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Sakurazuka posted:I always assume Tomino has all this stuff in his head but just forgets that he hadn't told the viewer. It the only way Katejina makes any sense, anyway. I never had any problems making the connection with Zeta Char to CCA Char, but Katejina? I have no loving idea.
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Aug 4, 2015 11:07
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W.T. Fits posted:Best example of this in the original MSG would probably be Garma's death. Garma was pretty much the only Zabi kid who was shown to be a semi-decent person, and he trusted Char like he was family. It's entirely possible that if the two of them had worked together, they could have likely ended the war sooner and reformed the Principality from the inside by working against Gihren and Kycillia. Maybe even gotten some progress going on that whole "Newtypes are the next stage of human evolution so we should be on the lookout for them and nuture them" thing that Char's father was so keen on. I saw a pic from one video game where Garma does take over Zeon. Degwin and Dozle are in the shot, looking so proud. No idea where Char is there. Maybe dead. As someone who liked Garma a lot, I really loving hated Char in MSG. He was a scumbag just as vile as any of the Zabis. (well, except maybe Gihren) He also had no proof that they even did kill his dad. But Zeta was Char trying to turn around his life and be a better person. I could respect that. Until he shouted that he "never betrayed anyone ever." Then I wanted to punch him. One of the other best explanations I've seen for Char is that he's so hosed in the head that he can adopt new personas as required. From that warped perspective he never had betrayed anyone, because he's Quattro, not Char. CCA is yet another persona/mask he adopted because the old Quattro mask no longer served a purpose. It fits with his constant theme of running away from the past.
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Aug 4, 2015 15:23
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BlitzBlast posted:The vast majority of viewers came in from Zeta or ZZ, where last they saw Char was a "good guy". The last time anyone saw Char he was having everyone slaughtered around him and had explicitly abandoned them and left his mobile suit behind, and Bright says that he suspects Char is on the sidelines waiting for the right moment to return to the spotlight. If people only remember "the last time we saw Char he was a good guy" they're forgetting the context of that. Monaghan posted:No Garma's death was a net positive. He was fighting to further his family's bid for world domination and had no real motivation to stop. I don't see Char making him have a change of heart. This is actually explicitly not the intended reading. The entire reason why Degwin Zabi was so shattered by Garma's death is because Garma is the one son he could depend on to stop what Zeon had become. Garma had a hunger to prove himself but was also explicitly supposed to be the 'good Zabi.' As presented Garma probably would have helped Char. (And in fact it's a pretty common "What if" scenario that Garma surviving leads to a moderate reformed Zeon faction.) Remember the Degwin Zabi is not actually the most hosed up member of his family. He is the guy who called Ghiren Zabi a Hitler and who actively wanted to end the war. Garma was his hope that the least-batshit member of his family might be able to stop the absurdity. Degwin was power-hungry but it was his children who really took over and made Zeon what it was while reducing him to figurehead status. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 15:34
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BlitzBlast posted:The big issue is just how there's absolutely no in-between from Quattro to CCA Char. You can explain it, and there's certainly a proper gap in time between the two shows for Char to go full gently caress it, but it ultimately remains a problem of some other dude telling you what happened instead of the movie itself showing you. The vast majority of viewers came in from Zeta or ZZ, where last they saw Char was a "good guy". Then they walk into CCA and he's straight up colony dropping. That is a tremendous whiplash, and no amount of explanations or sardonic "it makes perfect sense, don't be an idiot" will ever address that. ImpAtom touches on this but the last time the viewer sees Char is when the AEUG is being ground to paste all around him and Axis is furiously stabbing the AEUG in the back as hard as it can. Everything he worked for for the entirety of Zeta is falling to pieces around him and instead of sticking around to try to fix it he literally goes "gently caress all that" and vanishes entirely. That's not a subtle reading of the scene that requires smug literary analysis and symbolic interpretation, that's a straight on "this is what happened". Char is trying to be a good guy for most of Zeta and him being a good guy didn't work and everything sucked and hosed up and fell apart at the end of Zeta. You don't get a scene of it zooming in on an angry Char's face while he shakes his fist and says "I WILL HAVE MY REVENGE FOR THIS!!!!", I suppose, but anyone who watches the whole early UC progression(or even just MSG > Z > CCA because ZZ is largely irrelevant for Char's personal development) should be able to figure out that Char has a noted habit of running away from things and starting completely fresh when the old thing doesn't work out, because that's literally exactly what he did when Zeon fell apart and he disappeared and reappeared as Quattro, who is an entirely different person from Zeon Ace Char Aznable. Quattro to CCA Char isn't him doing something new and unexpected, it's him repeating the EXACT SAME THING he did from MSG to Zeta(except instead of going heel to face he's going face to heel) and nobody complains about that.
