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TheImmigrant posted:And every one of Israel's neighbors has attacked it. I agree that Israeli public opinion and politics are shifting hard to the right, but as you note, these things don't happen in a vacuum. Israel has also attacked all of its neighbors (some of them more then vice versa) and held the Palestinians under a brutal colonialist regime for the last two generations at the least so...even stevens?
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Aug 4, 2015 20:57
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suboptimal posted:Meir Kahane's grandson arrested for planning on carrying out a bunch of attacks so as to collapse the state and rebuild it in the extreme right-wing nationalist vision. quote:"The idea of the revolt is very simple," continued Ettinger. "Israel has many 'weak points', subjects people tiptoe around so as not to cause riots. What we will do is simply 'spark' all these powder kegs, all the questions and the contradictions between Judaism and democracy. Between the Jewish character and the secular character, without fearing the results. Disturbing the ability to rule the country. That's the main part of the revolt's 'vort' (word) to break the rules and the entire status quo." Uh-oh. Saying that he intended to "collapse the state" is, I think, failing to recognize the full danger he and his organization pose. What he really intends to do is spark a civil war, using terrorism to aggravate the demographic clashes and political contradictions deeply rooted in modern Israel and destabilize the delicate balancing acts the state uses to hold all those disparate groups and concepts together.
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Aug 4, 2015 21:46
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Main Paineframe posted:Uh-oh. Saying that he intended to "collapse the state" is, I think, failing to recognize the full danger he and his organization pose. What he really intends to do is spark a civil war, using terrorism to aggravate the demographic clashes and political contradictions deeply rooted in modern Israel and destabilize the delicate balancing acts the state uses to hold all those disparate groups and concepts together. Seemed like he almost wanted to do a Kahanist Turners Diaries.
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Aug 4, 2015 22:22
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Always go to Arutz Sheva for your unhinged commentary. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/199037#.VcExZpNVhHw quote:Attorney Yuval Zamar of the Honenu legal aid organization, who is representing Ettinger, said Tuesday that the young activist is being subjected to violent abuse in interrogations. quote:Former MK Dr. Michael Ben-Ari, head of the Otzma Yehudit party, said the government lost its sanity as shown in its pursuit of Ettinger, who he said has been under constant surveillance undermining claims that he established some sort of "underground organization." Oh wait, that's the story itself. Surely the comments can't be that bad quote:They KNOW, that the arson in Duma was a criminal dispute amoungh Arab clans, but the Israeli Government continues to fram and arrest Jews. quote:Lets see, if we torture him enough he will make up any story to stop the torture-just like Iran, Iraq and Syria. The government, with Ya'alon and Netanyahu, are so desperate to blame some Jew they will find one even if he didnt do it. quote:Jews of Israel are under tyranny from the government of Israel! Fight Back! oh, ok then
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Aug 4, 2015 22:44
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Crowsbeak posted:Seemed like he almost wanted to do a Kahanist Turners Diaries. Kahanists (led by Ettinger) have been trying to establish a Jewish theocracy in the West Bank since the '90s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Judea http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/16998#.VcE0TJNVhHw (Ettinger in his own words) Lum_ fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 22:52
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Lum_ posted:Kahanists (led by Ettinger) have been trying to establish a Jewish theocracy in the West Bank since the '90s. Dunno if this has been posted here before, but this is a fascinating, if a little old (from 2011), article about settler girls in Tapuach.
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Aug 4, 2015 23:33
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suboptimal posted:Meir Kahane's grandson arrested for planning on carrying out a bunch of attacks so as to collapse the state and rebuild it in the extreme right-wing nationalist vision. Let this be a warning to the fools who think accelerationism is going to result in anything other than a pile of human corpses and the permanent end of Palestinian nationalism. Technically he and Islamic militants have a point though in that despite being a piece of poo poo, they still do have rights under the law. At least the security forces are equal opportunity abusers.
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Aug 5, 2015 02:56
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Lum_ posted:Kahanists (led by Ettinger) have been trying to establish a Jewish theocracy in the West Bank since the '90s. Yea I thought it was well known for people who follow Israel stuff, Kahanists are loving lunatics who have been pro straight up theocratic dictatorship for ages now.
