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Genocide Tendency posted:
I'm not missing your point. People haven't come to the conclusion that there's institutional racism from the Sandra Black stop. They know there is institutional racism, and they believe this is an example of it. They've explained why. If you disagree that's fine, but all your "I'm white and got stopped" is completely irrelevant, and it makes you look bizarre that you think it is relevant. Nobody is claiming being pulled over only happens to blacks. I really can't tell if you're just playing dumb when you make that claim. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 04:26
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Genocide Tendency posted:Just because the cops enforce it more with blacks doesn't mean they only do it to blacks.  That is loving racism when laws are applied disproportionately to blacks because they are black. Genocide Tendency posted:I grasp stats. No. No you don't. Not in the least.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:27
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Armyman25 posted:Well, you've identified the problem. Correct. Bad selection, training, supervisory and watch dog/oversight processes. Which I have said before. But again. Its not always racism when they are black. Senf posted:Isn't this enough for us to say like, "hey, maybe he didn't need to ask her to get out of the car? Hell, we don't even know why he wanted her to get out in the first place." And we are right back to that pesky part where, per the Supreme Court, he can ask her to get out with out a reason.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:28
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VitalSigns posted:5 examples over 30 years and you had to go to several different countries to find them, wow you're right the country that has had dozens of murder-by-cop this year alone sure couldn't stand to learn anything here Those were all in england, whichbis one country. Please show me large numbers of succesfully prosecuted english cops. Or any cops. The difference isn't the prosecutions, but the actual number of occurance. Which you'd know if you actually read the post rather than "oh my god, someone disagrees with me! Must attack to preserve honor."
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Aug 4, 2015 04:28
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Genocide Tendency posted:He doesn't have to have a reason to tell her to get out of the loving car. So what. There are plenty of completely legal things I could do at my job that are not against the law but would still make me terrible at my job and my company would (and should) fire me for doing them. But I guess that's because I'm a professional and am held to higher standards of competence and conscientiousness beyond "just don't commit a crime on the job", I'm not a cop.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:30
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Genocide Tendency posted:
Nobody has said that it is, though, you fervent slayer of strawmen. quote:And we are right back to that pesky part where, per the Supreme Court, he can ask her to get out with out a reason. And again, if people want this to change, they can potentially do so through the political system. This isn't a trump card. People aren't claiming he did something illegal.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:31
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Obdicut posted:I'm not missing your point. People haven't come to the conclusion that there's institutional racism from the Sandra Black stop. They know there is institutional racism, and they believe this is an example of it. They've explained why. If you disagree that's fine, but all your "I'm white and got stopped" is completely irrelevant, and it makes you look bizarre that you think it is relevant. No its not irrelivent and that you keep dismissing someone else being pulled over for the same offense because they are white is loving stupid. LeeMajors posted:
Disagreeing with you doesn't make me wrong. But keep thinking that.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:31
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Genocide Tendency posted:No idea. Except there's a constant flow of statistic data supporting the assertion that an average cop will pull a black person over for an unsignaled lane change significantly more often than a white person, which is what people are frequently talking about when they talk about racist cops, and no quantity of beep boop shitposting is going to refute an assertion backed by data. You're trying to conflate a point of agreement (unsignaled lane change being an infraction) with the topic under argument (statistically that cop was far less likely to pull a white person over, thus avoiding them being murdered in a holding cell) and just claiming nobody really "gets" what you're saying when they're calling you on it. I'm gonna have a hard time putting this in terms your type understands since nuance beyond "is a moving violation" is apparently your personal unicorn and your frantic attempts at shifting the discussion to a point nobody's debating are just hilarious. You're putting blank space in between every sentence and failing to tie those fragments into a coherent argument for what's likely the same reason.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:32
