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VitalSigns posted:Um sorry, you can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt any motivations behind the use of those terms, so your complaints about anything sounding like sexism can be dismissed out of hand. I see. It's ok to be a misogynist as long as your target is on "the other side." The terms have a long term association with invalidating women. "Too sensitive" in particular is often used to silence ANY minority. I think we can all agree if someone used the term "uppity" we could infer a racial bias, no?
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Aug 5, 2015 12:49
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I think you misunderstood the point I was making AR. I was supporting your request while using it to illustrate why the standard of "ah but they never said 'I hate all X' so we can never knowwwwwww" being used by some apologists here is impossible and worthless for talking about institutionalized bigotry. E: Should add that I know from his other posting that Obdicut is not a sexist, but you still have every right to ask people not to use the same kind of language a sexist would use without having to read their minds like Miss Cleo VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 13:17
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ActusRhesus posted:I see. It's ok to be a misogynist as long as your target is on "the other side." The unconscious sexism and absurd hypervigilance to racism are a curious juxtaposition, aren't they? See something similar in my custom title, with homophobia and patronizing solicitude toward fetish groups existing side by side.
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Aug 5, 2015 13:32
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What do people here think "the system" is?
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Aug 5, 2015 13:45
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This just got posted in another D&D thread: C.S. Lewis, 'Mere Christianity': “Suppose one reads a story of filthy atrocities in the paper. Then suppose that something turns up suggesting that the story might not be quite true, or not quite so bad as it was made out. Is one's first feeling, 'Thank God, even they aren't quite so bad as that,' or is it a feeling of disappointment, and even a determination to cling to the first story for the sheer pleasure of thinking your enemies are as bad as possible? If it is the second then it is, I am afraid, the first step in a process which, if followed to the end, will make us into devils. You see, one is beginning to wish that black was a little blacker. If we give that wish its head, later on we shall wish to see grey as black, and then to see white itself as black. Finally we shall insist on seeing everything -- God and our friends and ourselves included -- as bad, and not be able to stop doing it: we shall be fixed for ever in a universe of pure hatred.”
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Aug 5, 2015 13:48
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VitalSigns posted:I think you misunderstood the point I was making AR. I don't think there was anything in your post supporting my request. If that was your intent it was not clear. Perhaps something like "yeah. Those terms have a negative association in this context. Don't use them" would have made your point better. Unless of course that wasn't in fact your initial point. The analogy fails at any rate, however, because while I don't think one can always infer racism merely because a minority was pulled over, just as I can't assume someone disagrees with me for being a woman, if the reason given was "he was acting uppity" you can probably infer racism just as I can infer sexism from words like "too sensitive" "overly emotional" "hissy fit" "flipping out" etc. all of which have been used in this thread towards me. Still not sure how words on a screen = flipping out. But whatevs. TheImmigrant posted:The unconscious sexism and absurd hypervigilance to racism are a curious juxtaposition, aren't they? See something similar in my custom title, with homophobia and patronizing solicitude toward fetish groups existing side by side. It's cute, isn't it?
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Aug 5, 2015 13:52
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Can you show some examples of "unconscious sexism and absurd hypervigilance to racism?" It seems to me that a lot of resistance to reform comes in the form of "you're being too sensitive" - and that's an argument that should be challenged. The first step towards solving this problem is getting people to understand and acknowledge it - which clearly isn't done yet. To address AR's request - that seems totally reasonable to me to ask that people avoid using hurtful terms and it would be rude to ignore that.
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Aug 5, 2015 13:53
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I should start a company that builds drones to follow you around and start filming whenever police are within 100' of you.DrNutt posted:What the hell was the context for that? Or did he seriously just take his gun out and start ordering that guy around for filming a cop and having a hand in his pocket? Agrajag posted:Power tripping pig. Evidently hand in pocket = must draw gun. What a loving joke. That's pretty normal for them to ask that your hands be visible, every interaction I've had with police they've asked if I had my hands in my pockets. It's a reasonable request. Everything else, not so much.
