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ActusRhesus posted:You know there was a time I tried to do that. But the constant dog piles get tedious. Hence the creation of the ask tell thread so people who had genuine questions could get answers. Which thread exactly? I couldn't find one in Ask/Tell.
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Aug 3, 2015 22:42
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Jarmak posted:I didn't use any loving weasel words, I pointed out that your statistics are evidence of exactly the opposite of what you're asserting and why, a fact you've yet to address in any manner other then this smokescreen distraction bullshit. The murder rate is a fair point and I'm not going to pretend I fully understand that issue, but cases like "all other arrests" and "drug use" being wildly disproportionate, especially when you consider statistics like how when white people and black people have their car searched the white people are more likely to have drugs, that it's a result of systemic racism. It's also not an issue of cops not enforcing laws against white people, it's them targeting black people specifically and being much harsher on them for it. However, those statistics are in no way "evidence of exactly the opposite of what [I'm] asserting." They show that black people are disproportionately arrested for crime.
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Aug 3, 2015 22:42
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Javid posted:The processes involved with amending the US constitution are (intentionally) very difficult and require a lot of political will. It has happened, but not in a long time, and if there were enough consensus to go there we wouldn't be having this discussion. Constitutional solutions are not a productive use of energy to discuss, even if we pretend that repealing the 5th or 10th would be remotely a positive thing. It has been stated that there is a completely productive way that people who are experienced with and knowledgeable in the Law and Law enforcement could participate in such a discussion. To reiterate, it is one thing to see someone's suggestion as problematic, explain exactly how it could backfire or not work, and then offer up an alternative that accomplishes something similar, and it is another thing entirely to just hop into the thread and tell people that they are dumb idiots who don't know anything, or saying an idea is bad because it is too hard to pass IRL. Both have been done in this thread, but the latter is the reason why dogpiling happens. Also because it tends to cast those posters in the light of being a bit of police apologists, which might not even be true, but hey, sometimes the things you say and the way you say them make people form opinions about you. So one more time: A good thing would be: Person makes suggestion on a change to the system for the sake of discussion. Expert has knowledgeable opinion on why this could not work and explains it, while offering a much more workable solution without talking down to anyone or acting like an rear end in a top hat, because they are allegedly lawyers/cops/wtfever and should have better control over themselves than some random ignorant person right? No one gets mad unless they are crazy as a result of all this civil discourse. Of course the problem with this is that it assume that these "experts" would agree that there is a problem that needs fixing to begin with, which tends to not always be the case. Which is where the real arguments start.
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Aug 3, 2015 22:42
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DARPA posted:
Please include context. I said a state constitution amendment getting rid of elected judges would be easier (and a better idea) than trying to get rid of the fifth amendment. But this is a great example of why the lawyers get tired of participating here.
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Aug 3, 2015 22:46
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DARPA posted:Do you not use your turn signal when you visit a new state until a police officer tells you otherwise? Or move over for emergency vehicles? Or follow wipers on lights on? It isn't even following the law. It's about being good at driving. Which you aren't, which is why you keep getting pulled over. It was a stupid derail, but it took two to tango. It also is also counter productive because we spent 20 pages discussing an issue that was a non-issue: admissablity when we should have been discussing the lying rear end cop. Lawyers are not going to be apologize for being pedantic assholes, its in our job discription. Somehow correcting people as to what the law is made people bootlickers. This thread would be way better if people assumed that withvthe exception of the obvious trolls (and the racist), most people are approaching things here with good intentions. Attacking someone who disagrees with you or my favorite, generally agrees with you but is pointing out something wrong, is an automatic jackbooted thug lover is extremely counter productive.