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Genocide Tendency posted:Correct. Bad selection, training, supervisory and watch dog/oversight processes. It's just a coincidence that this bad selection, training and oversight happens to result in a system that disproportionately punishes people of color. Genocide Tendency posted:But again. Its not always racism when they are black. The only correct thing you've said all night. Congratulations, but no one is making that argument. It's racism when the prevailing trend is to meet people of color with disproportionate force and hostility--which is empirically shown. Genocide Tendency posted:Disagreeing with you doesn't make me wrong. In this case, you are wrong because you are wrong--not because we disagree.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:32
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nm posted:Those were all in england, whichbis one country. Please show me large numbers of succesfully prosecuted english cops. Or any cops. Your post was just irrelevant. 5 examples over three decades is not proof that England is just as bad, or of anything really.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:33
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VitalSigns posted:Your post was just irrelevant. 5 examples over three decades is not proof that England is just as bad, or of anything really. Find me 5 successful prosecution. Those were literally the easier I could fine while phone posting. You are proposing that other countries are better at prosecuting cops than we are. You provided no evidence. The burden is on you. Post something other than nah, nah, nah. I do not believe other countries are better at it. They are better at not killing people, which afain, I noted.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:36
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Genocide Tendency posted:And we are right back to that pesky part where, per the Supreme Court, he can ask her to get out with out a reason. So. Dense. You admit that we have no idea why he wanted her out of the car and that there was no good reason for her to be removed from the car... except that the law permits it, so that's reason enough? Incredible.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:36
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Genocide Tendency posted:No its not irrelivent and that you keep dismissing someone else being pulled over for the same offense because they are white is loving stupid. I'm not dismissing it, though. You can't actually be this dim, but let me make it as simple as possible. White people get pulled over for changing lanes without signalling. Black people get pulled over for changing lanes without signaling. Not every white person, observed by a cop to do this, gets pulled over. Not every black person, observed by a cop to do this, gets pulled over. A disproportionate number of black people get pulled over for this. That means that, compared to the driving population, a black person is more likely to be pulled over for this violation than a white person. This fits in with the ocean of statistics that show, controlling for other variables, that white people get treated better than other races in the criminal justice system. People look at this encounter and see signs that, to them, point to racism. You disagree with that--that's fine. But you can't disagree that black people are disproportionately targeted--and are at a disadvantage in every area of the justice system, compared to white people (again, when controlling for poverty) because this is statistically true. Racism in our society is a statistical fact--as well as trivially observable. VitalSigns posted:How do other developed countries manage to prosecute cops who openly commit beatings and murders instead of loving up the video evidence and letting them walk or skunking indictments of cops murdering people on video? To be fair to nm, I'm not sure this claim is true. Do you have any source for it? There's a lot of other things contributing to the difference between our justice system and others than 'successful prosecutions of cops'. I'd be super surprised if Japan, for example, prosecuted cops almost ever.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:37
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nm posted:Find me 5 successful prosecution. Those were literally the easier I could fine while phone posting. You are proposing that other countries are better at prosecuting cops than we are. You provided no evidence. The burden is on you. Post something other than nah, nah, nah. How about I find you 5 unsuccessful American prosecutions of murderous cops that happened just this year instead of needing 30 years. Any justice system is going to have at least 5 mistakes in 3 decades, what are you even trying to prove.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:41
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VitalSigns posted:How about I find you 5 unsuccessful American prosecutions of murderous cops that happened just this year instead of needing 30 years. You are proposing that other countries prosecute cops more succesfully than the US. Prove it. I'm calling you on an absolute statement you made with absolutely no backing. If you had backing, you'd have posted by now. I'd have better luck debating the unrepenting racist who believes DWB isn't a thing. He'd at least try.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:44
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Obdicut posted:To be fair to nm, I'm not sure this claim is true. Do you have any source for it? There's a lot of other things contributing to the difference between our justice system and others than 'successful prosecutions of cops'. I'd be super surprised if Japan, for example, prosecuted cops almost ever. I never claimed that successful prosecutions of cops is the only thing contributing to the difference between our justice system and others.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:45
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VitalSigns posted:I never claimed that successful prosecutions of cops is the only thing contributing to the difference between our justice system and others. 
