Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

Lemming: Apr 21, 2008

Genocide Tendency posted:

My logic is someone who gets pulled over for failing to signal a lane change where signaling a lane change is a requirement is not "driving while black".

Are you really not smart enough to follow this?

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43

Black people comprise 28.3% of all US arrests

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

Black people comprise 13.2% of the population

Not going to be exact figures, but do you think that black people are, as a whole, twice as likely to commit crime, or do you think there's some sort of disparity in how laws are being enforced?

# ? Aug 3, 2015 21:45

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# ? May 28, 2024 01:00

Genocide Tendency: Dec 24, 2009; I get mental health care from the medical equivalent of Skillcraft.

Genocide Tendency posted:

Im white.

So why did I get pulled over those 4 times?

Because they could tell you were stupid enough to be posing a danger to the driving public

# ? Aug 3, 2015 21:48

DARPA: Apr 24, 2005; We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run over.

Genocide Tendency posted:

Im white.

So why did I get pulled over those 4 times?

Because you are a terrible driver. You have been pulled over more times for failure to signal than I've been pulled over in my entire life.

Anyway, I don't know why we're using the grand wizard's personal experience as a discussion point. It's just fact that black people are more likely to be pulled over.

You really can get pulled over for driving while black, federal statistics show

And more likely to be searched, despite as we learned in Ferguson, being less likely to be carrying contraband.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 21:49

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

Genocide Tendency posted:

Im white.

So why did I get pulled over those 4 times?

so you're saying that because white people also get pulled over, that cops can't be racist?

for someone insulting other people's intelligence so freely you've got some really naive and strange opinions. people are actually giving you the benefit of the doubt when they assume you're just a racist who wants to defend police harrassment. it's far more likely that you're just racist and upset that people are calling you out for it than you believe that most people actually use their turn signals when they change lanes

i got pulled over twice in two weeks for 'failure to maintain lane' when really the police were just checking on me because i drove a distinctive vehicle and someone else who drove this same make/model/color was out committing crimes. the police can and will come up with bullshit charges to harass anyone they choose to. i also got pulled over for loitering once, because i stopped too long at a stop sign in a 'known drug area'

boner confessor fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Aug 3, 2015

# ? Aug 3, 2015 21:49

Armyman25: Sep 6, 2005

Genocide Tendency posted:

Im white.

So why did I get pulled over those 4 times?

Because you were too stupid to learn from the first time?

# ? Aug 3, 2015 21:49

Senf: Nov 12, 2006

Genocide Tendency posted:

During those 4 times? Not much beyond the rear end in a top hat who had a REAL BIG issue with me being in the military. But I don't expect better from South Carolina Highway Patrol.

Now ask me about the time I had a gun shoved into the back of my head for cracking jokes with an EOD tech. Or the time I got a nightstick to the throat for telling a cop to stop picking on a kid for "waiting for his friends". Or the time I got cuffed and searched for making a right on red.

Or the time that I got.. No wait. scratch that, I earned the rest.

I'm not brushing aside those who disagree with me.

Again. If someone, regardless of race, gets pulled over for violating a traffic law, its not automatically because of their race/age/gender. Its often because, get this, they violated a traffic law.

But hey. Personal anecdotes don't count because cops pull over black people which is racism.

I've never denied that you also cannot be harassed by an officer, simply that you weren't harassed during the stops that you had mentioned.

Personal anecdotes aren't going to be given much credibility when they very clearly ignore the larger issue.

Genocide Tendency posted:

Im white.

So why did I get pulled over those 4 times?

Because white people get pulled over, too. Obviously. But minorities are involved in those sort of incidents at a much higher rate. The numbers back that up. Clearly.

You're incredibly dense.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 21:52

Toasticle: Jul 18, 2003; Hay guys, out this Rape

ActusRhesus posted:

No. But you might be able to suggest reforms that don't require the suspension of the bill of rights.

It would be great if we had Lawyers and DA's and cops who could join in the discussion and help suggest reforms or changes to other peoples reforms that don't violate the bill of rights seeing as how they might actually know the system well enough.

To bad all we have are ones that are too busy to do anything than show up every now and then to tell the thread how their ideas are stupid because they violate the bill of rights.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 21:54

ElCondemn: Aug 7, 2005

ActusRhesus posted:

No. But you might be able to suggest reforms that don't require the suspension of the bill of rights.

