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How should I know that's why I asked. I just read this thread for fun and know nothing about the military. I literally hid my (technical) citizenship from Germany until they repealed national service because gently caress spending 2 years in the Bundeswehr.
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Aug 4, 2015 04:10
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Xiahou Dun posted:This is dumb and vague, but how the gently caress do Warrant Officers work? It came up (reading a British book), and from skimming the Wikipedia I'm just getting more and more confused. Warrant officers are weird. They are (or were?) enlisted men, so they started off as privates, and have risen through the ranks to a senior position. However, they are still lower in rank than officers, even the rawest new lieutenant. They also have their own hierarchy, with WO class 1, class 2, etc. Usually the lowest WO position is the Company sergeant major (CSM), who takes care of the a lot of admin and thankless stuff like setting uniform and behaviour standards etc etc, sometimes running training. On parade, they are the ones who coordinate all the different parts of the unit (because there may be multiple officers one person is needed to give the commands). If the officers want to give a rousing speech, the CSM is the one who forms the parade. Because they have been in a long time, they usually serve as a knowledge repository for unit traditions and in general how the unit operates. Therefore its wise for the young officers to listen to them and they often make suggestions or changes (but always as a suggestion, never as an order.) The Regimental sergeant major is the same, but has responsibility for a larger unit. Above that, there is an appointment (not a rank) called Sergeant-major of the army, who is the highest ranking non-officer in the army. He is sort of a conduit between the high command and the rest of the army who also sets some low level policies army-wide. (GIP hated the US army SMA chandler because he meddled with uniform regulations and tattoo policies.) Additionally, the US (and probably other nations) has a lot of helicopter pilots who are WOs (usually at a lower grade, like class 4 or 5ish), presumably so they are responsible for the aircraft and crew while being junior pilots.)
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Aug 4, 2015 04:34
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I think warrant officers are just a way to promote people without sending them into
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Aug 4, 2015 04:38
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Cyrano4747 posted:Tomorrow I start a multi day road trip across Virginia Maryland and Delaware. We're hitting something like 15 civil war battlefields. The only major one were skipping is Gettysburg because everyone has done that one already. Please flip off as many statues of Rebel generals as possible. Longstreet excepted.
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Aug 4, 2015 05:14
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Please flip off as many statues of Rebel generals as possible. Longstreet excepted. Piss on a stone wall in Chancellorsville, and flip that fucker's statue/grave off in Lexington, VA. E: You could do the same at the Arlington mansion but that overlaps the graves of American war dead rather than being one for confederates. FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 06:26
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Xiahou Dun posted:This is dumb and vague, but how the gently caress do Warrant Officers work? It came up (reading a British book), and from skimming the Wikipedia I'm just getting more and more confused. Earlier in this thread I wrote up a blurb on Warrant Officers, in particular from the modern American perspective: quote:So Warrant Officers: If we accept that the basic roles of a junior enlisted is to work and fight, an NCO is to organize and direct, and an officer is to coordinate and lead, then we're left with a basic military hierarchy that is pretty good for commanding troops. The junior enlisted essentially have the least amount of responsibility, while the officers have the most, but everyone has their specific role. And this works pretty well when you're just talking about soldiers. The problem that appears is when militaries start acquiring expensive and delicate equipment - the boats, tanks, and aircraft of modern warfare. It takes lots of experience and responsibility to operate them, which means you need better trained and higher ranked soldiers. If I were to add anything, it's that Warrant Officers in the historical British Navy (which broadly introduced the concept) are great at exemplifying how the idea worked. While the ship's command officers were granted commissions to act as officers within the Navy, and generally come from the elite British classes, they were heavily reliant on commoner technical specialists like carpenters, boatswains, and gunners to actually operate the vessel. As such, they'd grant the leaders of these roles a limited officer warrant to give out orders - on the basis of their expertise.
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Aug 4, 2015 06:39
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There's an old saw that the only three words any officer needs to know to have a successful career are "carry on, Sergeant".
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Aug 4, 2015 08:36
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JcDent posted:There was supposed to be a "not" in there. There's a great many factors that come into play, but key among them were: 1) The resolve of the soviet soldiers at this point in time. They knew that they were fighting a decisive battle, and their morale was high because their lot was gradually getting better, believe it or not. They were receiving new tactics, equipment etc. while the German soldiers were used to mild weather, lots of rest and technical superiority, and couldn't get that any longer. Your basic Ivan had been reared on poo poo food, too much work, terrible training and going into battle without backup, and now he was getting his own back. 2) The Red Army being, well, the Red Army. For those inclined to leave, they knew that they would eat the bullet of a blocking detachment or be sent to clear mines with their feet in a penal batallion. Those who wouldn't behave heroically on their own, were being forced to do their jobs by the NKVD. 3) The excellent progress the Red Army made with regards to leadership and strategy. A man like Zhukov, who had halted the Germans at Moscow, could really get folks motivated behind him. The politruks were forced into the background, and even line officers were learning to show initiative and cooperation.