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Aug 3, 2015 22:47
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Jarmak posted:I mean come on, "if its not proportional the cops are racist" is some silly bullshit, are you saying that the reason 52% of the murder arrests are black is because the cops aren't enforcing the murder laws against white people? Are they hiding the white bodies too? I think black people are arrested for crimes they didn't commit all the time and there are plenty of deaths in this country to account for white perpetrators getting away with literal murder. Lemming posted:It's also not an issue of cops not enforcing laws against white people, it's them targeting black people specifically and being much harsher on them for it. However, those statistics are in no way "evidence of exactly the opposite of what [I'm] asserting." They show that black people are disproportionately arrested for crime. He lives in justice world, where problems aren't problems if everyone has agreed it's cool. edit: Specifically, black people are arrested at a higher rate than white people, therefore black people are more criminal than white people. ElCondemn fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Aug 3, 2015 |
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Aug 3, 2015 22:47
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 Police report came out giving some context to this picture I posted earlier. Driver was drunk ping ponging around the street and a couple of passengers bolted when the officer pulled up. quote:The driver...continued to slowly exit the car in an almost exaggerated slow, methodical motion, and stay in a bladed stance; keeping her right arm from. Sgt Bartos then ordered Davis "SHOW ME YOUR HANDS, SHOW ME YOURS HANDS, SHOW ME YOUR HANDS!". Davis then in a slow, robotic motion raised her hands. Really weird way to describe someone slowly/safely complying with orders as to not startle the officer pointing a gun at her. Interesting in the police report starting on page 5 he describes the different field sobriety tests and which clues the driver fails so you get an idea of what officers look for when they're giving you the business. edit: Link to police report http://media.newsnet5.com/uploads/redacteddoc.pdf?_ga=1.264804303.1379206476.1438636460 DARPA fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Aug 3, 2015 |
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Aug 3, 2015 22:48
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DARPA posted:Do you not use your turn signal when you visit a new state until a police officer tells you otherwise? Or move over for emergency vehicles? Or follow wipers on lights on? It isn't even following the law. It's about being good at driving. Which you aren't, which is why you keep getting pulled over. This is the "everyone who drives slower than me is an idiot and everyone who drives faster than me is a maniac" thought process. You get out of the way of emergency vehicles. You use your Why? Because these are things you are taught to do. You know what my state didn't teach? Turn signals for lane changes. Something that was a law in other states. Again. Do you know the laws of other states? Say a state had a law on the books making it a violation for pulling over for emergency vehicles. And you did so because thats what you were taught. Does that make you a bad driver? Genocide Tendency fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Aug 3, 2015 |
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Aug 3, 2015 22:49
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DARPA posted:Really weird way to describe someone slowly/safely complying with orders as to not startle the officer pointing a gun at her. There's no way to win. Move too fast and you get a shot for "furtive movements" or move too slow and you get attacked by a dog.
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Aug 3, 2015 22:50
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DARPA posted:
Can you link? If passangers fled when the stop occured, I absolutely understand the felony stop, though I suspect the gun could have been not pointed. Edit: fun fact that a number of the "clues"any cops look for in FSTs don't actually appear in the published studies that kinda support their validity. Its almost like they made it up as they go along.
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Aug 3, 2015 22:50
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Genocide Tendency posted:This is the "everyone who drives slower than me is an idiot and everyone who drives faster than me is a maniac" thought process. What's funny is," ignorance of the law is never an excuse" is a constant police apologist refrain. Also I didn't need the state to mandate me use my windshield wipers in the rain...
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Aug 3, 2015 22:51
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Lemming posted:The murder rate is a fair point and I'm not going to pretend I fully understand that issue, but cases like "all other arrests" and "drug use" being wildly disproportionate, especially when you consider statistics like how when white people and black people have their car searched the white people are more likely to have drugs, that it's a result of systemic racism. Those statistics show that the crimes that contain the least amount of discretionary enforcement are the crimes with the most disproportionate arrests, which directly contradicts your assertion that the proportionality of the arrests is due to racist application of discretion. Also that car search statistic doesn't show that white people are more likely to have drugs, it shows that cops are more likely to conduct chickenshit fishing expedition searches against black people.
