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Jack Gladney posted:That story of them getting destroyed by the internet is pretty sad. Vulnerable closeted people role-playing the last time in history that there were socially acceptable closets to live in. And then 6 years of broadband turned them all into anime people and they were gone. A bit of a derail, but my theory is that all subcultures now tend towards homogenization because of the internet. The regionalism and isolation that fuelled a lot of the more interesting pre-internet subcultures/scenes is irrelevant, and the barrier to entry is removed. Actually, hell you see it with the Dark Enlightenment dudes, look at the crossover between them and other weird internet scenes.
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Aug 4, 2015 01:17
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Hellequin posted:A bit of a derail, but my theory is that all subcultures now tend towards homogenization because of the internet. The regionalism and isolation that fuelled a lot of the more interesting pre-internet subcultures/scenes is irrelevant, and the barrier to entry is removed. Actually, hell you see it with the Dark Enlightenment dudes, look at the crossover between them and other weird internet scenes. What do you mean by homogenization? Just that they all become enamored with the same idiot garbage? Because the internet breeds lunatic echo chambers all the time, but I can buy that they end up pretty similar in the end.
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Aug 4, 2015 01:25
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Jack Gladney posted:That story of them getting destroyed by the internet is pretty sad. Vulnerable closeted people role-playing the last time in history that there were socially acceptable closets to live in. And then 6 years of broadband turned them all into anime people and they were gone. Is there a history of this online anywhere? I've kind of pieced together an understanding (I was working up a Metafilter post on Aristasia before deciding that they were weird and harmless enough that I just wanted to leave them alone) but I've never really seen anything on the history of it that covers what happened when they got online. Vvvv Thanks! Pope Guilty has a new favorite as of 01:51 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 01:40
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Pope Guilty posted:Is there a history of this online anywhere? I've kind of pieced together an understanding (I was working up a Metafilter post on Aristasia before deciding that they were weird and harmless enough that I just wanted to leave them alone) but I've never really seen anything on the history of it that covers what happened when they got online. The Ask/Tell thread linked earlier details one poster's encounters with them on Second Life circa 2008, where they had migrated after driving out the people living in that house featured in the 1990s documentary, and by that time they had become unremarkable anime fans uninterested in the Victorian period or spankings. After that, they were gone entirely. The link goes straight to the relevant posts.
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Aug 4, 2015 01:48
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Jack Gladney posted:What do you mean by homogenization? Just that they all become enamored with the same idiot garbage? Because the internet breeds lunatic echo chambers all the time, but I can buy that they end up pretty similar in the end. All subreddits are just like one big subreddit, maaan.
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Aug 4, 2015 03:16
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God help me, I actually read this entire thread. Now all I can think is that Dave Sim would make a mint off these guys, if he didn't believe the Internet was a portal that allowed Satan into your home. Probably more sympathetic to Muslims than most of these guys, but the whole 'feminism-as-a-mass-delusion' angle & and the superiority of reverting to religiously dominated feudal states? He was pounding that drum a decade prior to GamerGate. He's also a better writer than any of the schmucks excerpted so far. Equally crazy, mind you, but the clarity of his screeds about how women are soul sucking voids who shouldn't be allowed to vote is much higher.
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Aug 4, 2015 03:56
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http://www.nexusmods.com/darksouls/mods/656/
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Aug 4, 2015 04:09
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Pope Guilty, if you don't make a MetaFilter post about then, then I wil... 
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Aug 4, 2015 12:52
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As I just noted on the HPMOR thread: See this summary from Christopher Hallquist of Yudkowsky's explicitly anti-scientific stance, and Scott's blustering reply. Let none call Scott's reply utterly mindkilled or "my ingroup is good no matter what, you filthy apostate." Both of these guys actually studied philosophy; one uses it.
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Aug 4, 2015 14:29
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FWIW here's a blog series by a few machine learners making fun of AI takeover worries: http://fastml.com/what-you-wanted-to-know-about-ai/ I think they haven't even heard of the Basilisk. (On the other hand, it seems their Kaggle best is an 8th place, so maybe these people simply aren't good enough!)
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Aug 4, 2015 14:47
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This article linked from it is really great at showing some of the pitfalls AIs fall into: http://sodeepdude.blogspot.it/2015/03/deepminds-atari-paper-replicated.html One of the thing I find interesting is how in basically all examples the neural network has real problems identifying and avoiding loss conditions.
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Aug 4, 2015 16:01
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Munin posted:This article linked from it is really great at showing some of the pitfalls AIs fall into: I guess we need to learn even deeper
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Aug 4, 2015 16:08
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neonnoodle posted:Pope Guilty, if you don't make a MetaFilter post about then, then I wil... I decided not to because I thought they seemed harmless and I figured I'd rather not draw attention to them that they'd rather not have, but if it's no longer a thing at all, I see no reason not to, especially given that story of SL loving up their scene. I don't really feel like reassembling all those links, so feel free if you like.