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Aug 5, 2015 04:19
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TheImmigrant posted:And every one of Israel's neighbors has attacked it. I agree that Israeli public opinion and politics are shifting hard to the right, but as you note, these things don't happen in a vacuum. Because Israel has, from the first government coalition since ben-gurion's tenure, opted for an expansionist, aggressive approach coupled with a reflexive rejection of peace overtures designed to rob the justification of israeli land grabs which themselves were spun both in domestic and foreign allied state's media as a war of defense. So far, israel has only signed peace deals with jordan, syria and egypt; lebanon and israel are still technically in a state of war with eachother. Note I'm not trying to claim here the idiot notion that every major ill in the modern middle east is a direct result of israel's actions or the very fact of it's existence. I'm saying the historic record proves how unjustified its military misadventures have been, and the leaders of arab states have, in the face of consistent provocation, in the case of egypt, or outright invasion and occupation, in lebanon's case, have taken a more than justified stance of being extremely mistrustful of israel's intentions in their country's futures. Ultramega fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 04:36
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Has this been posted yet http://www.onionstudios.com/videos/onion-explains-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict-3063
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Aug 5, 2015 06:42
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Ultramega posted:Because Israel has, from the first government coalition since ben-gurion's tenure, opted for an expansionist, aggressive approach coupled with a reflexive rejection of peace overtures designed to rob the justification of israeli land grabs which themselves were spun both in domestic and foreign allied state's media as a war of defense. So far, israel has only signed peace deals with jordan, syria and egypt; lebanon and israel are still technically in a state of war with eachother. Note I'm not trying to claim here the idiot notion that every major ill in the modern middle east is a direct result of israel's actions or the very fact of it's existence. I'm saying the historic record proves how unjustified its military misadventures have been, and the leaders of arab states have, in the face of consistent provocation, in the case of egypt, or outright invasion and occupation, in lebanon's case, have taken a more than justified stance of being extremely mistrustful of israel's intentions in their country's futures. Israel withdrew from Lebanon 15 years ago. Hezbollah have rejected all piece overtures using flimsy nonsense as an excuse. There's clearly meaningful distinction between Israel's defensive wars and the Lebanon campaign for instance. Your statement was also unequivocally false under Labor in the 90s.
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Aug 5, 2015 13:40
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A major industry has now set itself against the religious radicals. To be specific, the Israel Tour Guide Association will no longer tolerate the disruptive activities of radical haredi, who generally believe that important Abrahamic holy sites like David's Tomb (supposedly the site of the Last Supper) are solely Jewish sites and have been acting to prevent Christians from visiting them. Tour guides complain that entire tour groups have been chased off by large groups of angry, shouting haredi, who block the paths with their numbers and sometimes push and shove tourists away while screaming at them. This behavior has been going on for some time, and made the news earlier this year when haredi protestors mobilized to disrupt Christian visitors during the two days per year that Christians are allowed to pray there by Israeli authorities.quote:This wasn't the first protest at the Mount Zion compound. Last week and on Sunday, dozens of Jewish protesters also attempted to block Christian prayer there for the holiday of Pentecost and were forcibly removed. One of the people behind the protest, Prof. Hillel Weiss, was detained Sunday.
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Aug 5, 2015 15:12
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Kim Jong Il posted:Israel withdrew from Lebanon 15 years ago. Hezbollah have rejected all piece overtures using flimsy nonsense as an excuse. There's clearly meaningful distinction between Israel's defensive wars and the Lebanon campaign for instance. Your statement was also unequivocally false under Labor in the 90s. He's talking about within Israel and Palestine methinks.
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Aug 5, 2015 15:13
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I hate the idea that we can't all share in the site. What difference does it make if I pray there?
