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Genocide Tendency posted:And, as much as you want to bitch about it, the Supreme Court has already said a cop can order someone out of a car. I don't know why you keep returning to this. There are plenty of perfectly legal ways I can gently caress up at my job, cause a bad situation, and get fired for it, but maybe that's because I am a professional and am held to standards of competence and workmanship, and not a cop.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:01
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VitalSigns posted:I don't know why you keep returning to this. There are plenty of perfectly legal ways I can gently caress up at my job, cause a bad situation, and get fired for it, but maybe that's because I am a professional and am held to standards of competence and workmanship, and not a cop. Why do you keep saying the cop was a bigot with no proof?
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Aug 5, 2015 16:02
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Genocide Tendency posted:Why do you keep saying the cop was a bigot with no proof? VitalSigns posted:But I don't infer racism from the fact that he pulled her over, but from his subsequent actions: getting angry when a black woman wasn't obsequious and deferent enough for him, baiting her with pointless questioning about her mood, and giving her arbitrary commands to follow to assert his dominance and put her in her place rather than ending the stop once he's written her ticket. Now that I've answered your question, perhaps you'd address mine that professionalism entails a higher standard of behavior than "just don't do anything unquestionably criminal"
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Aug 5, 2015 16:03
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Again. Where is the racism? Besides he was white and she was black. Sexism is just as valid, but you aren't crying about that.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:06
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VitalSigns posted:Now that I've answered your question, perhaps you'd address mine that professionalism entails a higher standard of behavior than "just don't do anything unquestionably criminal" To be fair, I've seen videos of police officers acting very similarly to white drivers too. A dick cop can sometimes be just a dick cop. If your argument is that video is 100% proof that the police officer is a bigot, well you're probably right that hes racist, but you cant prove it without doubt.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:09
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah but the cop's actions do, and he was acting like your textbook bigot out to put a black woman in her place for not groveling enough. Unless you have a history of all the cops interactions you can't tell a single drat thing from one stop. It's like trying to determine if a coin is biased from one flip. You will always see what you want to see if you do that. Really a huge problem in this thread is people don't have a loving clue how statistics work or how they can be applied. It's little different than the huge argument over whether or not the cops didn't shoot their friend because of the 'blue line' or because they knew him. Without having a history of their prior interactions there's literally no way to answer that question with any sort of certainty. Many here are using statistics the same way racist right wingers do when they use racial statistics to "prove" their points.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:11
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah but the cop's actions do, and he was acting like your textbook bigot out to put a black woman in her place for not groveling enough. My general rule in cases like Sandra Bland is to ask: Would the police have treated this person differently had they been white? (Maybe I'm biased but I can easily see the same situation playing out between a white trooper and a white driver. Very easily.) I don't know if the answer is to the affirmative in her case. All I could do is infer based on the characteristics of the population, right? And that's where we get into trouble because we'd be proven wrong as many times as we would right because you're relying on random chance.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:13
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Genocide Tendency posted:Sexism is just as valid, but you aren't crying about that. His behavior wasn't consistent with the way sexists exert power over women. But it is consistent with how white racist cops exercise their power over black people. Either way, that's not why he should be fired. He should be fired because his unprofessionalism and poor emotional control led him to escalate a routine traffic stop into threats and a beating, which a gross failure in his role as a protector of the public safety. Noting that his behavior is consistent with Texas' history of racist policing is just another example (not that we need more examples) that we won't end the problem of police brutality without addressing the racial bias in policing that even you must admit exists in aggregate regardless of whether this particular cop was actually racist or just coincidentally acting like one. serious gaylord posted:To be fair, I've seen videos of police officers acting very similarly to white drivers too. A dick cop can sometimes be just a dick cop. If your argument is that video is 100% proof that the police officer is a bigot, well you're probably right that hes racist, but you cant prove it without doubt. Correct. If my friend tells me her boss sexually harassed her I don't have 100% proof that it really happened either. But if I know harassment is a problem at that company I can go "holy poo poo here's just one more reason why there needs to be some reform in that organization", even if I don't think it should be enough on its own to convict him personally of a crime. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 16:13