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Aug 5, 2015 13:57
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ActusRhesus posted:I don't think there was anything in your post supporting my request. If that was your intent it was not clear. Perhaps something like "yeah. Those terms have a negative association in this context. Don't use them" would have made your point better. Unless of course that wasn't in fact your initial point. But I don't infer racism from the fact that he pulled her over, but from his subsequent actions: getting angry when a black woman wasn't obsequious and deferent enough for him, baiting her with pointless questioning about her mood, and giving her arbitrary commands to follow to assert his dominance and put her in her place rather than ending the stop once he's written her ticket. Can you agree that it's reasonable to infer bigotry when someone is treating a black woman just like a bigot would? And sorry I thought my post was ironic enough to be clear that I wasn't actually dismissing your concern, I will do a better job representing my position in the future. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 14:01
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Also from the fact that he decided to pull her over before she actually committed the traffic violation upon which the pretextual stop was accomplished.
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Aug 5, 2015 14:05
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:Literally the best post this thread has ever had. I know right 
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Aug 5, 2015 14:06
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VitalSigns posted:But I don't infer racism from the fact that he pulled her over, but from his subsequent actions: getting angry when a black woman wasn't obsequious and deferring enough for him, baiting her with pointless as questioning about her mood, and giving get arbitrary commands to follow to assert his dominance and put her in her place rather than ending the stop once he's written her ticket. Yes. I think that is fair. The immediate hostility seemed unwarranted. While it's possible he's just an rear end in a top hat, it's also possible he's a racist bit would be interesting to see if there are complaints in his file. In general white people in higher economic spheres will call in complaints about "unprofessional" officers. The lack of any such complaints would be illuminating. Also, I can't link while phone posting but everyone really should watch the "free inhabitant " arrest. It's a great example of professionalism followed by a completely appropriate use of force. (Though honestly if he had just busted out a taser 3 minutes in I wouldn't be upset. Sovereign citizens are not really people.)
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Aug 5, 2015 14:07
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VitalSigns posted:
What are the indicia of bigotry here? I would agree that it's reasonable to infer a power-tripping cop here, but how to you make the leap to bigot? I don't automatically assume bigotry in every confrontation between white and black. What makes you think the cop isn't a dick to all civilians in similar situations? I'm a white, professional-looking guy, and cops are often rude to me. A lot of cops tend to be that way. TheImmigrant fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 14:09
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Recent local paper's article reminded me of a shooting from a few years ago around here. http://www.houstonpress.com/news/use-of-force-how-the-courts-judge-police-violence-doesnt-always-lead-to-justice-7643949 It's pretty long, but worth reading. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbie_Tolan_shooting_incident So with this one, cops entered a license plate wrong and it comes up stolen. They follow the driver back to his house and start accusing him, parents come out and explain that it's their car, backup cop shows up and shoves mother against the garage, son gets pissed and tells cop to "stop hurting his mother", cop shoots son while he's still laying on ground (bullet travels through lungs and liver). Cops are cleared of all charges and civil suit goes all the way to SCOTUS before anyone even considers that maybe the police were acting incorrectly. There's plenty more in there and they're all local to Houston. edit quote:When Albert Rodriguez took the stand to defend Blackwelder, he assured jurors it wasn’t reckless for a cop to carry a gun in his waistband, without a holster, and chase after an unknown suspect accused of an unknown crime, according to the Montgomery County Police Reporter, which covered Blackwelder’s trial last summer. Man, there's some great lines in there. Sir Tonk fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 14:13
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Sir Tonk posted:That's pretty normal for them to ask that your hands be visible, every interaction I've had with police they've asked if I had my hands in my pockets. It's a reasonable request. This isn't even a thing in my country. While it is a reasonable request, unless violence has already happened, this isn't a routine request. There is no expectation that police are going to hurt you or you to them. It's hosed up that your police handcuff people to do searches in things as routine a a traffic stop. From the very beginning of your interaction there is mistrust.
