude who could even offer a serious fight on even terms
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Jul 26, 2015 16:54
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Of course, Saruman's forces never posed any real threat to Sauron. Saruman's only hope was the One Ring. For Sauron meanwhile, it was a win-win scenario with Saruman's betrayal of the Free People. He kept Sauron's enemies divided and distracted and should he actually defeat Rohan or whatever, and get too uppity, it wouldn't take much to knock him back down. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Jul 26, 2015 |
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Jul 26, 2015 17:10
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I agree and think Gandalf was referring to "mere" earthly power ie resources and armies and strategic position
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Jul 29, 2015 14:15
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Smoking Crow posted:I have finally read past the Prancing Pony I didn't make it past the mushrooms my first five tries. Godspeed
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Jul 29, 2015 15:27
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What, "Farmer Maggot" was too much for you? 
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Jul 29, 2015 18:57
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So I got a question for you good folks. Do you hate Feanor as much as I do? Because I've encountered a ton of people who honest to Eru defend him and I can't fathom why. It's not even that they're like "yep, he's evil, but I think he's a good character." They outright deny the fact he was a villain who got tons of innocent elves killed for his own vanity. He didn't care about avenging his father, he just wanted his shiny jewels back. If he gave one poo poo about his dad, he wouldn't have left his father's son (Fingolfin) to die or some other horrible fate. I honestly hate Feanor more than I ever hated the Dark Lords. I never once felt any sympathy for him and then he just became outright evil pretty fast.
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Aug 1, 2015 23:15
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He made an oath man. You cant ignore those. He is also the only elf with attitude so that is cool.
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Aug 2, 2015 00:31
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euphronius posted:He made an oath man. You cant ignore those. He is also the only elf with attitude so that is cool. Some of his sons have a pretty "my way or the highway" approach too. Looking at you, C&C.
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Aug 2, 2015 01:15
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I don't hate Feanor for the same reason I don't hate Achilles or Cuchulainn. He's a Hero, with passions that are so colossal that they shake the firmament in their intensity. That is not to say I think he's a *moral* guy - it's pretty clear from the text that his obsession with revenge on Morgoth and the gathering of the Silmarils at the cost of everything else that's good is a *bad* thing. But worse than the Dark Lords? No way. Morgoth is a nihilist of unfathomable hate, who would destroy all of Arda just because he could. Even Sauron would destroy the freedom and wills of his slaves, the worst kind of totalitarianism imaginable. Compared to them Feanor's obsession with regaining what is rightfully his is practically benign.
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Aug 2, 2015 01:38
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Sauron of course originally had more noble intentions. He did sincerely repent at the start of the Second Age. He wanted to try and help rebuild the shattered wreck that was Middle-earth after the Vala Host and Morgoth's forces were done with it. I don't recall Feanor ever doing something even vaguely noble, or having noble goals. He is directly responsible for every Noldor that dies in the fruitless war against Morgoth. He did this by openly lying to all of them in order to have a nice army of meat shields to get to his pretty jewels. And his Oath outlives him, causing even more suffering after he dies. The only reason Fearnor never did as much harm as either of Morgoth or Sauron is because he was stopped early. He's rather like Saruman in that regard. I would say Fearnor is just as prideful as any of the others except maybe Morgoth at his most insane.
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Aug 2, 2015 01:53
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He created the Silmarils.
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Aug 2, 2015 01:55
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euphronius posted:He created the Silmarils.
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Aug 2, 2015 01:59
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You're kind of proving the point ehre about how evil Feanor is. Aule was the Valar most like Melkor and it was two of his servants that fell and became the most prominent evil Maia in the Legendarium. That is clearly intentional on Tolkien's part. There is only one true Creator and that is Eru. As Eru himself told Melkor, everything that ever exists does so according to His will. Even if you think you are defying Eru, you're still only doing what He wants. Yet, in the act of Creation, you become your own god of a sorts. This is a theme very prevalent in sci-fi but it works just as well in fantasy, as expressed here. Feanor and Sauron and Saruman felt they should be beholden to no one but themselves. Why is this? Because they are their own gods through their act of creation. Only they're not. It's a self-deception born of pride and arrogance but none of them ever realized this because what they had in Intelligence they lacked in Wisdom. (a contrast drawn between Saruman the Intelligent and Gandalf the Wise)
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Aug 2, 2015 02:10
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My brother had a question I couldn't answer: Why the name "Middle Earth"? Is there something it's between? An interesting thought I had on my drive home from GenCon was that Tony Stark is probably a lot like pre-fall Sauron.