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VitalSigns posted:Really the point of that post was to ask WJ if he had any actual statement from the cop about why he did the uturn. nope
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Aug 5, 2015 16:16
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VitalSigns posted:His behavior wasn't consistent with the way sexists exert power over women. But it is consistent with how white racist cops exercise their power over black people.  Is this real? Here: VitalSigns posted:But I don't infer Change racist/bigot to sexist and skip the race label and it sounds just like its.. I don't know... Sexism... VitalSigns posted:Either way, that's not why he should be fired. He should be fired because his unprofessionalism and poor emotional control led him to escalate a routine traffic stop into threats and a beating, which a gross failure in his role as a protector of the public safety. Really? Even if he wasn't trained properly? Which very well could be the case? Because firing him for a deficiency in training isn't just bullshit, it doesn't actually fix the problem. Maybe.. Just maybe there needs to be a more in depth look at whats going on and what led up to the incident. Rather than crying "RACISM" and breaking out the pitch forks and torches. quote:Noting that his behavior is consistent with Texas' history of racist policing is just another example (not that we need more examples) that we won't end the problem of police brutality without addressing the racial bias in policing that even you must admit exists in aggregate regardless of whether this particular cop was actually racist or just coincidentally acting like one. Uh.. No.. Just because there is systemic issues in a police department, it doesn't mean all the officers are part of the problem. quote:Correct. If my friend tells me her boss sexually harassed her I don't have 100% proof that it really happened either. But if I know harassment is a problem at that company I can go "holy poo poo here's just one more reason why there needs to be some reform in that organization", even if I don't think it should be enough on its own to convict him personally of a crime. Yet, you are declaring the cop racist because "the rest of his department is!!!!".
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Aug 5, 2015 16:25
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Omi-Polari posted:And that's where we get into trouble because we'd be proven wrong as many times as we would right because you're relying on random chance. I guess I don't see this as a problem, unless we're actually convicting people of the crime of racism and throwing them in jail. If you think someone is a racist and it turns out you're wrong, so what? People get bad first impressions of others all the time. You revise your opinion and move on. You brought up Wilson, and yes true the DOJ concluded that there wasn't enough evidence to charge him with a violation of Brown's civil rights, but then that report came out and holy poo poo no wonder there were riots: that department was a cesspool and the community had lost all faith in the police force after decades of abuse. Even if everything Wilson did was 100% correct, it touched off a wave of civil disorder because the citizens had no faith in their corrupt and violent government, if anything that's an even stronger case for reform than if the report had come back proving Wilson was one bad racist cop in an otherwise stellar department. Racist policing means that even good cops can't do their jobs properly and can't count on the support of the community.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:26
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VitalSigns posted:His behavior wasn't consistent with the way sexists exert power over women. But it is consistent with how white racist cops exercise their power over black people. Actually it is. Women who don't shut up and do as they are told are often met with hostility. So basically, the cop here could be: A. A racist. B. A misogynist C. An rear end in a top hat All of the above are reasonable inferences. All of the above are problems. Impossible to know from this one interaction which it is. Check his file for complaints and look for trends.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:32
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Genocide Tendency posted:Change racist/bigot to sexist and skip the race label and it sounds just like its.. I don't know... Sexism... But it doesn't. Genocide Tendency posted:Really? Even if he wasn't trained properly? Which very well could be the case? Because firing him for a deficiency in training isn't just bullshit, it doesn't actually fix the problem. Maybe.. Just maybe there needs to be a more in depth look at whats going on and what led up to the incident. Rather than crying "RACISM" and breaking out the pitch forks and torches. His behavior was inexcusable even with lovely training, seriously there's no excuse for picking a fight with someone on the job. We should definitely look into the training and recruitment of the highway patrol yes you're right about that, but sorry not even in my IHOP server days could you pick a fight with the member of the public and have people go "aw maybe he just wasn't trained not to get in fights". But idk maybe my A-frame restaurant off I-35 in Waco had higher standards of professionalism than the Texas Highway Patrol. Genocide Tendency posted:Uh.. No.. Just because there is systemic issues in a police department, it doesn't mean all the officers are part of the problem. But ones who act just like an officer who is part of the problem would act, are probably part of the problem. Genocide Tendency posted:Yet, you are declaring the cop racist because "the rest of his department is!!!!". No, because of his actions. Read.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:33
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ActusRhesus posted:Actually it is. Women who don't shut up and do as they are told are often met with hostility. I don't know, I feel like if there were a trend of Texas cops beating white women for being uppity I would have heard about it living just off I-35, got anything to back up this claim?