Why? If the resuits are poo poo why do we need to take the lovely existing laws into account in the first place? It's not like any of us are in charge of changing the laws in question, it doesn't make sense to put that limitation on the discussion. Maybe make a thread on some other forum with only legal experts if you want that kind of discussion.

As far as I can see this thread is for expressing your outrage over the endless stream of police brutality finally making it to light in this country, though it's mostly online since traditional news media seems to ignore it for the most part.

SquadronROE posted:

An unsignalled lane change would be a super good reason to pull someone over when you don't have other reasons, too. No one is going to doubt that any given car changed a lane without signalling, since just about everyone does it.

I've always heard that if a cop wants to pull you over he'll just find a reason though. So maybe "while black" is a good reason too.

It's their word against yours in pretty much every case, they can claim you did whatever the gently caress they want and you now either have to pay a fine or go fight it in court, and the worst part is you can say all day "I used my blinker" you will still lose. It's happened to me and friends of mine in the past, you literally can't win, they are the law and you can't fight them, because if you do you die.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 21:56

Genocide Tendency: Dec 24, 2009; I get mental health care from the medical equivalent of Skillcraft.

Lemming posted:

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43

Black people comprise 28.3% of all US arrests

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

Black people comprise 13.2% of the population

Not going to be exact figures, but do you think that black people are, as a whole, twice as likely to commit crime, or do you think there's some sort of disparity in how laws are being enforced?

Nope.

Here read this:

Genocide Tendency posted:

The real issue in this thread is that most people just want an echo chamber of the word "racism" or "cops are bad" rather than actually look at whats wrong and discuss the issues. Then you have a handfull of posters who not only don't understand the laws, regulations and rights limiting their unrealistic solutions.

There is a serious issue with policing. Its from the selection process of police academies, through training and then into the ranks all the way up. Thats on one side, the other side is this idiotic mouth breathing response by civilians when they feel wronged. Just a tip. Both sides need work, and are in the wrong. So lets look at the fixes:

Training:
Start with the selection process. I have been through it in the state of Florida, and eventually turned down the offered slot. It starts out with a 25 question test, then moves on to a personnel file not dissimilar to a military background check. What isn't in there? Mental health evaluation. But you do have to list every instance you have ever been associated with illegal drugs (including that one time you tried a joint). And they check, with a polygraph. They do ask if you are involved in hate groups. But thats a grey area because you only have to list those recognized by the alphabet agencies.
The training its self obviously has issues. What is/where is the review process? What are the differences? Why is there not a universal program with add on/extended training for individual regions? How often is the training process updated? What are the watch dog groups who monitor this? Do they have them? Where are the records/why do they not exist?

Local Level and up: Obviously the selection process. When we have an incident, there seems to be a trend where the officers involved have had issues before. If someone is coming in from a different agency, how is previous behavior or incidents looked at?
Incidents, how are they reviewed? Who reviews them? Its fine if an agency has a review process, but any time you have a complaint filed, an agency/independent group outside of that unit should be doing the primary investigation. And it should not just focus on the incident, but the potential culture that led to it. Do you have one cop who did something wrong? Or is it a systemic problem inside of the unit its self? This is why it needs to be investigated by personnel outside of the unit.

Add to this that every agency should have the ability, and be required to police the level below them.

Cameras on dashes, body cams, a push to alter and create universal use of force regulations... On and on and on....

What about oversight committees? Watch dog groups? How effective are they? Why are they not? Whats the process to report abuse of power/excessive force/inappropriate conduct? Where dose it fail?

There are a lot of questions there. And it needs to be addressed. This is discussion. Activism is trying to find the answers. Placing pressure on elected officials to work on these problems.

Radbot posted:

Because they could tell you were stupid enough to be posing a danger to the driving public

DARPA posted:

Because you are a terrible driver. You have been pulled over more times for failure to signal than I've been pulled over in my entire life.

Anyway, I don't know why we're using the grand wizard's personal experience as a discussion point. It's just fact that black people are more likely to be pulled over.

You really can get pulled over for driving while black, federal statistics show

And more likely to be searched, despite as we learned in Ferguson, being less likely to be carrying contraband.

Armyman25 posted:

Because you were too stupid to learn from the first time?

All three of you are loving stupid. You can not read. You can not read one loving important part of the entire issue.

It wasn't a law when and where I got my licence. Literally I was not taught to use a signal to change lanes. That doesn't make me a bad driver. It means I learned to drive in a state where you didn't need to.