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Aug 4, 2015 16:53
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DStecks posted:PYF Dark Enlightenment Thinker: Less Wrong Thread 2.0 I don't see Scott throwing random jabs at feminists and minorities here!
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Aug 4, 2015 16:55
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The Vosgian Beast posted:I don't see Scott throwing random jabs at feminists and minorities here! He does note in the comments that he endorses open borders! I'm JUST ASKING QUESTIONS posted:Im actually not sure about open borders myself, but thats because Im not sure about HBD. If HBD is wrong or at least not right in ways relevant to this, then we can find ways to help immigrants assimilate (or have children who do) and we dont have to worry about the too many Afghans will make America more like Afghanistan horror story people bring up. That is, he considers the present-day state of Afghanistan being genetically determined, and the possibility of it infecting 'Murca with its corruption, a reasonable fear.
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Aug 4, 2015 17:16
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Scott doesn't understand genetics, but what's hilarious to me is that the little he does know comes from comments on his blog. Every time he reads a peer-reviewed paper that goes against his beliefs, he usually does a "but that commenter said otherwise..." thing. He doesn't try to study the basics of the field himself, and is more than content with taking something some comment said and using that to weigh research and papers (i.e. if a paper does not corroborate what his commentors say, he must be very skeptical of it.)
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Aug 4, 2015 17:23
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God forbid the barbarian hordes pollute our glorious culture- The reasonable rationality blogger
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Aug 4, 2015 17:23
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divabot posted:He does note in the comments that he endorses open borders!
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Aug 4, 2015 17:23
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Cingulate posted:I love the "horror story people bring up" line. People, in this case, would be Scott himself, who quite literally wrote such a horror story once. I was thinking that he was referring to the bullshit HBDers spew (without any evidence, of course) but what is this horror story he wrote?
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Aug 4, 2015 17:29
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Well yes the current German Fuhrer gets caught up in his rhetoric sometimes, but I'm very dismayed at how many people are too mind killed by politics to take seriously his warnings about the very probably real threat of Judeo-Bolshevism. I am very disappointed at the crude caricatures on display about the National Socialist Party. -1930s Scott Alexander
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Aug 4, 2015 17:29
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Merdifex posted:I was thinking that he was referring to the bullshit HBDers spew (without any evidence, of course) but what is this horror story he wrote? crtl-f "On Second Thought, Keep Your Tired And Poor To Yourself" Also http://popehat.com/2013/12/16/here-versus-there-public-policy-implications/
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Aug 4, 2015 18:00
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Actual 1930s fascists got into power on the backs of people who were exactly like that.
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Aug 4, 2015 18:02
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Woolie Wool posted:Actual 1930s fascists got into power on the backs of people who were exactly like that. He's Charles Lindbergh, basically
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Aug 4, 2015 18:06
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I still don't get why people say he's smart. He seems like a bright high-school kid who assumes that anyone who doesn't like him is jealous of his natural superiority. How does a turd like that make it through grad school? He's an economist, right?
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Aug 4, 2015 18:18
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Jack Gladney posted:I still don't get why people say he's smart. He seems like a bright high-school kid who assumes that anyone who doesn't like him is jealous of his natural superiority. Maybe, economists are exactly like weather guessers in that they can be wrong 100% of the time and still keep their jobs. Just look at Alan Greenspan. 
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Aug 4, 2015 18:35
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Jack Gladney posted:I still don't get why people say he's smart. He seems like a bright high-school kid who assumes that anyone who doesn't like him is jealous of his natural superiority. Scott? He's a doctor, specifically a psychiatrist. He is extremely careful with his statements within his field, and his opinions outside his field are not actually unusually horrible for doctors, awful as that is to realise. Cingulate posted:http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/03/03/reactionary-philosophy-in-an-enormous-planet-sized-nutshell/ To be fair, this is Scott attempting to fairly render the opinions of neoreactionaries. And this is a neoreactionary. Whoops, he says he's just interested in the ideas! Sorry!
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Aug 4, 2015 19:09
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The best part of that story is how in his attempt to concoct a story around "Well let's see how YOU like it when Republicans truck in immigrants to vote for them", he shoots himself in the foot by admitting that racism and monarchism prohibits scientific development and would freeze humanity in the 1890's at best.
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Aug 4, 2015 19:44
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divabot posted:To be fair, this is Scott attempting to fairly render the opinions of neoreactionaries.