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Aug 5, 2015 18:52
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Mandy Thompson posted:I hate the idea that we can't all share in the site. What difference does it make if I pray there? Because they feel it should be a Jew only holy site. They've also started arresting Muslims who try to go there to pray.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:56
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CommieGIR posted:Because they feel it should be a Jew only holy site. They've also started arresting Muslims who try to go there to pray. Who is 'they'? The Haredim have no authority to arrest anyone. I ran a Google search and found a story about this on Ynetnews, FWIW. There was another story on Ha'aretz but it was behind a paywall. EDIT: It's time to play another round of GOOD TALKBACK, BAD TALKBACK! Andreas Grefen posted:May I suggest inter-religious co-existence and mutual respect? Why denouncing the other side as "pagans" or "radicals"? Deborah Haya posted:As usual Ynet is framing events in a biased manner. The room which Xians "revere" as the location of the Last Supper is above the room where Jews have prayed at Kever David for at least 1,000 years. The Jews only protested because since this evil ruling regime gave the entire complex to the Pope as a gift a year ago, the Catholics have been coming more and more i to the traditionally Jewish area. This time, they brought incense and crucifixes with them. Once they have consecrated it to X, Jews, by halachah, will no longer be able to enter there at all. Kever David will have been turned into a church and this is their aim. The government knows it, too. It's part of a calculated plan to distance Jews more and more from the Old City as it is clearly slated by the international community to become the capital of Palestine. It's a done deal. It only waits for the formal announcement. The public is always the last to know Triple Elation fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 21:15
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Mandy Thompson posted:I hate the idea that we can't all share in the site. What difference does it make if I pray there? It's an incredibly holy site in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - so holy, in fact, that the slightest misstep could be seen as desecrating it - and there's a lot of paranoia about it. Sharing is fine, but radicals on every side can't help but suspect ulterior motive or greed on the part of the others, and I suspect that religious extremists actively seek to stir up such feelings and make up bullshit rumors about it to drive radicalism. Jewish extremists fear that every little thing is part of a diabolical plan by Christians or Muslims to steal or seize control over some or all of the Temple Mount in order to prevent Jewish visits/prayers or destroy Jewish holy sites, and Muslim extremists fear that every little thing is part of a diabolical plan by Christians or Jews to steal or seize control over some or all of the Temple Mount in order to prevent Muslim visits/prayers or destroy Muslim holy sites. I'm not well informed about Christian extremists' views on the Temple Mount, and I doubt there's many since Christianity is the underdog right now when it comes to the Temple Mount, but I imagine there's a few who harbor similar fears. Because of all that suspicion, everything from negotiations over prayer rights to basic infrastructure work has the potential for sparking protests, riots, and international investigations. You can't so much a swing a shovel on the Mount without an angry mob showing up to accuse you of somehow undermining or destroying Jewish/Muslim holy sites or engaging in a project to Islamicize/Judaicize the area. All that makes it a powder keg that even Israel doesn't dare to poke. The Temple Mount is under joint Israeli-Jordanian control, and Jewish prayer is officially discouraged there...though that's not necessarily a bad thing, since mainstream rabbinical consensus among both the Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox is that the Temple Mount is so holy that Jews shouldn't even set foot there at all, let alone pray there. There's literally signs posted reminding Jewish visitors that the Torah prohibits Jews from visiting the Temple Mount, though that doesn't stop a number of radical religious Zionist groups who disagree with that guidance.
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Aug 5, 2015 21:28
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Well, radical Zionists would know a thing or two about seizing things that don't belong to them.  I guess we could get into yet another fight over it, seems to have gone well for all parties for the past 2000 years
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Aug 5, 2015 22:02
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Kim Jong Il posted:Israel withdrew from Lebanon 15 years ago. Hezbollah have rejected all piece overtures using flimsy nonsense as an excuse. There's clearly meaningful distinction between Israel's defensive wars and the Lebanon campaign for instance. Your statement was also unequivocally false under Labor in the 90s. You mean the Lebanon campaign in 2006? Nasrallah went on the record to state the kidnapping/killing of the IDF soldiers that sparked it was a mistake in that he didn't count on the israeli military to inflict as much damage as they did on civvie centers. I would argue that was a defensive war fought by israel but they made such a shitshow of it that it's a secondary consideration given how maliciously they treated lebanese noncombatants.