Now tell me. Do you know every little nuance and oh by the way traffic law in every state? No?

Ah. WELL YOU ARE A lovely DRIVER. Using your logic of course.

Genocide Tendency posted:

Again. If someone, regardless of race, gets pulled over for violating a traffic law, its not automatically because of their race/age/gender. Its often because, get this, they violated a traffic law.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 21:57

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Genocide Tendency posted:

Again. If someone, regardless of race, gets pulled over for violating a traffic law, its not automatically because of their race/age/gender. Its often because, get this, they violated a traffic law.

But hey. Personal anecdotes don't count because cops pull over black people which is racism.

How would you know? You already believe that black people are more prone to criminality, but that's not true.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 21:59

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

Genocide Tendency posted:

No. Again because either you can't read or keep ignoring it...

so you just want to pretend that racism doesn't exist, except when you're falsely accused of it by shrieking leftists? and then you whine that nobody treats you with respect? have some pride in your own arguments, dude. you're not being respected because you don't even respect yourself

really at this point this is just turning into attention seeking behavior. i'm sorry that you get off on being a rebel but that's not going to earn you many points in adult conversation

# ? Aug 3, 2015 21:59

Lemming: Apr 21, 2008

Genocide Tendency posted:

Nope.

Here read this:

Ok, not only does that quote of yourself not address my post, "Nope" is nonsensical answer to an either or question.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:01

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

Lemming posted:

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43

Black people comprise 28.3% of all US arrests

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

Black people comprise 13.2% of the population

Not going to be exact figures, but do you think that black people are, as a whole, twice as likely to commit crime, or do you think there's some sort of disparity in how laws are being enforced?

Is murder a DWB offense now too? Cause it seems like that and robbery are the two most "disproportionately enforced" crimes on that list.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:02

oohhboy: Jun 8, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

This thread continues to remind me how glad I am that I don't live in America.

When I get pulled over by the cops here, I don't ever have to fear for my life or livelihood and neither does the cops no matter the colour. If I do get arrested I am likely to get help instead of getting my life ruined. Things do go wrong, but we go out of our way to fix them instead of wasting everyone's time until there are riots. If I call the police, I know they are obligated to help. I know that if the police misstep slightly let alone gun someone down, it gets looked into and action taken.

When we talk of possible Americanism of our police force, this is a slur against you guys. You are the example of how not to do things.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:03

Senf: Nov 12, 2006

Genocide Tendency posted:

Again. If someone, regardless of race, gets pulled over for violating a traffic law, its not automatically because of their race/age/gender. Its often because, get this, they violated a traffic law.

No, not automatically. But often.

Way too drat often and, whether you choose to acknowledge them or not, numbers - real, hard numbers - do back that up.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:04

turn it up TURN ME ON: Mar 19, 2012; In the Grim Darkness of the Future, there is only war.

...and delicious ice cream.

oohhboy posted:

When we talk of possible Americanism of our police force, this is a slur against you guys. You are the example of how not to do things.

That's one of the most sad things I've ever read.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:05

DARPA: Apr 24, 2005; We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run over.

Genocide Tendency posted:

All three of you are loving stupid. You can not read. You can not read one loving important part of the entire issue.

It wasn't a law when and where I got my licence. Literally I was not taught to use a signal to change lanes. That doesn't make me a bad driver. It means I learned to drive in a state where you didn't need to.

Now tell me. Do you know every little nuance and oh by the way traffic law in every state? No?

Ah. WELL YOU ARE A lovely DRIVER. Using your logic of course.

How do you not learn after the first, second, or third traffic stop that maybe you should start using your blinker? I apologize if you have a learning disability.

ElCondemn posted:

Why? If the resuits are poo poo why do we need to take the lovely existing laws into account in the first place? It's not like any of us are in charge of changing the laws in question, it doesn't make sense to put that limitation on the discussion. Maybe make a thread on some other forum with only legal experts if you want that kind of discussion.

You may have missed AR's earlier post where she decides we are allowed to discuss amending state constitutions, but declares it unacceptable for us to consider changes to the federal constitution.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:06

Lemming: Apr 21, 2008

Jarmak posted:

Is murder a DWB offense now too? Cause it seems like that and robbery are the two most "disproportionately enforced" crimes on that list.

Considering that robbery and murder comprise less than 2% of the total arrests of black people, I'm going to posit that you don't understand the links.

