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ImpAtom posted:That assumes that you go through a floor meaningfully once (which isn't how EO works). Also it still means that you have absolute safety when backtracking or in other situations where you're not advancing into new areas. Yeah come to think of it you're right, if the game is about conservation it's hard to make arguments for not having random battles since they can all be countered by "well that's what the game is about you just don't get it." It's true that I don't get it -- I don't get how EO games are any better than mediocre.
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Aug 4, 2015 21:07
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Heavy neutrino posted:Yeah come to think of it you're right, if the game is about conservation it's hard to make arguments for not having random battles since they can all be countered by "well that's what the game is about you just don't get it." Well, you didn't actually explain how your way is better. How are invisible encounters at fixed locations that you can't see or prepare for better than random encounters? I'm really not sure why you're insisting this way is superior except Random = Bad.
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Aug 4, 2015 21:08
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EO does a perfectly fine job of telling you when an encounter is likely to happen anyway.
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Aug 4, 2015 21:11
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Heavy neutrino posted:It's true that I don't get it -- I don't get how EO games are any better than mediocre.
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Aug 4, 2015 21:13
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not liking a game, doesn't mean it has bad game design. goons are really bad about this.
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Aug 4, 2015 21:14
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ImpAtom posted:Well, you didn't actually explain how your way is better. Nah you're right; in a game where the battles are there in order to drain resources, the usual reasons for ditching random battles (or any kind of semi-trivial, forced encounter) disappear. I just don't like it at all. I don't like it from the viewpoint of personal taste, which leads me to interpret it as a cynical justification for wasting the player's time with boring rear end encounters.
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Aug 4, 2015 21:14
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Stop being drat defensive and admit and move on, you child Speaking of which, the ps4 version of FFX/X2 remaster is going to patch the issue that battles aren't random
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Aug 4, 2015 21:15
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Cake Attack posted:Nah at least for EO I'll defend random encounters as the better system, at least next to the usual alternatives like visible enemies you bump into good first person dungeon crawlers put the encounters on set tiles
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Aug 4, 2015 21:15
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Heavy neutrino posted:Yeah come to think of it you're right, if the game is about conservation it's hard to make arguments for not having random battles since they can all be countered by "well that's what the game is about you just don't get it." I don't really get the hate for random encounters myself since I like to be rewarded for my character builds by actually using them more than 10 times, but I can appreciate the people who just want to boss fight and get a game over with. I want at least a passable amount of filler in my games to have fun with my creations and enjoy the music. [e]That said I still don't like the direction the new EOs have gone by having their stories. Does anyone know if classic mode in EO2U also uses imports from the story mode to unlock the extra classes? I hate grimoires too but I've been told repeatedly the grimoires can largely be ignored and are for spergs.
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Aug 4, 2015 21:15
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Heavy neutrino posted:Nah you're right; in a game where the battles are there in order to drain resources, the usual reasons for ditching random battles (or any kind of semi-trivial, forced encounter) disappear. I just don't like it at all. I don't like it from the viewpoint of personal taste, which leads me to interpret it as a cynical justification for wasting the player's time with boring rear end encounters. If you don't like Etrian Odyssey, that's totally fair. It's an intentional throwback and its type of gameplay isn't going to appeal to everyone. But acting like that makes it objectively bad, or that the game designers are cynical shovelware producers, is loving dense.
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Aug 4, 2015 21:16
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saga frontier 2 is good regardless
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Aug 4, 2015 21:18
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Rascyc posted:Their character customization is superior to anything on the market. Their dungeon design isn't offensive (it hasn't been THE BEST either but it's not offensive like other crawlers). The art is typically charming. The music is typically great. Yeah; I like the customization aspects although (speaking about EO4) the classes could use a bit more variance within themselves, and the music is definitely great. I'm just not enchanted at all by the idea of having a lot of cool tools that I'm better off not using for 90% of the fights I get into out of concern for conservation, I feel that the pace is too slow, and the not-FOE, not-boss encounters aren't any fun to me as they're just strong enough that you can't auto-battle through them without taking serious damage, but not strong enough to actually be any sort of challenge. Tae posted:Stop being drat defensive and admit and move on, you child yeah it's not like i admitted i was wrong twice or anything brilliant burn
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Aug 4, 2015 21:23
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Resource conservation is fun. It adds an extra layer to deciding what moves you use in combat and what items you take advantage of. You can balance moves by having high costs or low costs to vary the potential builds and capabilities of characters. It adds tension to the game by forcing you to balance between going into a fight weaker than you could be or having to retreat and recover ground you already did. A lot of games don't actually allow you to take on threats at anything less than 100% power which is sometimes disappointing. Not every game needs to have it but if you don't have resource conservation you need to come up with other mechanics to encourage players not to just spam the strongest attack there is. Different combat systems have different kinds of encouragement but it isn't inherently inferior or superior. It depends on the kind of game you're trying to make. Heavy neutrino posted:I'm just not enchanted at all by the idea of having a lot of cool tools that I'm better off not using for 90% of the fights I get into out of concern for conservation, You really shouldn't be holding back that much. EO is designed with the assumption you'll use resources but advance far enough to find a new shortcut and them retreat and continue forward. You shouldn't be afraid to use what you have.