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Aug 4, 2015 04:50
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VitalSigns posted:How about I find you 5 unsuccessful American prosecutions of murderous cops that happened just this year instead of needing 30 years. This is a pretty bad hill to die on. Other countries are loads better at having cops not shoot people, but claiming other countries are better at prosecuting cops is a pretty substantial claim. I'm going to guess most countries suck rear end at it.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:53
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VitalSigns posted:I never claimed that successful prosecutions of cops is the only thing contributing to the difference between our justice system and others. No, but I'm not sure your simple claim--that other nations manage to prosecute cops who openly beat and murder people. For most other developed countries, they kill very few people anyway, so that's probably not going to be that statistically strong. But in terms of cops who beat people: I haven't seen any data on this at all, and it's not intuitive that they'd be better at doing it. I know the Japanese system has absolutely routine abuse by cops.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:53
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nm posted:You are proposing that other countries prosecute cops more succesfully than the US. Prove it. I'm calling you on an absolute statement you made with absolutely no backing. If you had backing, you'd have posted by now. I don't know where to find the statistics you're asking for or if they even exist, because as you pointed out, the mere fact that police in other countries don't have anything like our rates of police brutality and murder mean that there's so much fewer opportunities to prosecute them anyway. All I can post are other anecdotes like yours, like even Turkey charged and convicted and jailed that officer from the iconic picture of him tear-gassing that woman in red: http://europe.newsweek.com/turkish-police-officer-who-pepper-sprayed-woman-red-ordered-plant-600-trees-328590  Compare that to what happened to the cop who pepper-sprayed nonviolent protestors in Oakland during occupy wall street (an administrative transfer to another department).
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Aug 4, 2015 04:54
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VitalSigns posted:I don't know where to find the statistics you're asking for or if they even exist, because as you pointed out, the mere fact that police in other countries don't have anything like our rates of police brutality and murder mean that there's so much fewer opportunities to prosecute them anyway. I think Japan probably has much higher rates of brutality.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:55
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This is a really stupid thing to argue about because it hinges on individual opinions on whether any particular acquitted cop was "really guilty" or not.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:59
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VitalSigns posted:I never claimed that successful prosecutions of cops is the only thing contributing to the difference between our justice system and others. VitalSigns posted:How do other developed countries manage to prosecute cops who openly commit beatings and murders instead of loving up the video evidence and letting them walk or skunking indictments of cops murdering people on video? I posted several extremely easily googlable counter example, because I couldn't find a whole rash of british or other cops getting convicted for killing people. Here's what really bugs me. I generally agree with you. I've fought with lying, corrupt cops and prosecutors my entire career. Dealing with the problems of the criminal jsutice system is essentially my life. Then people who claim to be my side post completely unsupported, unresearch claims that contibute to making the police reform people look like recationary fools. We absolutely can learn from other countries. Particularly in recruiting and training cops who don't kill everything that loving moves. I do not know that we have as much to learn from court proceedures of other countries. (This is different than sentencing). Other countries have serious issues. Japan has a horrifying system based on extracting confessions. Italy has a system when you have be retried over and over. This is not to say that the court system in the US doesn't need to change, but unless you can show that foreign countries do a better job at convicting cops, I don't think that we have much to learn. Remember that many systems are actually far more biased toward conviction which will hurt people in the same position as Sandra Bland - falsly accused by a lying rear end cop one a power trip - by making it even easier to convict them. Wrongful convictions, often based on sketchy police techniques are at least as big a problem as police killings.
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Aug 4, 2015 05:00
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The difference is that other countries don't even need to deal with the question of prosecution because their police aren't executing citizens for furtive movements. Sure they might suck as bad as prosecutors in the USA holding officers accountable, but if the question comes up orders of magnitude less often it isn't a systemic problem. Their systems work by not allowing the issue to even be raised.