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Aug 4, 2015 10:31
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:There's an old saw that the only three words any officer needs to know to have a successful career are "carry on, Sergeant". There's a classic apocryphal US military story with a million different versions, usually about a bunch of trainee officers who get asked how they'd put up a flagpole, and they all spend loads of time planning out exactly how it should be done and who should do it, and then their trainer tells them "You're all wrong. What you should do is say 'Sergeant, get that flagpole up.'" 100 Years Ago Yesterday: The situation in Africa has reached a balancing point; nothing more can reasonably done until Mimi and Toutou arrive at Lake Tanganyika, which will take a while yet. Herbert Sulzbach has once again lucked into a quiet sector, serving with people he enjoys being around, General Joffre's finest minds have produced more or less exactly the same plan for Second Champagne as for First Champagne, and we begin the extended story of Captain the Hon. Thomas Agar-Robartes MP, late of the House of Commons, now a company commander in the 1st Coldstream Guards, as he seeks revenge for being badly shelled a few days ago. Today: IX Corps's generals go to Suvla Bay on a destroyer for some personal reconaissance; all of them in disguise as ordinary sailors. Ordinary sailors may well have done a better job of generalship, so it's only appropriate. General Joffre is once again peturbed by suggestions that moving his wine cellar six inches closer to Berlin might not be the only way to win the war, and Captain Robartes's weaponised band strikes up "The Watch on the Rhine" just before midnight.
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Aug 4, 2015 11:37
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Bah, I was going to go to iremember to look at some memoirs, but it seems like the Russian information ministry had pooped a load of Web 2.0 over the entire site and made navigating it impossible. But anyway, another point on the morale question is that that old adage about a million deaths being a statistic also applies. The Russians did have morale problems, but by 1942 another army being chopped up is nothing much new. At some point you are just so traumatised by the constant death and destruction that you become numb to it.
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Aug 4, 2015 13:53
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Tias posted:There's a great many factors that come into play, but key among them were: I think you should add that by this point, all the Soviets knew that the Nazis were going enslave/kill every slav they could get their hands on, and that this was a 'war of annihilation'. When you know the enemy is genocidal toward your country, that's one hell of a reason to fight.
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Aug 4, 2015 16:41
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Tias posted:There's a great many factors that come into play, but key among them were: The NKVD didn't make up blocking detachments, those were regular army units. Also I think you're confusing politruks and commissars.
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Aug 4, 2015 16:55
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Nebakenezzer posted:I think you should add that by this point, all the Soviets knew that the Nazis were going enslave/kill every slav they could get their hands on, and that this was a 'war of annihilation'. When you know the enemy is genocidal toward your country, that's one hell of a reason to fight. Not so much. An enormous proportion of the German army ration strength consisted of Russian 'hiwis' (in 6th Army's case up to a quarter by the point of Stalingrad). As far as morale goes; Beevor mentions desertions to the Germans continuing even after 6th army was encircled - the Russian soldiers didn't actually believe their own side telling them they were winning.
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Aug 4, 2015 16:57
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Alchenar posted:Not so much. An enormous proportion of the German army ration strength consisted of Russian 'hiwis' (in 6th Army's case up to a quarter by the point of Stalingrad). As far as morale goes; Beevor mentions desertions to the Germans continuing even after 6th army was encircled - the Russian soldiers didn't actually believe their own side telling them they were winning. I find it questionable that you can use the presence of Hiwis and anecdotal accounts of desertions to infer anything whatsoever in this context. EDIT: Don't forget that the 2500 or so members of the collaborationist Jewish Police in the Warsaw Ghetto outnumbered the 2000 Nazis (only approximately 800 of which were SS) eventually sent to clear the Ghetto. That doesn't mean it wasn't clear that the Nazis were genocidal. It just means they supplemented their forces with a mix of slave labour and desperate collaborators with little to lose. Fangz fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 17:12
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Ensign Expendable posted:The NKVD didn't make up blocking detachments, those were regular army units. Also I think you're confusing politruks and commissars. And blocking detachments didn't shoot retreating soldiers except in Call Of Duty.