Edit: It's lovely to leave it at that, so I apologize. I'll explain - the percentages of all arrests isn't an average of the percentage of each arrest, it adds up all the total arrests. Robbery and murder were a total of about 50,000 arrests out of over 2.5 million, so they don't factor in that heavily. Look at arrests like drug abuse violations - 365,785 out of 1,204,162, or about 30%, or Disorderly conduct - 129,782 out of 372,202, or about 35%. Or "All other offenses (except traffic)" 790,854 out of 2,602,939, or about 30%.

Lemming fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Aug 3, 2015

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:07

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

Lemming posted:

Considering that robbery and murder comprise less than 2% of the total arrests of black people, I'm going to posit that you don't understand the links.

Considering I just picked the most extreme example on the list that doesn't even include traffic offenses (other then DUI) I'm going to posit you didn't even read the links

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:10

Rah!: Feb 21, 2006

Armyman25 posted:

Because you were too stupid to learn from the first time?

Too stupid to learn...I'm seeing a pattern there.

oohhboy posted:

When we talk of possible Americanism of our police force, this is a slur against you guys. You are the example of how not to do things.

Shut up you dumb eurofag/other type of non-american fag commie, America is the best at everything. We hate our ~~minorities/impoverished~~ subhuman criminal scum, just as god intended. :911:

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:10

ElCondemn: Aug 7, 2005

Lemming posted:

Considering that robbery and murder comprise less than 2% of the total arrests of black people, I'm going to posit that you don't understand the links.

Edit: It's lovely to leave it at that, so I apologize. I'll explain - the percentages of all arrests isn't an average of the percentage of each arrest, it adds up all the total arrests. Robbery and murder were a total of about 50,000 arrests out of over 2.5 million, so they don't factor in that heavily. Look at arrests like drug abuse violations - 365,785 out of 1,204,162, or about 30%, or Disorderly conduct - 129,782 out of 372,202, or about 35%. Or "All other offenses (except traffic)" 790,854 out of 2,602,939, or about 30%.

Jarmak was a cop, he knows the truth about black people.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:12

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

Lemming posted:

Edit: It's lovely to leave it at that, so I apologize. I'll explain - the percentages of all arrests isn't an average of the percentage of each arrest, it adds up all the total arrests. Robbery and murder were a total of about 50,000 arrests out of over 2.5 million, so they don't factor in that heavily. Look at arrests like drug abuse violations - 365,785 out of 1,204,162, or about 30%, or Disorderly conduct - 129,782 out of 372,202, or about 35%. Or "All other offenses (except traffic)" 790,854 out of 2,602,939, or about 30%.

Yeah, the fact that the statistics get much closer to proportional the more the enforcement of the particular law is discretionary does not support your assertion.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:13

Lemming: Apr 21, 2008

Jarmak posted:

Yeah, the fact that the statistics get much closer to proportional the more the enforcement of the particular law is discretionary does not support your assertion.

How is 30% of the arrests compared to 13% of the population proportional?

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:14

Genocide Tendency: Dec 24, 2009; I get mental health care from the medical equivalent of Skillcraft.

DARPA posted:

How do you not learn after the first, second, or third traffic stop that maybe you should start using your blinker? I apologize if you have a learning disability.

4 different states.

Do you have the traffic laws of every state memorized?

I apologize if you have a learning disability.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:15

twodot: Aug 7, 2005; You are objectively correct that this person is dumb and has said dumb things

DARPA posted:

You may have missed AR's earlier post where she decides we are allowed to discuss amending state constitutions, but declares it unacceptable for us to consider changes to the federal constitution.

So we realize these things are very different things, right? My home state has had its constitution amended 107 times in 126 years. The Alabama state constitution, which is famous for being hosed up, has had 856 amendments, and is three times longer than the longest national constitution (India's). Further the types of things you get from amending state constitutions (no elected judges) is very different in scope from the things you get from amending the federal constitution (upending 200+ years of case law regarding the rules of what is admissible evidence).

I don't think it's wrong to want to amend the federal constitution, but if your proposed reform represents a revolution-scale change to government, I think you should lead with that fact up front. (edit: And have a prepared analysis of the ramifications)

twodot fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Aug 3, 2015

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:16

Dr Pepper: Feb 4, 2012; Don't like it? well...

Genocide Tendency posted:

4 different states.

Do you have the traffic laws of every state memorized?

I apologize if you have a learning disability.