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Aug 3, 2015 22:51
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nm posted:Can you link? Whoops, sorry http://media.newsnet5.com/uploads/redacteddoc.pdf?_ga=1.264804303.1379206476.1438636460 Had the link in my post but i guess I dropped it while editing. Yeah the passengers fleeing seems like an escalation, except the officer says he goes and apprehends them later so I don't know about "fleeing" so much as "leaving a disabled vehicle that had the axle ripped off in traffic and waiting on the side of the street." quote:At this time i stopped the 2 males that fled from the Cadillac DARPA fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Aug 3, 2015 |
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Aug 3, 2015 22:52
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Trabisnikof posted:What's funny is," ignorance of the law is never an excuse" is a constant police apologist refrain. Also I didn't need the state to mandate me use my windshield wipers in the rain... Its not an excuse. I got the tickets and paid them. I didn't like it but that was the state law. And I missed the mistake in prof-reading. Its headlights in the rain. Thanks for pointing that out, Ill fix it.
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Aug 3, 2015 22:54
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Genocide Tendency posted:This is the "everyone who drives slower than me is an idiot and everyone who drives faster than me is a maniac" thought process. so it's not your fault you broke the law, you just had a poor upbringing?
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Aug 3, 2015 22:55
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Jarmak posted:Those statistics show that the crimes that contain the least amount of discretionary enforcement are the crimes with the most disproportionate arrests, which directly contradicts your assertion that the proportionality of the arrests is due to racist application of discretion. Also that car search statistic doesn't show that white people are more likely to have drugs, it shows that cops are more likely to conduct chickenshit fishing expedition searches against black people. This is literally my entire point...? That the cops' "discretion" is racist because they target black people out of proportion to how much crime they commit.
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Aug 3, 2015 22:56
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Popular Thug Drink posted:so it's not your fault you broke the law, you just had a poor upbringing? No. And I didn't say that. I broke the state traffic laws, I paid the tickets. Didn't like it, but thats the breaks. What I didn't do was throw a fit about how I got busted for "driving with out of state plates". But according to this thread if an african american gets pulled over its because "driving while black".
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Aug 3, 2015 22:57
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nm posted:It was a stupid derail, but it took two to tango. It also is also counter productive because we spent 20 pages discussing an issue that was a non-issue: admissablity when we should have been discussing the lying rear end cop. Lawyers are not going to be apologize for being pedantic assholes, its in our job discription. Somehow correcting people as to what the law is made people bootlickers. This thread would be way better if people assumed that withvthe exception of the obvious trolls (and the racist), most people are approaching things here with good intentions. Attacking someone who disagrees with you or my favorite, generally agrees with you but is pointing out something wrong, is an automatic jackbooted thug lover is extremely counter productive. Why should we assume people have good intentions? We know that there are people in this thread solely to be apologists for police and our justice system. They don't see a problem with the way our society works so they spend all day arguing about how the victim should've just done X or Y instead of Z or really anything except what the justice system/police should've/could've done right. Racism, bigotry and a sense of justice makes people believe in a system that ruins lives, I don't think it's popular to be on the side of potential criminals. That's why we constantly see the "they're no angel" argument in these kinds of threads. They act like it's a big joke, they can make jokes at the expense of people who've literally been killed, it's because they don't see the victims for what they are.
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Aug 3, 2015 22:58
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Apparently Police in Norway don't kill people very often. Even if you kill 77 children in cold blood. http://www.rawstory.com/2015/08/norways-police-havent-killed-a-single-person-in-nearly-10-years/ I guess cops in Norway are so uninteresting they keep statistics on how many times they have to pull their weapon. 42 times in 2014. We only track the people that cops actually kill .......ohhh wait, we don't even do that.