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Aug 5, 2015 14:14
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blarzgh posted:What do people here think "the system" is? The legacy and ongoing effects of unrepresentative government. Perhaps you're unaware that a significant portion of the population only effectively obtained voting rights about 50 years ago, and that minorities (and women) are still significantly underrepresented in US government at all levels? Perhaps you're unaware of research that shows that government is significantly more responsive to the interests of capital rather than democratic preferences?
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Aug 5, 2015 14:15
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Also from the fact that he decided to pull her over before she actually committed the traffic violation upon which the pretextual stop was accomplished. Yeah but the racism deniers will just say we can never know why he pulled that uturn behind her, unless he has said he was going to pull her over just cuz? TheImmigrant posted:What are the indicia of bigotry here? I would agree that it's reasonable to infer a power-tripping cop here, but how to you make the leap to bigot? I don't automatically assume bigotry in every confrontation between white and black. What makes you think the cop isn't a dick to all civilians in similar situations? I'm a white, professional-looking guy, and cops are often rude to me. A lot of cops tend to be that way. I don't assume bigotry in every confrontation, but when a white cop in a state with a huge problem of racism that still has sundown towns like Vidor starts ordering a black woman around for no reason other than to exercise power over her than it's a reasonable inference. Maybe he hates all people equally, if you've got some countervailing evidence I will revise my opinion. Ultimately it doesn't matter in this particular case because he should be fired for his unprofessionalism regardless of Bland's skin color, but we would be kidding ourselves if we tried to believe that preventing similar incidents won't require reforming the proven racial bias in US policing. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 14:16
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah but the racism deniers will just say we can never know why he pulled that uturn behind her, unless he has said he was going to pull her over just cuz? If I produced evidence to rebut your assumption of racism, it wouldn't be countervailing, as you have produced no evidence of racism to begin with. "Racism" is a noxious state of mind. If you dilute the meaning of the word to "a non-optimal outcome involving a black person," you trivialize what is a very real problem.
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Aug 5, 2015 14:28
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blarzgh posted:I still don't understand how "the system is broken" if only .00001% of stops annually result in the kinds of news stories that get posted here. I think you need to explain to the rest of the thread why you are convinced that this level is appropriate and acceptable. As someone else hinted at, if we used your number in the commercial airlines world, that would mean one crash every day in the United States alone. Do you think that's a good idea?
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Aug 5, 2015 14:40
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TheImmigrant posted:If I produced evidence to rebut your assumption of racism, it wouldn't be countervailing, as you have produced no evidence of racism to begin with. "Racism" is a noxious state of mind. If you dilute the meaning of the word to "a non-optimal outcome involving a black person," you trivialize what is a very real problem. I already described how he acted like a bigot would, your ignorance of the petty harassment and assertion of social superiority over black people by white cops especially in the south is not my problem. So unless you have something else besides "nuh-uh" and "but how can we ever knowwwwwwww whether the cop putting a black woman in her place beneath a white man is doing it because she is black" then I guess we are done here?
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Aug 5, 2015 15:02
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah but the racism deniers will just say we can never know why he pulled that uturn behind her, unless he has said he was going to pull her over just cuz? There are many reasons why a police officer will follow a car. Suspiciously high value for the area, matches the description of a previous call or reacted in a suspicious manner when they saw a cop car driving towards them etc. Given the area, it is a certainty that this police officer had driven past multiple other drivers of the same race and gender before deciding to follow Sandra Bland. You cannot in good faith state that racism, and only racism was the reason for that stop without the suspension of all forms of reason. Please note that I am not denying that the american police force is deeply racist before people ignore my post in the rush to call me a racism denier or whatever thats supposed to mean. VitalSigns posted:I already described how he acted like a bigot would, your ignorance of the petty harassment and assertion of social superiority over black people by white cops especially in the south is not my problem. So unless you have something else besides "nuh-uh" and "but how can we ever knowwwwwwww whether the cop putting a black woman in her place beneath a white man is doing it because she is black" then I guess we are done here? You are using literally the same argument to try and prove your point. Think about that.