None of this matters because for every time you were pulled over a black person was pulled over twice.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:17

Genocide Tendency: Dec 24, 2009; I get mental health care from the medical equivalent of Skillcraft.

Dr Pepper posted:

None of this matters because for every time you were pulled over a black person was pulled over twice.

LoL

Not going to let you edit this.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:19

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

Lemming posted:

How is 30% of the arrests compared to 13% of the population proportional?

Do you not understand words? I said closer to proportional.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:19

ElCondemn: Aug 7, 2005

twodot posted:

I don't think it's wrong to want to amend the federal constitution, but if your proposed reform represents a revolution-scale change to government, I think you should lead with that fact up front.

I think AR was just trying to say that everyone offering solutions should shut up because they don't know how laws work. I don't think it's fair to complain about that since if it's a lovely idea it'll gain no traction and people won't talk about it, it's a self correcting problem. I don't think there is a specific person/request that's in question here, it's just more "you're not allowed to say..." poo poo.

I've been saying we should remove guns from police for ages and everyone thinks it's stupid and it's not a big part of the discussion, seems like it worked out in favor of people who think it's stupid.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:20

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Lemming posted:

How is 30% of the arrests compared to 13% of the population proportional?

Police know the truth about black people and how much crime they commit. If only you'd let them do their jobs, they could control them.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:20

Lemming: Apr 21, 2008

Jarmak posted:

Do you not understand words? I said closer to proportional.

I understand what you said, the implication of what you said was "and therefore, it's fine."

It's not proportional, so it's not fine. You were trying to use weasel words, so I called it out.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:22

twodot: Aug 7, 2005; You are objectively correct that this person is dumb and has said dumb things

ElCondemn posted:

I think AR was just trying to say that everyone offering solutions should shut up because they don't know how laws work. I don't think it's fair to complain about that since if it's a lovely idea it'll gain no traction and people won't talk about it, it's a self correcting problem. I don't think there is a specific person/request that's in question here, it's just more "you're not allowed to say..." poo poo.

If you're offering a solution and you don't know how the existing system works, you absolutely should shut up since you're just a broken clock who might by accident come up with a good idea. It's true that we could put a bunch of broken clocks in a room with not-idiots, and the not-idiots could filter out all the idiot ideas, but who would want to be in that room, and why wouldn't we just use the ideas of the not-idiots?
edit:
Also I don't see a mechanism to stop the broken clocks from cross-promoting idiot ideas.

twodot fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Aug 3, 2015

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:25

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Toasticle posted:

It would be great if we had Lawyers and DA's and cops who could join in the discussion and help suggest reforms or changes to other peoples reforms that don't violate the bill of rights seeing as how they might actually know the system well enough.

To bad all we have are ones that are too busy to do anything than show up every now and then to tell the thread how their ideas are stupid because they violate the bill of rights.

Speaking as a lawyer, we have. And often times get shouted down for it. Little of what AR has said (besides getting involved in stupid slapfights) has been much different that what I, an admitted cop and DA hater, would propose. It is just seen through a different lense because of her job (and maybe some tone issues).

That said (and not to get back on a stupid posting about posting derail), to fix the system, you have to start at training and recruiting. Cops in the US are training to be scared, and that is a huge problem when combined with the active otherization and lack of community policing. Training and attitudes are the key factor that distinguish our cops from those in less shooty countries, not police access to guns.

Body and dash cams should be manditory and always on. There should be strict privacy law restricting distribution of those videos involving witness and victims without consent (though they should be provided to the defense unedited). I've had enough slap flights over what a witness said to conclude that turning them off only creates issues. They record child rape victims as crisis centers here and they've never had a tape released, so I'm not worried.

Bail needs strict reforms. OR should be presumed on most every non-violent crime. Courts should help peoplr who have difficulty coming to court rather than just lockingvthem up (though I agree with it as a last resort). Generally courts need to move away from the idea that jail solves anything for low risk offenders. Even probation increases recidivism for the lowest risk offenders.

Public defenders should be employed by the state or county. Unelected outside of SF. Funding should be tied to DA funding.

Judges and DAs should be unelected.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:28

ToastyPotato: Jun 23, 2005; CONVICTED OF DISPLAYING HIS PEANUTS IN PUBLIC

For a thread so filled with alleged idiots, you guys sure can't seem to help yourselves from sticking around and posting a lot in it. If that is how you really feel, why are you still here? I'd think the people choosing to be in that room of idiots would be the bigger idiots, because they could leave any time they wanted.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:30

DARPA: Apr 24, 2005; We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run over.