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Aug 4, 2015 16:14
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Char just can't commit. Char is an rear end. Char. Somebody needs to update the lyrics of that song in retrospect.
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Aug 4, 2015 16:21
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So when thinking about the people Char has actually cared about (as much as he is capable of caring) I got: Lalah, Sayla ,Kamille.... And that's about it. Regardless of that lovely manga, is there any indication Char ever gave a poo poo about Haman? Someone was claiming Char's going off the deep end had more to do with his relationship with Haman than his relationship with Kamille. My understanding of the former is just that Haman liked him and Char couldn't have cared less about her.
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Aug 4, 2015 16:42
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NikkolasKing posted:So when thinking about the people Char has actually cared about (as much as he is capable of caring) I got: Lalah, Sayla ,Kamille.... In origin it's clear that he loves his mom.
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Aug 4, 2015 16:57
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Monaghan posted:In origin it's clear that he loves his mom. He also pretty clearly loved his dad even though the glimpse of his dad we get in Origin is "howling madman". Then again that was child Casval prior to all of the things that turned him into the broken person that is Char.
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Aug 4, 2015 17:03
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BlitzBlast posted:The big issue is just how there's absolutely no in-between from Quattro to CCA Char. You can explain it, and there's certainly a proper gap in time between the two shows for Char to go full gently caress it, but it ultimately remains a problem of some other dude telling you what happened instead of the movie itself showing you. The vast majority of viewers came in from Zeta or ZZ, where last they saw Char was a "good guy". Then they walk into CCA and he's straight up colony dropping. That is a tremendous whiplash, and no amount of explanations or sardonic "it makes perfect sense, don't be an idiot" will ever address that. But he explains his motivations on camera. This isn't complex or hard. It's just that people want Char to have become a good guy, so when they see CCA they feel the need to invent reasons why it doesn't make sense.
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Aug 4, 2015 17:09
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Char was right.
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Aug 4, 2015 17:12
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I also am a bit dubious about the claims that it's such a terrible choice to have Char be who he is in CCA vs who he is in Zeta. It's been six years in between the two chronologically story wise, and people do go through changes in that time. I once attended a talk by Michael Ondaatje, author of The English Patient, and he was talking about characters who are not "on screen" at a given time. His ultimate point was that just because a character is unseen and that their development as it were isn't directly shown shouldn't mean they're just sitting in a room waiting to resume where they were when they exited the narrative. Char was living his life and has decided that the whole Neo-Zeon movement was the best course of action. It's fine to not like that direction, that's up to taste, but I don't think it's a failure on Tomino's part not to "show" every pivotal moment in Char's life from 0088-0093. Judging from a lot of Char's past self destructive behavior, his inability to form good relationships, and his daddy issues, it wasn't too much of a stretch, but that's just me. I would say that Haman certainly had Char as a significant figure in her life when he showed up at Axis after the OYW. It certainly embittered her, regardless of what happened. It wasn't so much Char cared for her, he obviously didn't, it's that he was involved in a life that he could not share, for a variety of reasons. She's not special, just another one in his long string of failed relationships because he's someone that can't feel love. TNG fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 17:17
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MonsieurChoc posted:But he explains his motivations on camera. This isn't complex or hard. It's just that people want Char to have become a good guy, so when they see CCA they feel the need to invent reasons why it doesn't make sense. Yah It's a weird transition at first but I feel it makes a lot more sense when you view Zeta Char as a dude whose current goals just happened to be aligned with the good guys at the time.
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Aug 4, 2015 17:22
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My problem with CCA isn't that Char decided to reveal himself (again?) as an rear end in a top hat, but that he revealed himself to be a stupid rear end in a top hat. "Let's render the ancestral home of humanity uninhabitable. This will lead to peace guys. Really. Honest." edit: although thinking about it, this sort of poo poo is pretty par for the course for Zeon et al. Pureauthor fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 17:27
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NikkolasKing posted:As someone who liked Garma a lot, I really loving hated Char in MSG. He was a scumbag just as vile as any of the Zabis. (well, except maybe Gihren) He also had no proof that they even did kill his dad. But Zeta was Char trying to turn around his life and be a better person. I could respect that. Until he shouted that he "never betrayed anyone ever." Then I wanted to punch him. Char basically went bugfuck insane somewhere between when his dad gets murdered and 0079, and pretty much the entirety of UC is just a chronicle of Char's slow descent further and further into insanity.