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Aug 4, 2015 21:54
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DarklyDreaming posted:The best part of that story is how in his attempt to concoct a story around "Well let's see how YOU like it when Republicans truck in immigrants to vote for them", he shoots himself in the foot by admitting that racism and monarchism prohibits scientific development and would freeze humanity in the 1890's at best. No, the best part is the comment section, in which he and a few other commenters engage in Olympic-medal-worthy mental gymnastics to argue that there's some immutable law of nature making immigrants vote Democrat, as it's totally not the Republicans' fault for tripling down on nativism and xenophobia in order to pander to their base.
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Aug 4, 2015 22:00
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Dangit Ronpaul posted:No, the best part is the comment section, in which he and a few other commenters engage in Olympic-medal-worthy mental gymnastics to argue that there's some immutable law of nature making immigrants vote Democrat, as it's totally not the Republicans' fault for tripling down on nativism and xenophobia in order to pander to their base. The Sailer Strategy, named after frequent SSC commenter Steve Sailer
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Aug 4, 2015 22:10
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Steve Sailer is incredibly prolific. Where does he get all this energy from? He comments on every blog, including liberal bastion Andrew Gelman's! Is hatred of blacks such good fuel?
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Aug 4, 2015 22:25
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One thing to keep in mind about people like Scott Alexander is that "apoliticality" or the "mind-killer" nonsense is itself a political position, namely a reactionary one. "Apolitical" people are members of the in-group, comfortable in their privilege to ignore the problems of those less fortunate, or people in the oppressed class who, under immense pressure by their dominators, adopt reactionary ideas and self-victimize to ingratiate themselves with the oppressors and avoid being crushed. Scott Alexander is a "moderate" establishment conservative who, feeling his position on the totem pole threatened by the anger and activism of the oppressed below him, sees fascists as a bulwark to protect his own comfortable lifestyle. It is a devil's bargain because the fascists will inevitably sideline the conservatives if they get in power, and eliminate any who cause too much trouble, but conservatives, despite their reputation, are imprudent and short-sighted (as pointed out by political scientist Corey Robin) and will make this bargain every time. Which is not to say he might not have a touch of fash himself. People from the middle and upper middle classes who are normally "compassionate" conservatives can become fascist sympathizers or outright fascists very quickly if they feel encroached upon by "those people". EDIT: Earlier today, I posted this in the D&D version of this thread and it was ignored: Woolie Wool posted:What would be the status of artists in Neoreactionopia? These people seem to have a particular disregard for culture (a certain Göring quote comes to mind), even for our society that seems to go out of its way to be cruel to creative people every chance it gets. Perhaps I didn't put enough  into it, so I'll elaborate.Neoreaction/Dork Enlightenment and their cousins over at LessWrong and satellites hate and fear culture. Certainly, they like their commodified pop culture, but more for its signifiers than for its content--many, perhaps the majority of these works have themes and messages that run directly against the sort of thought that underpins these movements. Of course, most obviously and inescapably, Eliezer Yudkowsky's nerd fanfic opus pretty much negates every premise, every theme, every moral of the actual Harry Potter book series, which features an antagonist whose name is French for "flight from death", whose all-consuming lust for immortal life has destroyed his ability to understand or experience even the slightest joy or human attachment. His followers believe in the inherent superiority of a group of people with natural, inherited gifts, even though the actual events of the story show that these people are in character no better, and frequently worse, than "Muggles" without these gifts. He is ultimately defeated by someone who has the natural talent but was raised by those who do not, and successfully integrates the his magical and Muggle sides into a mature identity, accepts his own mortality, and is willing to fight and die even for--especially for--the Muggles that according to Voldemort, he should see himself as innately superior to. Among these sorts of people (and, I suspect, by other fascist-minded movements of the past), culture and art are reduced to signifiers and bits of "cool" that they attach to themselves. Their own attempts at creating art end up as propagandistic self-promotion and/or fetishistic self-indulgence (see: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality). Art that cannot be put through this reductive process and left recognizable becomes the tools of the Enemy, a vehicle through which the Cathedral intends to infect virile Neoreactionary rationality with emotions and postmodernism and liberalism and nasty icky girly ~feelings~ because their cargo-cult rationality is so unimaginative and narrow that it leaves them unable to comprehend what it actually is, what it actually means, or why someone might actually like it. It's kind of a tacit admission of the limits and weaknesses of their "rationality"--it falls apart if it tries to seriously examine culture, philosophy, or anything else that isn't some combination of data and facts. These all get shoved under the banner of the Cathedral, a massive part of the human experience that is now totally off-limits lest it infect you with its insidious mind viruses. It also means that their society would be, in my estimation, hellishly culturally sterile, endlessly recycling old signifiers without meaning in self-indulgent, flatulent spectacles created for the glorification of Neoreaction (see for comparison what happened to art, culture, and music under 1930s fascism). Artists, as inherently mysterious and threatening forces beyond the ken of the Neoreactionary nerd-kings, would be ruthlessly controlled and eliminated if they do anything the rulers feel threatened, insulted, or confused by. The masters of this realm would dream of their transhuman dreams coming to fruition so they can finally excise this troublesome culture from the human animal and we can exist as perfect Woolie Wool has a new favorite as of 00:14 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 22:32
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Woolie Wool posted:Neoreaction/Dork Enlightenment and their cousins over at LessWrong and satellites hate and fear culture. Certainly, they like their commodified pop culture, but more for its signifiers than for its content--many, perhaps the majority of these works have themes and messages that run directly against the sort of thought that underpins these movements. Of course, most obviously and inescapably, Eliezer Yudkowsky's nerd fanfic opus pretty much negates every premise, every theme, every moral of the actual Harry Potter book series, which features an antagonist whose name is French for "flight from death", whose all-consuming lust for immortal life has destroyed his ability to understand or experience even the slightest joy or human attachment. His followers believe in the inherent superiority of a group of people with natural, inherited gifts, even though the actual events of the story show that these people are in character no better, and frequently worse, than "Muggles" without these gifts. He is ultimately defeated by someone who has the natural talent but was raised by those who do not, and successfully integrates the his magical and Muggle sides into a mature identity, accepts his own mortality, and is willing to fight and die even for--especially for--the Muggles that according to Voldemort, he should see himself as innately superior to. Haven't read HPMoR, but that sounds like criticizing the themes of the original book, not ignoring them.