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Aug 5, 2015 16:34
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VitalSigns posted:I don't know, I feel like if there were a trend of Texas cops beating white women for being uppity I would have heard about it living just off I-35, got anything to back up this claim? Well, we can start with departments that turn a blind eye to domestic violence. Does that count? Then type the following into google "Dallas police officer sexual assault on duty" Geez. Took 10 seconds. Edit: also black women can't be targets of misogyny too? Why does abuse have to be white women?
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Aug 5, 2015 16:37
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VitalSigns posted:I guess I don't see this as a problem, unless we're actually convicting people of the crime of racism and throwing them in jail. If you think someone is a racist and it turns out you're wrong, so what? People get bad first impressions of others all the time. You revise your opinion and move on. On the first point, yeah I don't think we're doomed as a society or anything because police officers are being unfairly labeled as racists. (They'll be fine.) But this is a debate forum and we're formulating arguments, and I just noticed an ecological fallacy and pointed it out. VitalSigns posted:I don't know, I feel like if there were a trend of Texas cops beating white women for being uppity I would have heard about it living just off I-35, got anything to back up this claim? Which is all I'm saying. Ask yourself: Would this *not* have happened had the persons been different? With Sandra Bland it's very difficult to say. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 16:39
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ActusRhesus posted:Actually it is. Women who don't shut up and do as they are told are often met with hostility. C in texas leads to D. All of the above
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Aug 5, 2015 16:40
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Also: Canterbury police chief sexual assault. It's not hard.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:40
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He didn't sexually assault her though. If he had, I'd be more inclined to believe misogyny was more likely. And black women are certainly targets of misogyny since they are women, but if the only trend is southern cops brutalizing black men and women; rather than black or white women, then racism is more likely what's going on here, wouldn't you agree?
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Aug 5, 2015 16:41
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VitalSigns posted:I don't know, I feel like if there were a trend of Texas cops beating white women for being uppity I would have heard about it living just off I-35, got anything to back up this claim? Again you're using 'feel' in place of actual evidence then demanding real evidence to counteract your claim. It took AR all of 5 seconds to prove that your statement is wrong. C'mon man, I'm on your side of this fight but you aren't doing yourself any favours. You're making the cardinal sin of trying to use statistics to fit your argument instead of fitting your argument to the statistics.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:42
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VitalSigns posted:He didn't sexually assault her though. If he had, I'd be more inclined to believe misogyny was more likely. The combination of sexism and racism means that white women and black women can be treated differently from white men and black men.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:44
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Hey-OH!!! Another piece-of-poo poo cop still working the beat: LINK quote:“And before the police got here, I’d loving put marks all over my poo poo and make it look like he was trying to loving kill me. I god drat guarantee you,” Middlebrooks said. “What would it look like? Self loving defence. gently caress that piece of poo poo. I’m a lot different from a lot of these other folks. I’ll loving tell you what’s on my loving mind.”
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Aug 5, 2015 16:46
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Omi-Polari posted:Try kicking one as a man of any color, white or black. You will be arrested and you might get a jolt. Why does this keep coming up? There is no reason to assume Bland kicked him except that the (grossly unprofessional) cop said so.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:48
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AR didn't prove anything. She mentioned there were some sexual assaults...but this woman wasn't sexually assaulted. We just had another issue in Texas a few months ago with cops in Dallas beating black teenagers for swimming in a neighborhood pool. If you want to make a case that the cop loves black people but wailed on Bland because he hates women, make it, rather than just concern trolling anything you can find to distract from what was pretty obviously racism. If you want to say that her being a woman probably aggravated it, that's reasonable, but AR do you honestly believe that her skin had nothing to do with what happened to her?