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Aug 4, 2015 05:07
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In contrast to countries that do better than the U.S., there may be some that do worse, both in terms of killings of civilians by police, and killings of police by civilians: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-33757212 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/22/world/americas/police-killings-brazil-rio.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/12/world/americas/brazil-police-killed-11000-people-over-five-year-period-report-says.html Zwabu fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 05:09
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DARPA posted:The difference is that other countries don't even need to deal with the question of prosecution because their police aren't executing citizens for furtive movements. Our issue is not that killer cops get away with it, it is that we have way to many killer cops.
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Aug 4, 2015 05:10
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Obdicut posted:I think Japan probably has much higher rates of brutality. You're right, we should probably look at countries with lower rates of police brutality for inspiration, not at countries with higher rates. nm posted:I posted several extremely easily googlable counter example, because I couldn't find a whole rash of british or other cops getting convicted for killing people. Once again, 5 examples over 30 years isn't any kind of proof that their system is as bad or worse at prosecuting cops. It's a lot harder to find examples of cops who committed crimes and were punished for it, because "random guy does a crime, goes to jail" isn't an easily googlable persistently newsworthy thing. When England has 5 examples in 5 months like we have, then that will mean something. nm posted:We absolutely can learn from other countries. Particularly in recruiting and training cops who don't kill everything that loving moves. Yeah okay, sure. My main beef was with the persistent claims that doing anything about police brutality means upending the bill of rights, which is not true. I shouldn't have implied that other countries have a better record of prosecuting what abuse they do have if I didn't have proof. But we don't need to actually jettison the Bill of Rights to improve prosecutions of cops, because the issues in the US are institutional corruption. We don't have to repeal the 6th amendment right to confront an accuser to make sure that a police department's own dashcam footage is authenticated and admissible in court. We don't have to repeal the 5th amendment right against self-incrimination to fire any cop who pulls a Gonzales on the stand and suddenly claims he can't remember any of the events that were recorded happening on video right in front of his eyes. There are administrative ways we can reform the system and administrative penalties we can use against cops who abuse their authority in a technically-legal way. That example of inadmissible footage is a perfect opportunity to look at police and prosecutor procedures and say "oh my God how did the department record a crime happening on video, with full control over the recording apparatus and the tapes, and then somehow fail to authenticate their own footage is of the incident in question. That should never happen and we need a more robust procedure and people need to start losing their jobs if they can't adhere to it and criminals get away with crimes as a result" VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 05:11
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VitalSigns posted:Compare that to what happened to the cop who pepper-sprayed nonviolent protestors in Oakland during occupy wall street (an administrative transfer to another department). That's not all he got. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/23/pepper-spray-cop-uc-davis-compensation
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Aug 4, 2015 05:15
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LeeMajors posted:The only correct thing you've said all night. keep in mind that this same person also argued that it's unfair and cultish behavior when liberals correctly identify racist attitudes and thoughts, and that it's effectively censorship to point out said racism
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Aug 4, 2015 05:31
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Obdicut posted:Just like any individual rejection of a black candidate for a job may not be racism, but given what we know about employers rejecting black applicants at a much higher rate than whites (resumes of equivalent strength with black names get rejected far more often than those with white names) some of them definitely are rejections because of race. You're really understating the effects of racism in the application process: A black man with no criminal record is about equal to a white man fresh out of the pen for a felony. Being black is as bad as being a felon when applying for a job. Senf posted:You admit that we have no idea why he wanted her out of the car and that there was no good reason for her to be removed from the car... except that the law permits it, so that's reason enough? The part that's sad is we know exactly what would have happened: He'd have made her comply with his orders until he felt sufficiently respected, or placed her under arrest when she got tired of being his plaything. She was arrested for contempt of cop, and was always going to be arrested ever since he said "put out the cigarette". Harik fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 05:42
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Harik posted:You're really understating the effects of racism in the application process: A black man with no criminal record is about equal to a white man fresh out of the pen for a felony. this is quite the hyperbole.