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Aug 4, 2015 17:16
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Fangz posted:I find it questionable that you can use the presence of Hiwis and anecdotal accounts of desertions to infer anything whatsoever in this context. Oh the Nazis absolutely had their genocidal plan for the East. But if you look at the actual practice of the Wehrmacht on the front line they absolutely made massive use of 'volunteer' forces. e: and it's that practice on the front line that Red Army soldiers would have most reference to. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 17:24
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gohuskies posted:And blocking detachments didn't shoot retreating soldiers except in Call Of Duty. To be fair to that game series for once, that bullshit started in Enemy At The Gates.
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Aug 4, 2015 17:40
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Alchenar posted:e: and it's that practice on the front line that Red Army soldiers would have most reference to. I do not believe this at all.
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Aug 4, 2015 18:08
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SeanBeansShako posted:To be fair to that game series for once, that bullshit started in Enemy At The Gates. Not earlier? So, if soviet blocking units never shot their own desertes, what did the blocking units do?
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Aug 4, 2015 19:00
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SeanBeansShako posted:To be fair to that game series for once, that bullshit started in Enemy At The Gates. 
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Aug 4, 2015 19:03
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JcDent posted:Not earlier? So, if soviet blocking units never shot their own desertes, what did the blocking units do? Group them up and send them back to the fight like blocking detachments since the Napoleonic had done? Did they suddenly stop being soldiers just because their formation broke?
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Aug 4, 2015 19:05
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There's a difference between "punishing deserters" and "punishing retreaters."
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Aug 4, 2015 19:21
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AF Lindley states that the Taiping would have swordsmen at the back of the formation to cut down anyone who fled after the black flag had been raised. He was on their side so he wouldn't make anything up to make them look bad. Might still just have been repeating rumor, though, there are plenty of other things he got wrong and he doesn't claim to have seen it firsthand.
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Aug 4, 2015 19:26
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xthetenth posted:Group them up and send them back to the fight like blocking detachments since the Napoleonic had done? But also they could just summarily execute any men who'd disobeyed a stand fast order, I remember reading some accounts of this happening at least at the destruction of 2nd Shock Army at Volkhov Front. But they didn't mow them down with machinegun fire like in fiction, and what would be the point anyway, one pistol bullet to the neck suffices.
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Aug 4, 2015 19:39
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JcDent posted:Not earlier? So, if soviet blocking units never shot their own deserters, what did the blocking units do? They mostly shouted at retreating/lost troops and returned them to the front line. They didn't shoot on sight. The 3rd answer on this page gives pretty good details. http://www.quora.com/Did-Soviet-off...my-at-the-Gates That being said, I have read that blocking units would open fire on Soviet units actively surrendering to the Germans.
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Aug 4, 2015 19:43
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The last living "Dambuster" pilot just died at age 96.
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Aug 4, 2015 20:36
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JcDent posted:Not earlier? So, if soviet blocking units never shot their own desertes, what did the blocking units do? The gist of it is that blocking detachments were supposed to stop and assess soldiers going back from the front, figure out what happened, treat wounded, and reconstitute shattered units into some form of fighting shape and hopefully send them back to the front. Obviously if you were to appear on your own, without papers, having defaced your insignia and without your weapon then you are in lethally deep poo poo, but they wouldn't just machine gun you en masse. Manpower was too precious for that. quote:A report to Commissar General of State Security Lavrentiy Beria on October 10, 1941, noted that since the beginning of the war, NKVD anti-retreat troops had detained a total of 657,364 retreating or deserting personnel, of which 25,878 were arrested (of which 10,201 were sentenced to death by court martial) and the rest were returned to active duty. Most of those arrested were later returned to active duty as well. Fangz fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 21:22
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:
How? The unit would be placed way too far back for this to be possible in any meaningful way. JcDent posted:Not earlier? So, if soviet blocking units never shot their own desertes, what did the blocking units do? They didn't have the authority to execute anyone. Detain suspicious running soldiers? Yes. Pass them onto a tribunal? Certainly. Executions? Not their department. Also a lot of commanders didn't like blocking detachments and used them for tedious things like guarding the HQ. Ensign Expendable fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 21:24
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It's kinda weird how far the weird, inaccurate (to say the least) ideas about communist commissars penetrated. I mean, wasn't aware of how wrong my perceived knowledge of commissars (short version:  ) was until fairly recently, and my great-aunt was married to one!
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Aug 4, 2015 23:11
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Ensign Expendable posted:How? The unit would be placed way too far back for this to be possible in any meaningful way. From this paper: http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents/blockdet.htm Whoops, it seems like it was a regular officer was responsible, and was an extraordinary event as well.