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Aug 4, 2015 17:30
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Really I don't even think his plan to destroy the Earth was really an end goal for him, just another step in loving with Amuro to get back at him for killing Lalah. Why? Because Char.
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Aug 4, 2015 17:34
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Char basically went bugfuck insane somewhere between when his dad gets murdered and 0079, and pretty much the entirety of UC is just a chronicle of Char's slow descent further and further into insanity. The question really is this, who is the more crazy? Char or the entire cast of Gundam Wing?
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Aug 4, 2015 17:43
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SeanBeansShako posted:The question really is this, who is the more crazy? Char or the entire cast of Gundam Wing? In the context of their respective universes, Char is definitely 100% crazier because sane people exist in UC whereas everyone we see on screen in Wing is some degree of nutbag so Relena screaming for someone to come kill her isn't that bizarre when one of the world's foremost political leaders believes that mobile suits should only have melee weapons because it makes combat more honorable and beautiful. In the context of the real world, the Wing people are way crazier because a real life Char would merely be a disillusioned terrorist or cult leader and thus understandable whereas Wing people are so weird that they'd basically be pod people compared to normal humans.
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Aug 4, 2015 17:47
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SeanBeansShako posted:The question really is this, who is the more crazy? Char or the entire cast of Gundam Wing? One person of said cast is speedrunning Char's life. I think Wing wins.
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Aug 4, 2015 17:47
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I really wish there was more to the Zeta Phase. It was like, two episodes tops. Then again, I liked the MSG Phase of Zechs more than I actually liked MSG Char so oh well. MSG Zechs was actually kind of a cool dude which is why he left in the first place.
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Aug 4, 2015 17:54
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Pureauthor posted:My problem with CCA isn't that Char decided to reveal himself (again?) as an rear end in a top hat, but that he revealed himself to be a stupid rear end in a top hat. It's interesting, since by the time most Gundam stories have taken place, a lot of humanity has adapted to living ,and are thriving, in space. Being "Newtypes", ie people adapted to living in space, really doesn't relieve the human condition, but it certainly makes sense why Char thinks it will be good for humanity. It's especially notable considering how Tomino changes his mind around Turn A Gundam about space colonization. In his words, he thinks people would hate living in space because they "couldn't see the sky".
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Aug 4, 2015 17:55
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I'd love for the Zeta era to be revisted at some point and the focus be on the neutral colonies dealing with the insanity of the events.
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Aug 4, 2015 17:57
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A fifty episode series of Moon Moon shenanigans.
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Aug 4, 2015 18:00
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Pureauthor posted:My problem with CCA isn't that Char decided to reveal himself (again?) as an rear end in a top hat, but that he revealed himself to be a stupid rear end in a top hat. It's basically religion. Which I don't want to sound like smug fedora atheist but religious beliefs are not always grounded in sensible logic. If anything Newtypism has more going for it because you can literally point to it as being a real thing with physical proof. You can legitimately argue "everyone going into space brings about an evolution of humanity" and then it becomes "this is metaphysical and important to humanity" vs "this is a random mutation." The Origin plays this up even more with Zeon Deikun being all "I AM JESUS 2.0!" ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 18:03
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TNG posted:It's interesting, since by the time most Gundam stories have taken place, a lot of humanity has adapted to living ,and are thriving, in space. Being "Newtypes", ie people adapted to living in space, really doesn't relieve the human condition, but it certainly makes sense why Char thinks it will be good for humanity. On the other hand, UC spacenoids didn't choose to live in space either, since the Federation more or less forcefully relocated 80% of the population to O'Neill cylinders and only the rich are still allowed on Earth (even if Unicorn retconned it into the Fed civilians being initially in favour of the relocation). Also, by the time CCA rolls around, it's not that clear any more whether Char wants to drop his asteroid for political reasons (force the Fed government into space to make it in their interest to stop loving over the colonies), ecological (reset the Earth with a nuclear winter/new ice age, let a new ecosystem develop over the millennia) or mystical (~newtypes~). Full Frontal has all of Char's memories IIRC and his plan is purely political/economic so 
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Aug 4, 2015 18:42
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ImpAtom posted:The last time anyone saw Char he was having everyone slaughtered around him and had explicitly abandoned them and left his mobile suit behind, and Bright says that he suspects Char is on the sidelines waiting for the right moment to return to the spotlight. If people only remember "the last time we saw Char he was a good guy" they're forgetting the context of that. That is entirely true, and I'm never going to disagree with the fact that the events of Zeta lead to Char's characterization in CCA. I mean I've read like a thousand explanations of how it all works... which is the problem. The vast majority of reaction threads to CCA remain to this day "*somebody is confused about what happened to Char* > *somebody else has to explain*". If so many people are getting confused about what should be a reasonable character arc, then unfortunately it's clearly no longer a reasonable character arc. I don't want to come off as anti-intellectualist, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that I feel like a good story should be understandable by the majority of viewers? Obviously you shouldn't go to the opposite extreme a la BF Try, but when it comes to important characters it never hurts to make sure everyone is on the same page. Especially if you're writing what is theoretically a children's show!