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Aug 5, 2015 15:06
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VitalSigns posted:I already described how he acted like a bigot would, your ignorance of the petty harassment and assertion of social superiority over black people by white cops especially in the south is not my problem. So unless you have something else besides "nuh-uh" and "but how can we ever knowwwwwwww whether the cop putting a black woman in her place beneath a white man is doing it because she is black" then I guess we are done here? The white cop in a department with a long history of racial issues where the current elected sheriff was previously fired for racism and brutality, in a county that was trying to disenfranchise black voters barely a couple decades ago, didn't produce a notarized affidavit that he was being a jackass to her because of her race, so we wouldn't want to jump to any conclusions.
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Aug 5, 2015 15:11
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serious gaylord posted:There are many reasons why a police officer will follow a car. Suspiciously high value for the area, matches the description of a previous call or reacted in a suspicious manner when they saw a cop car driving towards them etc. Given the area, it is a certainty that this police officer had driven past multiple other drivers of the same race and gender before deciding to follow Sand Which is exactly why I didn't use the original stop as an example because I don't know why he did the uturn. Acting exactly like a bigot would during the stop is a pretty good reason to conclude he's likely a bigot though! I mean sure maybe he loves all black people and was having a bad day. And maybe if I walk by a guy yelling about niggers it's because he has some bizarre aphasia and means toasters instead, but until I have a reason to believe the guy who sounds just like a bigot would actually just has a language disorder I'm going to assume the former and not the latter!
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Aug 5, 2015 15:11
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VitalSigns posted:Which is exactly why I didn't use the original stop as an example because I don't know why he did the uturn. Your quote in my post was in direct response to you saying anyone that didnt think he pulled a u turn to follow her was a racist was a racism denier. Hence why I gave you multiple examples of why that might have been. I mean its right there in the post you quoted to say that to.
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Aug 5, 2015 15:15
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No that wasn't what I was saying. I was saying the people who were determined not to see racism even in a white cop from a department with a history of racism in a southern state with a problem of racism giving a black woman who wasn't obsequiousness enough pointless and harassing orders and threatening to tase and arrest her for smoking when he didn't want her to...probably aren't going to agree with WJ's suggestion that he intended to pull her over before she failed to signal. Idk, maybe read and think a bit or something before you mash post? VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 15:18
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VitalSigns posted:No that wasn't what I was saying. I was saying the people who were determined not to see racism even in a white cop from a department with a history of racism in a southern state with a problem of racism giving a black woman who wasn't obsequiousness enough pointless and harassing orders and threatening to tase and arrest her for smoking when he didn't want her to...probably isn't going to agree with WJ's suggestion that he intended to pull her over before she failed to signal. Skepticism about unsupported inferences is not determination not to see something. You need to work on your argument if you ever want to convince people who aren't predisposed to buy what you're selling.
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Aug 5, 2015 15:21
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It was supported: the fact that you have no answer to the support I provided beyond "nuh-uh" is again, not my problem. ...and even AR who basically never agrees with me conceded that my appraisal was fair possible interpretation of the events, so I'm probably convincing and you're probably being deliberately obtuse, as shown by your refusal to engage with a single concrete point about the cop's behavior to Bland at the stop. VVVVV Fair, I'll strive to be clearer. Really the point of that post was to ask WJ if he had any actual statement from the cop about why he did the uturn. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 15:23
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VitalSigns posted:No that wasn't what I was saying. I was saying the people who were determined not to see racism even in a white cop from a department with a history of racism in a southern state with a problem of racism giving a black woman who wasn't obsequiousness enough pointless and harassing orders and threatening to tase and arrest her for smoking when he didn't want her to...probably aren't going to agree with WJ's suggestion that he intended to pull her over before she failed to signal. I apologise, its just when you said VitalSigns posted:Yeah but the racism deniers will just say we can never know why he pulled that uturn behind her, unless he has said he was going to pull her over just cuz? I took that to be what you meant, because its what you wrote. Perhaps if you originally wrote what you've now said, there would have been no misunderstanding.