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Aug 2, 2015 02:42
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SirPhoebos posted:My brother had a question I couldn't answer: Why the name "Middle Earth"? Is there something it's between? Yes. It's basically from "Midgard" in Norse mythology. Basically, High Heaven, Low Hell, and in the middle, earf. More complicated if you actually delve into the mythology but that's the gist of it.
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Aug 2, 2015 02:56
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An evil being could not have created the Silmarils. When you analyze Feanor, start first at the Silmarils. Like you would not call Michelangelo a hack artist because he drew a dirty picture on a napkin. No you would focus on the Sistine Chapel and the Pieta.
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Aug 2, 2015 03:04
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The Silmarils are arguably not rightfully Feanor's. They were crafted from the light of the Two Trees, and so well in fact that they're instrumental in bringing them back to life. In that sense, they belong to the world itself, because the Two Trees benefited all things good. And I believe one of the Valar or Maiar even says that Feanor's corruption and own fall rendered his claim null and void.
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Aug 2, 2015 05:56
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Gologle posted:The Silmarils are arguably not rightfully Feanor's. They were crafted from the light of the Two Trees, and so well in fact that they're instrumental in bringing them back to life. In that sense, they belong to the world itself, because the Two Trees benefited all things good. And I believe one of the Valar or Maiar even says that Feanor's corruption and own fall rendered his claim null and void. And of course the side effects of Feanor's shitheadery basically saved everyone, in the end.
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Aug 2, 2015 06:34
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yes. It's basically from "Midgard" in Norse mythology. Basically, High Heaven, Low Hell, and in the middle, earf. More complicated if you actually delve into the mythology but that's the gist of it. More precisely: The Letters of J.R.R.Tolkien posted:It is just a use of Middle English middel-erde (or erthe), altered from Old English Middangeard: the name for the inhabited lands of Men 'between the seas'.
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Aug 2, 2015 14:35
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Nessus posted:I thought that got resolved fairly well, honestly - the point is made clear that if the Valar just take Feanor's poo poo, don't they prove Melkor's right? And that Feanor did in fact make these wonderful things, and even if he's an rear end in a top hat, they're the fruits of his own labor. Yes, Feanor made the Silmarils, but what he made them from is something that belongs to everybody, and the radiance they possess within them comes from that all encompassing light. And how did Feanor save everybody? The Trees weren't essential to life or anything, the Sun and the Moon did an adequate job of replacing them, and in the end, the Noldor lost the war against Morgoth. The Valar Host had to sweep in and beat Morgoth. If they had just let the Valar sort things out to begin with, all of that strife and tragedy never would have happened. It's the Silmarils that play the role in remaking the world as whole in the end, and if Feanor had cooled his jets, not been a dick, the Silmarils might have been recovered faster, or maybe not even have been lost at all to Morgoth.
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Aug 2, 2015 15:23
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Feanor was cool for what he did.
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Aug 2, 2015 15:29
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Gologle posted:Yes, Feanor made the Silmarils, but what he made them from is something that belongs to everybody, and the radiance they possess within them comes from that all encompassing light. And how did Feanor save everybody? The Trees weren't essential to life or anything, the Sun and the Moon did an adequate job of replacing them, and in the end, the Noldor lost the war against Morgoth. The Valar Host had to sweep in and beat Morgoth. If they had just let the Valar sort things out to begin with, all of that strife and tragedy never would have happened. It's the Silmarils that play the role in remaking the world as whole in the end, and if Feanor had cooled his jets, not been a dick, the Silmarils might have been recovered faster, or maybe not even have been lost at all to Morgoth. Not to mention that, by his evil deeds, Feanor forsook any claim he had to the Silmarils.We see this when his sons finally get their hands on one or two of them and they can't hold them because the hallowed jewels will not abide evil. Note that the Silmarils had only ever burned Morgoth himself and his evil hound, Carcaroth. (at least that is what I recall) So, congrats Fearnor, that's the kind of company you are comparable to.
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Aug 2, 2015 15:31
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Mr. Neutron posted:More precisely: Huh, so basically how Mediterranean is "between lands".