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Aug 4, 2015 18:44
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The Muffinlord posted:A fifty episode series of Moon Moon shenanigans. 
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Aug 4, 2015 18:46
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If the Titans had 75 secret prototype Gundams, why can't Monn Moon have some secret overgrown Gundams they worship as gods?
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Aug 4, 2015 18:48
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boom boom boom posted:If the Titans had 75 secret prototype Gundams, why can't Monn Moon have some secret overgrown Gundams they worship as gods? Because that's literally Turn A
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Aug 4, 2015 18:48
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I think Char was selling it to the masses on all three fronts, if you remember the CHAR BELIEVING song scene, as well as the earlier NEO ZEON BANZAI as they're hi-jacking Fifth Luna. Char's actual reasons are much more personal though. All the other trappings are just a part of the mask he's wearing during the movie.
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Aug 4, 2015 18:49
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BlitzBlast posted:That is entirely true, and I'm never going to disagree with the fact that the events of Zeta lead to Char's characterization in CCA. I mean I've read like a thousand explanations of how it all works... which is the problem. The vast majority of reaction threads to CCA remain to this day "*somebody is confused about what happened to Char* > *somebody else has to explain*". If so many people are getting confused about what should be a reasonable character arc, then unfortunately it's clearly no longer a reasonable character arc. Art is allowed to be more than the lowest common denominator.
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Aug 4, 2015 18:50
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I'm disappointed Sharkopath, I was expecting that witty one liner much earlier. And speaking of Sharkopath, is this the point where I bring up G-Reco? Because hahaha oh man, G-Reco was even worse about being incomprehensible to the general viewer.
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Aug 4, 2015 18:57
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You also have to take into account people who watch gundam are the most broke brained of all the idiots, discounting their problems following layered stories even more.
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Aug 4, 2015 18:58
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How am I supposed to know that kuntala are discriminated against if there isn't a scene of a mob hanging one?
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Aug 4, 2015 19:01
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Level Slide posted:How am I supposed to know that kuntala are discriminated against if there isn't a scene of a mob hanging one? Haha sometimes I still miss that thread.
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Aug 4, 2015 19:01
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BlitzBlast posted:I don't want to come off as anti-intellectualist, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that I feel like a good story should be understandable by the majority of viewers? Obviously you shouldn't go to the opposite extreme a la BF Try, but when it comes to important characters it never hurts to make sure everyone is on the same page. Especially if you're writing what is theoretically a children's show! A good majority of people do understand. The people who don't tend to be the people who view Char as a good guy and don't understand why he isn't a good guy anymore.
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Aug 4, 2015 19:02
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At this point we're both just tossing out "majority" like we've both got some data so we might as well try and clarify. I'm basing my viewpoint off of years of /m/ CCA discussion threads, a few posts in this thread (I think NikkolasKing was also confused at first?), and the fact that discussing Char's characterization shift between Zeta and CCA has become a dead horse topic because it just keeps coming up. Is there some greater fanbase I'm missing out at here?
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Aug 4, 2015 19:11
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BlitzBlast posted:I'm basing my viewpoint off of years of /m/
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Aug 4, 2015 19:12
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BlitzBlast posted:I'm basing my viewpoint off of years of /m/
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Aug 4, 2015 19:13
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The forums are always a minority, no matter how big it may seem
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Aug 4, 2015 19:15
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True enough, but when you're looking for discussion a forum is a pretty good place. And if you want me to pick an even lower hanging fruit than /m/, there's always youtube comments!
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Aug 4, 2015 19:17
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