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Aug 4, 2015 21:24
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corn in the bible posted:saga frontier 2 is good regardless I am increasingly looking forward to this game. And I may be playing it earlier than originally intended, unless I'm blind. Is Musashi not on PSN? I could have sworn it was.
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Aug 4, 2015 21:24
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Rascyc posted:[e]That said I still don't like the direction the new EOs have gone by having their stories. Does anyone know if classic mode in EO2U also uses imports from the story mode to unlock the extra classes? I hate grimoires too but I've been told repeatedly the grimoires can largely be ignored and are for spergs.
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Aug 4, 2015 21:26
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MockingQuantum posted:I am increasingly looking forward to this game. And I may be playing it earlier than originally intended, unless I'm blind. Is Musashi not on PSN? I could have sworn it was. Saga Frontier 2 is very good. Play it. I don't think Musashi is on the US PSN, no.
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Aug 4, 2015 21:26
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ImpAtom posted:You really shouldn't be holding back that much. EO is designed with the assumption you'll use resources but advance far enough to find a new shortcut and them retreat and continue forward. You shouldn't be afraid to use what you have. theshim posted:EO2U removed that bullshit (though the Original Character Do Not Steal is story only), and made Grimoires much less godawful. [e] Oh the class is DLC? Hah. Rascyc fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 21:27
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Tae posted:Speaking of which, the ps4 version of FFX/X2 remaster is going to patch the issue that battles aren't random Also the music won't restart after every battle. Which is nice because they could have easily ignored both issues and moved on.
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Aug 4, 2015 21:31
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Rascyc posted:Is that the Highlander Fafnir stuff? His art is so doofy that I am not sure I care then. I'll probably pick this up and just do classic mode and ignore story.
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Aug 4, 2015 21:35
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A question on the SaGa Frontier games: clearly 2 is the preferred game among people in this forum, but if I want to play both, am I better off starting with Saga 1? I know there's not really any story continuity, but would it be hard to go back to 1 after I've finished 2 in terms of the game's obtuse mechanics?
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Aug 4, 2015 21:43
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MockingQuantum posted:A question on the SaGa Frontier games: clearly 2 is the preferred game among people in this forum, but if I want to play both, am I better off starting with Saga 1? I know there's not really any story continuity, but would it be hard to go back to 1 after I've finished 2 in terms of the game's obtuse mechanics? No, I don't really think so. The UI isn't as polished in SF1 but mechanically they are very similar, the only real difference is how each tells its story.
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Aug 4, 2015 21:44
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ImpAtom posted:Resource conservation is fun. It adds an extra layer to deciding what moves you use in combat and what items you take advantage of. You can balance moves by having high costs or low costs to vary the potential builds and capabilities of characters. It adds tension to the game by forcing you to balance between going into a fight weaker than you could be or having to retreat and recover ground you already did. A lot of games don't actually allow you to take on threats at anything less than 100% power which is sometimes disappointing. Agree to disagree. Resource conservation forces encounter design into the unhappy middle I mentioned earlier where encounters can't be easy to the point where they drain nothing, but also can't be a serious challenge on account that the player isn't necessarily at full strength, and that it would be unreasonable for one random encounter to siphon away too much. As for your second paragraph: of course actions need to be balanced in some way or other (I suggested better ways earlier), but we should look at ways to balance them that don't force you into a design hole. What I'm learning here is that Etrian Odyssey encounters are fun for reasons completely unrelated to Etrian Odyssey encounters -- they're fun because of situations that happen before them and situations that happen after them. This is in contrast to FOEs and bosses -- actually well-developed encounters -- that are fun for their own sakes. That said, this argument places resource conservation as a means of balance, not a thing that is fun in itself. I agree with this perspective but that's not what I've been hearing.
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Aug 4, 2015 21:46
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MockingQuantum posted:A question on the SaGa Frontier games: clearly 2 is the preferred game among people in this forum, but if I want to play both, am I better off starting with Saga 1? I know there's not really any story continuity, but would it be hard to go back to 1 after I've finished 2 in terms of the game's obtuse mechanics? Personally I can't stand SF1 myself. It's a little too much of a prototype to me whereas the SNES Romancing Saga games felt a little more like complete games.
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Aug 4, 2015 22:21
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MockingQuantum posted:A question on the SaGa Frontier games: clearly 2 is the preferred game among people in this forum, but if I want to play both, am I better off starting with Saga 1? I know there's not really any story continuity, but would it be hard to go back to 1 after I've finished 2 in terms of the game's obtuse mechanics? apart from the one-on-one dueling, i don't think 2 has any major additions to 1's gameplay. there's the strategic battles, of course, but those are different. the only real problem with sf2 is that you can't really improve your characters in the final areas or buy new supplies, and you also can't leave if you get there and realize your characters are too weak. just make sure you have a save from before you start the final scenarios (the ones in 1306) if you're worried about it.