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Aug 5, 2015 00:55
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Woolie Wool posted:Scott Alexander is a "moderate" establishment conservative who, feeling his position on the totem pole threatened by the anger and activism of the oppressed below him, sees fascists as a bulwark to protect his own comfortable lifestyle.
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Aug 5, 2015 01:07
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Cingulate posted:It seems like you don't even read what he writes. Nah, that's more or less on the money. Silver2195 posted:Haven't read HPMoR, but that sounds like criticizing the themes of the original book, not ignoring them.
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Aug 5, 2015 01:18
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Woolie Wool posted:Neoreaction/Dork Enlightenment and their cousins over at LessWrong and satellites hate and fear culture. "Wenn ich Kultur höre ... entsichere ich meinen Browning!"
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Aug 5, 2015 01:42
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Dangit Ronpaul posted:No, the best part is the comment section, in which he and a few other commenters engage in Olympic-medal-worthy mental gymnastics to argue that there's some immutable law of nature making immigrants vote Democrat, as it's totally not the Republicans' fault for tripling down on nativism and xenophobia in order to pander to their base. I remember the good old days when the republicans tried to court model minorities like arabs and indians. I mean, if Erdogan can win elections, or Sisi still has a wide base of support, or Thailand still has lčse majesté, then maybe, just maybe, you can appeal to some of those migrant voters.
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Aug 5, 2015 01:43
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divabot posted:As I just noted on the HPMOR thread: See this summary from Christopher Hallquist of Yudkowsky's explicitly anti-scientific stance, and Scott's blustering reply. Let none call Scott's reply utterly mindkilled or "my ingroup is good no matter what, you filthy apostate." Both of these guys actually studied philosophy; one uses it. I just remembered that Hallquist is dating Scott Alexander's ex, and it makes the entire rebuttal even funnier.
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Aug 5, 2015 02:54
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Woolie Wool posted:One thing to keep in mind about people like Scott Alexander is that "apoliticality" or the "mind-killer" nonsense is itself a political position, namely a reactionary one. "Apolitical" people are members of the in-group, comfortable in their privilege to ignore the problems of those less fortunate, or people in the oppressed class who, under immense pressure by their dominators, adopt reactionary ideas and self-victimize to ingratiate themselves with the oppressors and avoid being crushed. Scott Alexander is a "moderate" establishment conservative who, feeling his position on the totem pole threatened by the anger and activism of the oppressed below him, sees fascists as a bulwark to protect his own comfortable lifestyle. It is a devil's bargain because the fascists will inevitably sideline the conservatives if they get in power, and eliminate any who cause too much trouble, but conservatives, despite their reputation, are imprudent and short-sighted (as pointed out by political scientist Corey Robin) and will make this bargain every time. BRB stealing this to run past my GM as the backdrop for a black crusade campaign.
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Aug 5, 2015 03:40
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What about the original Futurists?Hellequin posted:Yeah sure, I was just looking for everything I had saved. There was a derail in the "Ask me about growing up with a girl who thinks she's married to anime guys" thread, around 100 or so pages in, about this stuff. Posts are here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3444416&userid=207587 This is fascinating, and it really would make a good MetaFilte thread. Is there a place for general Silicon Valley weirdness that isn't DE? Coders getting harpoons as signing bonuses, that sort of thing? Or is that just YOSPOS? Count Chocula has a new favorite as of 04:34 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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