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Aug 5, 2015 01:58
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So despite being fascinated with Operation Market Garden ever since seeing what I thought was a James Bond movie when I was eight or nine years old (I mean... what else has Sean Connery ever done?) I have never actually read Cornelius Ryan's A Bridge Too Far until now. In Part 1 Chapter 2 I came across the following gem:quote:Her mother, Hendrina Schulte, vividly recalls seeing a German truck carrying another kind of booty. It was a large double bed - and in the bed was a woman. You can tell that Cornelius is a dub from the tone of the work. It is just 
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Aug 5, 2015 02:31
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Arquinsiel posted:So despite being fascinated with Operation Market Garden ever since seeing what I thought was a James Bond movie when I was eight or nine years old (I mean... what else has Sean Connery ever done?) I have never actually read Cornelius Ryan's A Bridge Too Far until now. In Part 1 Chapter 2 I came across the following gem: The Longest Day.
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Aug 5, 2015 07:36
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Nebakenezzer posted:I think you should add that by this point, all the Soviets knew that the Nazis were going enslave/kill every slav they could get their hands on, and that this was a 'war of annihilation'. When you know the enemy is genocidal toward your country, that's one hell of a reason to fight. Yeah, that too. At this point, a lot of stories had filtered back about how nazi guards had killed prisoners for sport or starved them to death. There even were certain soldiers who had 'hopped twice', deserting to join the Germans and then re-deserting to join their own side. Ensign Expendable posted:The NKVD didn't make up blocking detachments, those were regular army units. Also I think you're confusing politruks and commissars. Yes and no. With order 227 (?) regular soldiers were to be used as blocking detachments, but officers valued keeping their best soldiers on the front, and (at least according to Ivan's War) placed infirm, old or retarded soldiers in the detachments, which didn't really work out, and by October 1942 blocking work had reverted completely to NKVD troops. I don't know that I am? Politruks had had a great many privileges towards the troops, including that of discipline, and with the removal of Lev Mekhlis from the political administration of the army, they were reduced to barrack-rooms pep talk men. gohuskies posted:And blocking detachments didn't shoot retreating soldiers except in Call Of Duty. Do you mean Enemy at the Gates lied to me?  But seriously, I'm guessing it happened. Assuming from the incredible number of field executions made by commissars, non coms and officers, I can't imagine someone somewhere didn't let off a burst or two.my dad posted:It's kinda weird how far the weird, inaccurate (to say the least) ideas about communist commissars penetrated. I mean, wasn't aware of how wrong my perceived knowledge of commissars (short version: Where would be a good place to learn about the experiences of a commissar? Tias fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 07:52
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Turkson posted:The Longest Day. The Hill.
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Aug 5, 2015 09:17
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Reading about WWII you understand that hindsight is a bitch on the one doing the hindsight, too. All those changes you culd do, and all those changes that weren't done because they were impossible.
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Aug 5, 2015 09:38
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Tias posted:
Well, its not hardcore academic history, but Sandy Mitchell wrote some fairly well researched fiction books on the life of a commissar in some fairly hot-water situations. I'd say they give you a feel for how a commissar lived
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Aug 5, 2015 11:37
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Nuclear War posted:Well, its not hardcore academic history, but Sandy Mitchell wrote some fairly well researched fiction books on the life of a commissar in some fairly hot-water situations. I'd say they give you a feel for how a commissar lived
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Aug 5, 2015 12:00
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Xiahou Dun posted:How should I know that's why I asked. Man is your knowledge out of date. When the draft was paused (it still can be reactivated anytime in an emergency), the service time had already shrunk down to 9 months, a third of it basic training. Also people who hate the military could and still can enter the civil service instead to help old people and stuff. The difference is just, well the new civil service is volunteer-based. Can you imagine how hilarious it would have been if your misinformed rear end would have been drafted into the civil service if it hadn't been changed to be voluntary? Based on your wrong information, I think you would have been in real danger to help people! 
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Aug 5, 2015 12:08
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Arquinsiel posted:I'm not sure Tyranids were much of a problem on the Eastern Front, but apart from that... Thats what they want you to think. Dont buy into Big History and their sanitized version of events
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Aug 5, 2015 12:54
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Libluini posted:Man is your knowledge out of date. When the draft was paused (it still can be reactivated anytime in an emergency), the service time had already shrunk down to 9 months, a third of it basic training. Also people who hate the military could and still can enter the civil service instead to help old people and stuff. The difference is just, well the new civil service is volunteer-based. Why are you so salty that some guy didn't want to waste his time in the military? I know an Israeli guy who faked a mental illness to get out of it.
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Aug 5, 2015 13:00
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