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Aug 3, 2015 22:58
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Genocide Tendency posted:No. accusing minorities of playing the race card is why people think you're a racist, because that's one of the go-to racist arguments what are your thoughts on al sharpton
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Aug 3, 2015 22:59
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DARPA posted:Whoops, sorry http://media.newsnet5.com/uploads/redacteddoc.pdf?_ga=1.264804303.1379206476.1438636460 If I'm reading that correctly, she ran from the motorcycle (I believe lights and sirens were on), crashed into multiple cars and only stopped when the vehcile wouldn't move and then everyone but the driver bolted. Given the wanton disregard for others safety and the fleeing, it would be objectively reasonable to assume that she was wanted for something and would take extreme action to avoid being arrested. I suspect the gun was proper (shooting would not have been, but easily could devolve into that situaton with the facts known). As for the discription, on a DUI stop in particular, all of the driver's actions need to be recorded in detail. In fact, if this was just a DUI the defense attorney in me would be happy with that disciption because I could argue she was not intoxicated. A reasonable, sober african american would be in fear for her life and would act the same.
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Aug 3, 2015 23:00
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Genocide Tendency posted:No. They are pulled over disproportionately. It is literally impossible to go into someone's brain and say "this is the part where the cop thinks I'll pull over that person because they're black!" The point is that since it happens disproportionately, it means that often the cops will pull over a black person when they wouldn't have pulled over a white person. Because of the above facts, people often aren't willing to give the cops the benefit of the doubt that any given stop wasn't at least partly racially motivated.
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Aug 3, 2015 23:02
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ElCondemn posted:Why should we assume people have good intentions? We know that there are people in this thread solely to be apologists for police and our justice system. They don't see a problem with the way our society works so they spend all day arguing about how the victim should've just done X or Y instead of Z or really anything except what the justice system/police should've/could've done right. Or you could just ignore the trolls, which is way more effective. nm fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Aug 3, 2015 |
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Aug 3, 2015 23:04
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Dahn posted:Apparently Police in Norway don't kill people very often. Even if you kill 77 children in cold blood. Should I point out how Colorado cops don't kill suspects of mass shootings? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Aurora_shooting .... Nah.. Popular Thug Drink posted:accusing minorities of playing the race card is why people think you're a racist, because that's one of the go-to racist arguments So calling someone out for using "driving while black" instead of the actual charge of failure to use a turn signal makes me racist? In this thread it is! quote:what are your thoughts on al sharpton He needs better accountants. But his nutritionist/personal trainer is a miracle worker.
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Aug 3, 2015 23:07
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Popular Thug Drink posted:accusing minorities of playing the race card is why people think you're a racist, because that's one of the go-to racist arguments He's not accusing minorities of playing the race card, I think hes accusing the middle class white people in this thread of playing the race card for them. Which is still rather silly given the preponderance of evidence that backs up the arguments that minorities are pulled over disproportionately for crimes that have a large degree of discretion on an officers part of enforcing. But still, important difference.
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Aug 3, 2015 23:09
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Popular Thug Drink posted:accusing minorities of playing the race card is why people think you're a racist, because that's one of the go-to racist arguments Well, we also think he's a racist because he calls black people "Darkie" and is literally happy to admit to being a racist. Like he has zero shame about it whatsoever.
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Aug 3, 2015 23:10
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^ I'm pretty sure that was said in a safe space and we're not allowed to discuss what is said in that safe space  Genocide Tendency posted:Should I point out how Colorado cops don't kill suspects of mass shootings? Weird how the cops can take him into custody without shooting him, but yet that's so hard for many minorities who aren't mass murderers....
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Aug 3, 2015 23:12
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chitoryu12 posted:Well, we also think he's a racist because he calls black people "Darkie" and is literally happy to admit to being a racist. Like he has zero shame about it whatsoever. Then why do you keep talking about his posts?
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Aug 3, 2015 23:12
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nm posted:If I'm reading that correctly, she ran from the motorcycle (I believe lights and sirens were on),
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Aug 3, 2015 23:14
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nm posted:Then why do you keep talking about his posts? This is the first time I said anything about them after saying that I'd be blocking him and Cole, because their contributions to this thread have been worse than useless.