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Aug 4, 2015 05:50
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Obdicut posted:I'm not dismissing it, though. You can't actually be this dim, but let me make it as simple as possible.
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Aug 4, 2015 05:53
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Dead Reckoning posted:The problem is that this thread absolutely loves extrapolating statistics to individual cases. You can say that you're more likely to get pulled over and searched if you're black, and I'll agree with you, but if you say that this particular motorist got pulled over because she was black and that a white person would not have been pulled over in the same situation, that's a ridiculous counterfactual. That's the disconnect. So racial profiling and racist enforcement exists, but should never be discussed in relation to any particular case because we can't Jedi mindmeld the officer to figure out if he specifically was being racist. How convenient! A problem exists but can never be brought up at all!
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Aug 4, 2015 05:58
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Dead Reckoning posted:The problem is that this thread absolutely loves extrapolating statistics to individual cases. You can say that you're more likely to get pulled over and searched if you're black, and I'll agree with you, but if you say that this particular motorist got pulled over because she was black and that a white person would not have been pulled over in the same situation, that's a ridiculous counterfactual. That's the disconnect. Racism without racists.
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Aug 4, 2015 06:01
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Cole posted:this is quite the hyperbole. hyperbole posted:In developing the tester profiles, emphasis was placed on adopting characteristics that were both numerically representative and substantively important. In the present study, the criminal record consisted of a felony drug conviction (possession with intent to distribute, cocaine) and 18 months of (served) prison time. A drug crime (as opposed to a violent or property crime) was chosen because of its prevalence, its policy salience, and its connection to racial disparities in incarceration.16 It is important to acknowledge that the effects reported here may differ depending on the type of offense.17 The Mark of a Criminal Record Devah Pager, Northwestern University But yes, I misstated it: You're better off being a white felon than a black man when applying for a job. Dead Reckoning posted:The problem is that this thread absolutely loves extrapolating statistics to individual cases. You can say that you're more likely to get pulled over and searched if you're black, and I'll agree with you, but if you say that this particular motorist got pulled over because she was black and that a white person would not have been pulled over in the same situation, that's a ridiculous counterfactual. That's the disconnect. The problem is that you can apply that logic to literally every case, so since it's never racism ever it must not be systemic racism at work. This goes with the study I posted as well: Since you can't prove any specific lack of a callback is due to racism there's obviously no racism in the hiring process, since 100% of all rejections cannot be proved to be based on racial grounds. In short, it's a bullshit argument designed to deflect and distract. Harik fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 06:02
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Really I think if you go through all those statistics about racial profiling, you'll find that they're all compromised of individual incidents that can't be called racist because how do you prove each and every individual incident wasn't just coincidental without ridiculous counterfactuals like "what are the odds a white person would have been arrested for the same crime"
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Aug 4, 2015 06:03
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Harik posted:The Mark of a Criminal Record Devah Pager, Northwestern University Do you have anything more recent? A good majority of those sources are around 20 years old.
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Aug 4, 2015 06:09
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VitalSigns posted:Really I think if you go through all those statistics about racial profiling, you'll find that they're all compromised of individual incidents that can't be called racist because how do you prove each and every individual incident wasn't just coincidental without ridiculous counterfactuals like "what are the odds a white person would have been arrested for the same crime" Well you see, a missing license plate is a citation so Sam Dubose should have seen that bullet coming.
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Aug 4, 2015 06:12
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captainblastum posted:Every aspect of American society is racist. When you account for socio-economic status, it is still racist. Poverty alone does not explain the significantly disproportionate experiences that people of different races have at every level of our judicial system. Christ almighty am I not comfortable with authority figures "joking" like this
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Aug 4, 2015 06:20
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Cole posted:Do you have anything more recent? A good majority of those sources are around 20 years old. To get this straight: Is your contention that we've eliminated racism in the past 20 years?
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Aug 4, 2015 06:23
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