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Aug 6, 2015 02:23
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In lighter news: Bennett files complaint over social media ‘incitement’ - Jewish Home leader calls in police over accusations that his ideology contributes to Jewish terrorism  (No, this is not the Onion)
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Aug 6, 2015 03:09
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Main Paineframe posted:I'm not well informed about Christian extremists' views on the Temple Mount, and I doubt there's many since Christianity is the underdog right now when it comes to the Temple Mount, but I imagine there's a few who harbor similar fears. Hey I know some of those guys! Radical Christiansts treat the Temple Mount as a summoning circle for Jesus. The mundane view is they need to flatten the dome of the Rock and let the Jews rebuild the temple, as that will bring forth the end times. The wackier plan is that God would be fooled by a holographic projection of a temple on the mount, and come back when they turn it on.
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Aug 6, 2015 05:54
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I never heard the hologram thing before. I kinda love it because despite being omnipotent and all I kinda enjoy the idea of God being an old man about technology and getting swindled like that. "What, oh poo poo that was fast, how'd they build it that fast, ok get down there kid...wait a minute! OH YOU RASCALS" and then like...I think the world goes on fire? That's the end of days for them right, everyone burns but them?
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Aug 6, 2015 06:01
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I never heard the hologram thing before. I kinda love it because despite being omnipotent and all I kinda enjoy the idea of God being an old man about technology and getting swindled like that. This makes me think of how some observing jewish women will wear wigs over their actual hair in order to present as feminine and to show humility to god. It's weird to me the lengths some super religious people will go in order to retain access to modern amenities and still keep in observance of religious customs.
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Aug 6, 2015 06:38
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I read a description of ultra-Orthodox jews (and Amish oddly) as basically the world's best rules-lawyers. Small things like waiting for the fridge motor to switch on before opening the door so that the opening of the door doesn't create an electric circuit which would count as work.
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Aug 6, 2015 07:51
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Triple Elation posted:Who is 'they'? The Haredim have no authority to arrest anyone. So consecration acts as a warding circle against jews? Interesting...
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Aug 6, 2015 08:07
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MrNemo posted:I read a description of ultra-Orthodox jews (and Amish oddly) as basically the world's best rules-lawyers. Small things like waiting for the fridge motor to switch on before opening the door so that the opening of the door doesn't create an electric circuit which would count as work. To be fair, the Torah does actually encourage this sort of thing. The Jewish version of God is always up for a good argument.
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Aug 6, 2015 10:12
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Darth Walrus posted:The Jewish version of God is always up for a good argument. Well, true, but it's not going to be a fair argument. Because he's God and you're not. And God knows this perfectly well and is a total dick about it.
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Aug 6, 2015 12:32
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Darth Walrus posted:To be fair, the Torah does actually encourage this sort of thing. The Jewish version of God is always up for a good argument. There are some very funny jokes on the topic.
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Aug 6, 2015 12:52
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Triple Elation posted:Well, true, but it's not going to be a fair argument. Because he's God and you're not. And God knows this perfectly well and is a total dick about it. Nope, Jews already beat God once, and we'll do it again! http://jhom.com/topics/voice/bat_kol_bab.htm
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Aug 6, 2015 13:15
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Saed Dawabsha, the father of the toddler Ali Dawabsha, had passed on from his injuries. His wife is still in critical condition. Their other son, four year old Ahmed, has regained consciousness yesterday and according to the doctors his condition is improving and he's gonna make it through.
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Aug 8, 2015 09:20
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Jews. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 8, 2015 10:09
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Avshalom posted:Jews. No they're Palestinian
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Aug 8, 2015 16:28
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Saed Dawabsha, the father of the toddler Ali Dawabsha, had passed on from his injuries. His wife is still in critical condition. Their other son, four year old Ahmed, has regained consciousness yesterday and according to the doctors his condition is improving and he's gonna make it through. I heard intel was harassing the families relatives, is there any truth to that?