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Aug 5, 2015 15:25
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The last (many) pages of this thread have been devoted to discussion of whether or not one can infer racism in individual acts that are part of a broad trend. Flipping it around, apparently Pennsylvania is planning to use statistical tendencies to guide sentencing (link). This makes me -- and the ACLU -- uncomfortable, but seems on the surface to be the same process applied to a different population. What is the difference between claiming that a particular cop is motivated by racism (because statistics show that this happens frequently among similar individuals), and claiming that a particular defendant is likely to commit crimes in the future (because statistics show that this happens frequently among similar individuals)?
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Aug 5, 2015 15:30
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TheImmigrant posted:Skepticism about unsupported inferences is not determination not to see something. You need to work on your argument if you ever want to convince people who aren't predisposed to buy what you're selling. It'll always be unsupported though, won't it? I mean what would do it for you? What would keep you from retreating into the deniability that just because the system is racist and policing is biased, doesn't mean that any single example of a white cop power-tripping a black woman is racist? At a certain point, it becomes more useful to stop trying to persuade such a stubborn denier of racism, and simply draw them out to the extreme of their argument, which is them looking at a woman hanged in her cell for not following an officer's arbitrary commands and saying "I don't see a problem here." That spectacle is convincing enough for a lot of people.
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Aug 5, 2015 15:31
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Grundulum posted:Flipping it around, apparently Pennsylvania is planning to use statistical tendencies to guide sentencing (link). This makes me -- and the ACLU -- uncomfortable, but seems on the surface to be the same process applied to a different population. I'm extremely uncomfortable with basing actual criminal sanctions on individuals because of statistical trends in a population that include "[assigning] points to offenders based on anything from demographic factors to family background to criminal history". Family background sounds like some blood guilt poo poo.
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Aug 5, 2015 15:36
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Grundulum posted:The last (many) pages of this thread have been devoted to discussion of whether or not one can infer racism in individual acts that are part of a broad trend. Rehabilitative potential has always been a relevant factor in sentencing. And states already do this. They just call them bail commissioner recommendations and presentencing investigations. They are actually quite complex. And often require the voluntary participation of the prisoner. Generally "came from lovely home with incarcerated dad and crack head mom" is considered a mitigating factor.
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Aug 5, 2015 15:41
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Solkanar512 posted:I think you need to explain to the rest of the thread why you are convinced that this level is appropriate and acceptable. As someone else hinted at, if we used your number in the commercial airlines world, that would mean one crash every day in the United States alone. Do you think that's a good idea? Hyperbole and apples to fence post comparisons don't make your argument sound. First off, it wouldn't mean one crash in the US every day. Cops aren't gunning down black people with out cause enough to equal crashing a plane a day in the US. I notice a lot of hand waiving of poo poo that actually matters. So lets do an experiment. Here is a news story that was posted today. Lets see your reaction. A couple highlights: quote:The 2013 incident was quietly settled out of court and ended with the officer keeping his job, according to legal documents and interviews with lawyers and officials involved in the case. quote:Middlebrooks tells Bias' brother-in-law, that if he were the suspect's relative, he would "f---ing kill that motherf------" and then arrange the crime scene to "make it look like he was trying to f---ing kill me." quote:At one point, the officer pulls Bias' brother-in-law — who is white — aside and tells him he doesn't trust Bias. Middlebrooks had arrested Bias on drug charges weeks earlier, and seemed to be frustrated that he had made bail. quote:Bias, 49, told NBC News that he took the money in hopes of moving away from Alexander City, where he claims he was unfairly targeted by police, in part because of his race.
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Aug 5, 2015 15:44
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ActusRhesus posted:Rehabilitative potential has always been a relevant factor in sentencing. And states already do this. They just call them bail commissioner recommendations and presentencing investigations. This seems different than what you're talking about. From the article quote:Sonja Starr, a University of Michigan law professor who has been a leading opponent of risk assessment, says it isn’t fair. “These instruments aren’t about getting judges to individually analyze life circumstances of a defendant and their particular risk,” she said. “It’s entirely based on statistical generalizations.”