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Aug 2, 2015 15:31
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Shibawanko posted:Feanor was cool for what he did. Manwe: Your out of order Feanor! Feanor: This whole continent is out of order! I'm handing in my badge! *pulls out handgun, becomes vigilante* Gets the majority of his people owned by evil over the course of thousands of years of war
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Aug 2, 2015 16:06
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Mr. Neutron posted:More precisely: It's worth noting that the proper spelling is "Middle-earth" and not "Middle Earth" or anything else like that. Like, it's not "Earth" in the sense of a planet or world at all; it's more like "ground". Fun fact, geard in Old/Middle English evolved into yard rather than earth (which has a separate derivation from OE eorthe). So really a better translation would be "Middle-yard". I think Tolkien was just following an existing tradition of Norse literature scholars when he picked out the name.
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Aug 2, 2015 17:51
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This popped up on my facebook feed a few days ago, its a pretty interesting but short article on the nature of power in Tolkiens works. http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2015/07/28/who_is_the_most_powerful_being_in_the_tolkien_universe.html?wpsrc=fol_fb
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Aug 2, 2015 18:07
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Feanor is not a particularly great or heroic figure and his big character flaw is hubris. Well earned hubris and it lead him to do many great (terrible) things but man, what a price huh? That being said I never liked how the Valar handled that situation. I don't like how they handled any part of the elves. The Valar are shitheads.
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Aug 2, 2015 18:26
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HIJK posted:Feanor is not a particularly great or heroic figure and his big character flaw is hubris. Well earned hubris and it lead him to do many great (terrible) things but man, what a price huh? They really are. They always seemed to me to be a bunch of pretty dimwitted, slow guys who got assigned a really important job and they know they need to do a good job, and they know it's super important so they hold themselves with dignity, etc. But they're complete idiots and whenever a hard decision comes along they're all "hmmm" rubbing their chins trying to look like they're weighing the options like Solomon but really they're like "gently caress gently caress gently caress what the gently caress do I do with my gameboy- wait what did feanor want again". Or at least the male valar. Lorien and Yavanna were cool.
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Aug 2, 2015 18:43
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SHISHKABOB posted:They really are. They always seemed to me to be a bunch of pretty dimwitted, slow guys who got assigned a really important job and they know they need to do a good job, and they know it's super important so they hold themselves with dignity, etc. But they're complete idiots and whenever a hard decision comes along they're all "hmmm" rubbing their chins trying to look like they're weighing the options like Solomon but really they're like "gently caress gently caress gently caress what the gently caress do I do with my gameboy- wait what did feanor want again". Or at least the male valar. Lorien and Yavanna were cool. Oh christ for real though. They're so busy trying to anticipate God's will that they never bother to consider whether or not something is a good idea. I think it was Tulkas and/or Aule who said "hey guys maybe we shouldn't try to displace the entire loving elf population" and of course Manwe, like the idiot dudebro that he is, ~too good and pure to understand evil,~ immediately moves forward with it anyway. How many problems in the Silm can be traced back to Manwe being an absolute idiot? A lot of them I bet. Yavanna should have been running that poo poo. Jesus.
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Aug 2, 2015 18:50
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It's true that the Vala are pretty stupid. From what I've read, a lot of this comes from Tolkien drawing on other mythologies a lot. The Vala are supposed to be Greek style rear end in a top hat deities, just as flawed as you or I. Then he changed his mind and so the narrative doesn't paint them this way. The narrative constantly goes on about how pure Manwe is, about how glorious and majestic the Vala are, even as they persist in being stupid. How hard would it have been to drag Sauron back to Valinor as opposed to just leaving him in Middle-earth? Or even to get off their fancy golden thrones and go see Numenor and remind them that "hey! WE'RE ALL POWERFUL GODS! DON'T ATTACK US OR YOUR ENTIRE PEOPLE, WOMEN AND CHILDREN INCLUDED, WILL BE EXTERMINATED." But nope, too much effort. Best just to sit around until Melkor has killed all the Noldor and then when the Numenors finally have been driven to the point of madness by the guy you let loose justto call on some Old Testament style wrath to deal with a situation that could have been easily remedied.
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Aug 2, 2015 18:55
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Aule is cool. Sure, his Maiar have a tendency to become shitheads, but that's hardly his fault.
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Aug 2, 2015 18:59
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Aule's the kid playing with legos, or the train set. Dad walks over and says "this is bad, why did you do this" and Aule is  (((((
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Aug 2, 2015 19:04
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