Genocide Tendency posted:

4 different states.

Do you have the traffic laws of every state memorized?

I apologize if you have a learning disability.

Do you not use your turn signal when you visit a new state until a police officer tells you otherwise? Or move over for emergency vehicles? Or follow wipers on lights on? It isn't even following the law. It's about being good at driving. Which you aren't, which is why you keep getting pulled over.

twodot posted:

So we realize these things are very different things, right? My home state has had its constitution amended 107 times in 126 years. The Alabama state constitution, which is famous for being hosed up, has had 856 amendments, and is three times longer than the longest national constitution (India's). Further the types of things you get from amending state constitutions (no elected judges) is very different in scope from the things you get from amending the federal constitution (upending 200+ years of case law regarding the rules of what is admissible evidence).

I don't think it's wrong to want to amend the federal constitution, but if your proposed reform represents a revolution-scale change to government, I think you should lead with that fact up front. (edit: And have a prepared analysis of the ramifications)

No one is amending poo poo in this thread just like no one is solving the middle east, or greek debt or anti-vaxxer issues in those threads. To say yes the justice system should have a robust method for getting video evidence recorded on police equipment, videoing police doing illegal things into evidence should not require a note explaining the changes to the consitution and the change in case law because it's entirely outside the scope of discussion. The federal constitution issues were a straw-man anyway to divert discussion away from a corrupt department who just shrugged about getting the video into evidence of an officer punching a compliant handcuffed prisoner in the face.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:30

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

Lemming posted:

I understand what you said, the implication of what you said was "and therefore, it's fine."

It's not proportional, so it's not fine. You were trying to use weasel words, so I called it out.

I didn't use any loving weasel words, I pointed out that your statistics are evidence of exactly the opposite of what you're asserting and why, a fact you've yet to address in any manner other then this smokescreen distraction bullshit.

I mean come on, "if its not proportional the cops are racist" is some silly bullshit, are you saying that the reason 52% of the murder arrests are black is because the cops aren't enforcing the murder laws against white people? Are they hiding the white bodies too?

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:30

ActusRhesus: Sep 18, 2007; "Perhaps the fact the defendant had to be dragged out of the courtroom while declaring 'Death to you all, a Jihad on the court' may have had something to do with the revocation of his bond. That or calling the judge a bald-headed cock-sucker. Either way."

Toasticle posted:

It would be great if we had Lawyers and DA's and cops who could join in the discussion and help suggest reforms or changes to other peoples reforms that don't violate the bill of rights seeing as how they might actually know the system well enough.

To bad all we have are ones that are too busy to do anything than show up every now and then to tell the thread how their ideas are stupid because they violate the bill of rights.

You know there was a time I tried to do that. But the constant dog piles get tedious. Hence the creation of the ask tell thread so people who had genuine questions could get answers.

Because...

ElCondemn posted:

As far as I can see this thread is for expressing your outrage over the endless stream of police brutality finally making it to light in this country, though it's mostly online since traditional news media seems to ignore it for the most part.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:31

Javid: Oct 21, 2004

The processes involved with amending the US constitution are (intentionally) very difficult and require a lot of political will. It has happened, but not in a long time, and if there were enough consensus to go there we wouldn't be having this discussion. Constitutional solutions are not a productive use of energy to discuss, even if we pretend that repealing the 5th or 10th would be remotely a positive thing.

STATE constitutions are generally easier. Generally.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:32

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# ? May 28, 2024 01:00

twodot: Aug 7, 2005; You are objectively correct that this person is dumb and has said dumb things

DARPA posted:

To say yes the justice system should have a robust method for getting video evidence recorded on police equipment, videoing police doing illegal things into evidence should not require a note explaining the changes to the consitution and the change in case law because it's entirely outside the scope of discussion. The federal constitution issues were a straw-man anyway to divert discussion away from a corrupt department who just shrugged about getting the video into evidence of an officer punching a compliant handcuffed prisoner in the face.

This is just a useless platitude though. It could mean anything from "Entirely suspend the rules of evidence" to "Create an independent agency that can certify video evidence recorded on police equipment, also make sure that none of those people do their job badly or die" to "Cops should lie less". If the scope of conversation you want to have excludes talking about actual solutions that could actually work, then you want to have a dumb and boring conversation, and I don't really care what you think is in scope or not.

# ? Aug 3, 2015 22:37

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

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