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Aug 5, 2015 15:46
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:The white cop in a department with a long history of racial issues where the current elected sheriff was previously fired for racism and brutality, in a county that was trying to disenfranchise black voters barely a couple decades ago, didn't produce a notarized affidavit that he was being a jackass to her because of her race, so we wouldn't want to jump to any conclusions. Grundulum posted:The last (many) pages of this thread have been devoted to discussion of whether or not one can infer racism in individual acts that are part of a broad trend. White cops treat blacks unfairly compared to whites on a society-level, but we can't infer that any individual traffic stop was racist *solely based on the former claim.* The individual traffic stop may be racist, but the existence of the larger trend doesn't tell us anything about that one stop in particular. Likewise claims that because someone is young, black and male they should be treated for "pre-crime" because they're in a group that commits crime at higher rates, which is monstrous. This is what gets activists into trouble with cases such as Darren Wilson/Michael Brown and Ferguson, where the existence of biased policing was present in the population but was useless in determining whether Wilson's actions were justified or not. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 15:46
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blarzgh posted:What do people here think "the system" is? Oh hey, you never answered why you consider an investigation that only took place after riots and burning neighborhoods despite the underlying institutional problems existing for decades is evidence that everything is fine and working as intended. I mean, I would think that a properly functioning justice system wouldn't require neighborhoods to burn down before investigating decades of abuse, but perhaps that is just pie-in-the-sky and serious people know you've got to burn a city once in a while to keep the furnace of justice burning brightly.
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Aug 5, 2015 15:51
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SedanChair posted:It'll always be unsupported though, won't it? I mean what would do it for you? What would keep you from retreating into the deniability that just because the system is racist and policing is biased, doesn't mean that any single example of a white cop power-tripping a black woman is racist? First off, its unsupported because its unsupported. No racist remarks. No Klan hood... No declaration. You are calling a white male cop racist for pulling over a black woman. Where is your outcry over sexism? Because its just as valid. Here... Let me show you: quote:At a certain point, it becomes more useful to stop trying to persuade such a stubborn denier of Also, they are not arbitrary commands. Maybe he is allergic to cigarette smoke. Maybe he has asthma, maybe his parents smoked and beat him so cigarettes trigger his sad brains.. Maybe he just thinks she should be polite and put the loving cigarette out while discussing the ticket. And, as much as you want to bitch about it, the Supreme Court has already said a cop can order someone out of a car.
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Aug 5, 2015 15:56
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Omi-Polari posted:White cops treat blacks unfairly compared to whites on a society-level, but we can't infer that any individual traffic stop was racist *solely based on the former claim.* The individual traffic stop may be racist, but the existence of the larger trend doesn't tell us anything about that one stop. Yeah but the cop's actions do, and he was acting like your textbook bigot out to put a black woman in her place for not groveling enough. You are right that you can't just start out assuming every stop is racially motivated. But once the cop starts acting like a bigot would it really gets harder and harder to go "oh he's just doing his job like he would any old day". Can we agree that you have to draw the line at a certain point when observing his actions and say "okay racism probably has something to do with this" and we don't have to wait for him to write a signed affidavit affirming his loyalty to Hitler and hatred for the black race, witnessed and notarized by at least two Republicans and the ghost of George Wallace?
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Aug 5, 2015 15:59
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VitalSigns posted:This seems different than what you're talking about. From the article I can't imagine why a law professor opposed to risk assessments might spin this in the worst light possible It actually sounds pretty standard. What is rehabilitative potential if not the opposite of "likely to recidivate"
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Aug 5, 2015 16:00
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah but the cop's actions do, and he was acting like your textbook bigot out to put a black woman in her place for not groveling enough. How was he acting like a bigot? Besides being white?
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Aug 5, 2015 16:00
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