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Aug 4, 2015 22:24
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Rascyc posted:Nah you'll be fine. SF2 actually has a narrative that pushes you along whereas SF1 just leaves you mostly to your own devices like a traditional saga game. The core saga mechanics are pretty much the same. On that note, which of the SNES Romancing Saga games are actually fully translated and playable? Is 3 the only translation patch that's in a completed state?
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Aug 4, 2015 22:26
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I actually liked FFVIII. It was an interesting battle system where they actually punish you for grinding. Of course it's pretty easy to break the poo poo out of that early on, but overall I thought it was pretty good. Storywise I can't say it's worse then most of FF, it's certainly workable. All in all, it's a good FF game, just don't grind. FFIX and Xenogears are great on the other hand, I'd start them from the PSX list as a no brainer. SO2 is good as well. Haven't played any Saga Frontier games, guess I should at least add them to my Amazon's Classic Games wishlist. I also picked up EOU2. Between 20% off at BestBuy, some credit there and fear of losing "free" DLC plus some collectible gimmicks it took me over the line. I haven't played EOU1 so figured why the hell not. Oh, and yeah, grabbed Compile Hearts game, $15 is low enough.
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Aug 4, 2015 22:28
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MockingQuantum posted:On that note, which of the SNES Romancing Saga games are actually fully translated and playable? Is 3 the only translation patch that's in a completed state? 1 is also translated, but the ps2 remake is so much better that it's not really worth it
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Aug 4, 2015 22:29
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MockingQuantum posted:On that note, which of the SNES Romancing Saga games are actually fully translated and playable? Is 3 the only translation patch that's in a completed state? Romancing Saga 1 was recently translated. http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,18590.0.html
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Aug 4, 2015 22:31
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How do you edit combos in Fairy Fencer? I purchased like 3 each per character, but I can't edit it (pressed all the buttons).
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Aug 4, 2015 22:49
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How is Star Ocean 1, specifically the psp remake? I love Star ocean 2 but I never actually played the first game.
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Aug 4, 2015 22:54
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Contest Winner posted:How is Star Ocean 1, specifically the psp remake? I love Star ocean 2 but I never actually played the first game. its okay, though the psp remake adds a 3 hit combo for normal attacks that makes arts completely useless.
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Aug 4, 2015 23:03
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Tae posted:How do you edit combos in Fairy Fencer? I purchased like 3 each per character, but I can't edit it (pressed all the buttons).
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Aug 4, 2015 23:12
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Contest Winner posted:How is Star Ocean 1, specifically the psp remake? I love Star ocean 2 but I never actually played the first game. It has its charm. Its a fun SNES RPG, nothing particularly special, but it is nice that there's the Sci-Fi twist in it. If I'm being honest, I can't remember anything that makes it all that memorable. At least that Tales of Game had the "Fucks like a tiger" thing going for it.
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Aug 4, 2015 23:15
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HGH posted:Are you using a controller? You might have to mess with D-pad controls. What does that mean? Did people on the PS3 use something different? Regardless, I have pressed literally every button and all I get is an error sound.
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Aug 4, 2015 23:24
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Contest Winner posted:How is Star Ocean 1, specifically the psp remake? I love Star ocean 2 but I never actually played the first game. it's a Tales game in all but name. the scifi is even less in evidence than it was in so2
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Aug 4, 2015 23:27
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Tae posted:What does that mean? Did people on the PS3 use something different? People have reported that some controllers on the new PC version have input issues and the resolution is remapping certain keys. I haven't heard of your exact issue, it's mostly the "next page" button acting like it's constantly depressed until remapped.
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Aug 4, 2015 23:28
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hubris.height posted:It has its charm. Its a fun SNES RPG, nothing particularly special, but it is nice that there's the Sci-Fi twist in it. If I'm being honest, I can't remember anything that makes it all that memorable. At least that Tales of Game had the "Fucks like a tiger" thing going for it. Oh DeJap, sometimes I miss your... idiosyncratic localization decisions.
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Aug 4, 2015 23:47
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hubris.height posted:It has its charm. Its a fun SNES RPG, nothing particularly special, but it is nice that there's the Sci-Fi twist in it. If I'm being honest, I can't remember anything that makes it all that memorable. At least that Tales of Game had the "Fucks like a tiger" thing going for it. Star Ocean was actually pretty remarkable for its time in a lot of ways. The real-time combat, the customizable skill system, hidden secret moves and characters, item creation, randomized talents, etc were novel at a time when almost every RPG in Japan was a clone of Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Wizardry, or some combination thereof. In the town I was living in at the time I remember people getting kind of excited about it.
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Aug 5, 2015 00:14
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Yeah, of course. I just meant that I'm having trouble recalling anything that is memorable from my first and only playthrough of it roughly a decade ago. Star Ocean is a great franchise, and Star Ocean 1 was a fun game. Definitely play it.
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Aug 5, 2015 00:56
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Okay now I'm reading that combos are story progression based or something?  Because what it looks like (Just beat the lava dungeon) and I press all the buttons on my xbox controller, USB controller, and keyboard. I HAVE to assume it's story-blocked at this point, right?
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Aug 5, 2015 00:58
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