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Aug 8, 2015 21:24
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Crowsbeak posted:I heard intel was harassing the families relatives, is there any truth to that? How would I know? I read on facebook that the burnt down house has been swarming with police and intelligence officers this past week and some people labeled this amateurish conduct and harassment, I wouldn't know. I thought that the Ettinger arrest was possibly related to the arson but this is mostly conjecture due to him praising some extremist Lubawitzer rabbi and the crime scene having a lubawitzer phrase spray painted over the walls, but who knows really, I think that the Israeli police didn't find out too many clues otherwise they would have made a few more arrests by now. Edit: just as I finish writing this post ynet reports a few dozens of militant settler youth have been arrested and that Ettinger himself is going to be subjected for at least six months of administrative detention. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 08:44
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DarkCrawler posted:Israel has also attacked all of its neighbors (some of them more then vice versa) and held the Palestinians under a brutal colonialist regime for the last two generations at the least so...even stevens? I feel the need to point out that you're repeating a falsehood here, whether unwittingly or because you're pushing some sort of discredited revisionist take on on the histories of '48, '67', and '73 wars. Maybe you'll protest you're just trying to make a point, but there's no reason you can't get the facts correct while doing so. And if you can't get the facts right then your point is unlikely to be a very good one. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 10:11 on Aug 11, 2015 |
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Aug 11, 2015 10:09
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The Insect Court posted:I feel the need to point out that you're repeating a falsehood here, whether unwittingly or because you're pushing some sort of discredited revisionist take on on the histories of '48, '67', and '73 wars. Maybe you'll protest you're just trying to make a point, but there's no reason you can't get the facts correct while doing so. And if you can't get the facts right then your point is unlikely to be a very good one. Sinai War (Egypt), Six-Day War (Egypt, Lebanon, Syria) First Lebanon War (Lebanon), Second Lebanon War (Lebanon) - invasions initiated by Israel on the Arab countries. Independence War, Attrition, Yom Kippur, invasions initiated by the Arab countries on Israel. Pretty simple. Israel was certainly justified in some of the wars it started, Arabs were justified in some of the others. But the guy who starts it and first steps foot on the other's territory invades them. If you're not even aware of all the wars they have fought (much less the near total continuous state of covert actions, border violations, occupations, etc.) I wouldn't go around lecturing others, hope that is helpful 
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 10:47 on Aug 11, 2015 |
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Aug 11, 2015 10:44
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DarkCrawler posted:Sinai War (Egypt), Six-Day War (Egypt, Lebanon, Syria) First Lebanon War (Lebanon), Second Lebanon War (Lebanon) - invasions initiated by Israel on the Arab countries. On the contrary, much as the USA was the aggressor in WW2, so were Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria aggressors in the Six-Day War.
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Aug 11, 2015 16:28
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DarkCrawler posted:Sinai War (Egypt), Six-Day War (Egypt, Lebanon, Syria) First Lebanon War (Lebanon), Second Lebanon War (Lebanon) - invasions initiated by Israel on the Arab countries. This is a dumb standard, affairs between countries are rarely so black-and-white. More importantly, though, what does it matter? Even if Israel had been the innocent victim in every war it's ever been in, would that justify any aspect of its current conduct? After all, Israel won those wars, and its relative strength compared to its neighbors has only increased since then. Israel hasn't been an underdog in fifty years. To my knowledge, the only other country that claims an eternal right to abuse and bully all of their neighbors because they were invaded by a stronger country once is Russia, and just look at how popular they are. Anyway, in other news, apparently someone raised the question of the recent escalation of extremist attacks in Israel at a State Department press briefing a couple weeks ago. It's striking how much more evasive the State Department representative is than other topics, with a noncommitalness that suggests to me that the US was largely hoping to stay out of this whole "Jewish terrorism" thing and treat it much the same as it does white people terrorism in the US. quote:QUESTION: You called it a vicious terrorist attack, and in fact, in recent years you’ve included settler attacks as part of your report on terrorism – annual report on terrorism. My question: Seeing how there is an uptick now in these settler attacks against Palestinians and their property and so on and with a price tag and all that, I wonder if the Department is looking into any steps it can take to apply U.S. anti-terror laws under its purview to combat these sorts of things. Are you?
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Aug 11, 2015 17:34
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DarkCrawler posted:Sinai War (Egypt), Six-Day War (Egypt, Lebanon, Syria) First Lebanon War (Lebanon), Second Lebanon War (Lebanon) - invasions initiated by Israel on the Arab countries. You forgot about plucky Jordan
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Aug 11, 2015 22:18
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oh no someone attacked Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon! it was a Jew so nobody got arrested
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Aug 11, 2015 22:19
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