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Aug 3, 2015 23:18
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^^^^^ Consider it the royal you. (Or something). DARPA posted:I reread that section a few times because it's worded strangely about the motorcycle being equipped with red and blue lights, but I think it just meant it was a marked police vehicle? She isn't charged with eluding/fleeing/failure to yield or whatever. I think the officer only caught up to her when she ripped her axle off. Either way woman was an idiot and the picture is both perfect with no context, and unfortunately timed with context. She hit 2 cars before stopping and the guys said "all she needed to do was stop." The other things I found interesting: Did she have a 0.12 or .012? They still do urine tests for drugs in ohio. That is loving crazy. Blood or nothing. Funny thing is if it was a 0.012 and a urine THC test, any defense attorney with any sense wins that case. Well, until she crashes into 2 cars.
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Aug 3, 2015 23:19
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Trabisnikof posted:Which thread exactly? I couldn't find one in Ask/Tell. check your inbox.
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Aug 3, 2015 23:23
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I assume a positive urine test is step 1 for compelling a blood draw. She must have blown a 0.012 because the officer uses the low BAC (which actually matches her statement of one 24oz beast 3-4 hours earlier) with a failed field sobriety test as a his reason to suspect a drug intoxication. DARPA fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Aug 3, 2015 |
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Aug 3, 2015 23:25
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Senf posted:Why did Sandra Bland die and you didn't? I think that's a fair question. I still think that's a fair question. I probably won't get much of an answer (or much beyond what you've already alluded to at this point), but I'm legitimately curious to hear your thoughts on it, Genocide.
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Aug 3, 2015 23:26
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nm posted:There are some obvious trolls, yes, and I addressed them. Yet, when people actually contributing make comments that don't 100% agree with the thread, they are shot down. The problem seems to be that some people can't tell the troll and the racist from the person who might disagree with a few things. How do you ignore the trolls if the racists and apologists sound the same as the supposed rational people arguing that the cops did nothing wrong? I don't think it's fair to assume people who sound racist/bigoted or like an apologist are secretly on your side. chitoryu12 posted:This is the first time I said anything about them after saying that I'd be blocking him and Cole, because their contributions to this thread have been worse than useless. I blocked them too, it's made things a lot nicer  Senf posted:I still think that's a fair question. I probably won't get much of an answer (or much beyond what you've already alluded to at this point), but I'm legitimately curious to hear your thoughts on it, Genocide. Because he's not the victim, if he were the victim he would've done X and Y, obviously!
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Aug 3, 2015 23:29
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Senf posted:I still think that's a fair question. I probably won't get much of an answer (or much beyond what you've already alluded to at this point), but I'm legitimately curious to hear your thoughts on it, Genocide. Because I didn't hang myself in a jail cell.
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Aug 3, 2015 23:30
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ElCondemn posted:How do you ignore the trolls if the racists and apologists sound the same as the supposed rational people arguing that the cops did nothing wrong? I don't think it's fair to assume people who sound racist/bigoted or like an apologist are secretly on your side. If you can't tell the difference between obvious trolls and people who are just simply pointing out that certain facts are incorrect perhaps you need to take a step back?
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Aug 3, 2015 23:32
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Genocide Tendency posted:Should I point out how Colorado cops don't kill suspects of mass shootings? Mass shooters are disproportionately white.  If you're black, you're murdered for selling cigarettes, or stealing cigars, or running from a cop or.... I'm not surprised you didn't know how to use basic safety equipment that is literally in every car made.
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Aug 3, 2015 23:34
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Genocide Tendency posted:Because I didn't hang myself in a jail cell. So why did Bland end up in a jail cell?
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Aug 3, 2015 23:34
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Senf posted:So why did Bland end up in a jail cell? Assaulting a police officer. E: why are you playing these games, just make your point instead of needlessly dragging it on.
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