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Aug 5, 2015 16:50
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VitalSigns posted:But it doesn't. Really? Lets ask a woman... ActusRhesus posted:Actually it is. Women who don't shut up and do as they are told are often met with hostility. quote:His behavior was inexcusable even with lovely training, seriously there's no excuse for picking a fight with someone on the job. We should definitely look into the training and recruitment of the highway patrol yes you're right about that, but sorry not even in my IHOP server days could you pick a fight with the member of the public and have people go "aw maybe he just wasn't trained not to get in fights". But idk maybe my A-frame restaurant off I-35 in Waco had higher standards of professionalism than the Texas Highway Patrol. IHOP servers aren't charged with enforcing laws. Telling someone its their job to make sure that everyone follows the law and then not training them how to do it properly leads to the exact problems that we have here. An officer who overreacts when someone doesn't follow their orders. Why you can't understand this is beyond me. Its a pretty simple math problem. quote:But ones who act just like an officer who is part of the problem would act, are probably part of the problem. Hmm.. Systemic problems? There may be an issue here. Like regulations, or training, or application process, or watch dog groups not doing their jobs/concerns not being addressed. Someone should probably find out what the parent problem is. With a proper investigation. You know... One that doesn't stop at someone mad posting on the internet about "RACISM". quote:No, because of his actions. Read. I have read what you keep pointing out. And again. You have offered no reason to assume racism over any other accusation. Like being sexist, or an rear end in a top hat cop. But drat you sure are screaming about "RACISM".
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Aug 5, 2015 16:50
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Seems it ain't all bad news out of Alabama: LINK quote:A US grand jury has indicted an Alabama police officer – captured on video throwing an Indian man to the ground – on a civil rights charge stemming from the use of unreasonable force, federal prosecutors said on Friday.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:51
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VitalSigns posted:I guess I don't see this as a problem, unless we're actually convicting people of the crime of racism and throwing them in jail. If you think someone is a racist and it turns out you're wrong, so what? People get bad first impressions of others all the time. You revise your opinion and move on. This is loving hilarious after all the accusations of "apologists" being disingenuous, this is what being truly disingenuous means. You're openly saying you don't actually care about the truth you're just pushing a narrative on any situation you can make it fit in order to further your agenda.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:54
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Genocide Tendency posted:IHOP servers aren't charged with enforcing laws. His butthurt isn't the law. Someone who thinks it's the law that black women should be obsequious and it's worth starting a fight over shouldn't be a cop no matter how lovely the training. Why you can't understand this is beyond me. Its a pretty simple math problem. Genocide Tendency posted:Hmm.. Systemic problems? There may be an issue here. Like regulations, or training, or application process, or watch dog groups not doing their jobs/concerns not being addressed. I have posted about all of those things. If you would rather talk about those things than your bizarre crusade against admitting that any racism can exist in a racist system, awesome. How would you reform the racial discrimination in policing.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:55
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VitalSigns posted:He didn't sexually assault her though. If he had, I'd be more inclined to believe misogyny was more likely. You said that there were not problems with police attacking women. Therefore it must be racism. I provided you examples in which women were targets of police violence. So anything shy of full on rape...what? Doesn't count? Please. Tell me more about how to feel about misogyny. You realize you, a male, (presumably...I think you've identified as such) telling me something isn't possibly sexist is the same level of privilege that leads people to tell minorities to shut up about racism, right? It's the same mindset that (correctly) denounced cartoons making Obama look like a Sambo, but then thought cartoons of Sarah Palin getting punched in the face, or overly sexualized were hilarious. ActusRhesus fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 16:55
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Jarmak posted:This is loving hilarious after all the accusations of "apologists" being disingenuous, this was what being truly disingenuous means. You're openly saying you don't actually care about the truth you're just pushing a narrative on any situation you can make it fit in order to further your agenda. Nope, I do care about the truth. His actions on the video appear that racism is likely a factor in his treatment of Bland, and that he's part of the problem of racist policing in Texas because it's how a racist would act. Like all things, my opinion is open to be changed if additional evidence comes to light, such as AR's suggestion that maybe there is a string of complaints of similar behavior from white victims in which case I would revise my opinion like I do any time I have new information. Maybe if you were more interested in having a conversation than scoring points on hand-wringing liberals, you'd better appreciate my point and we could have a real talk like I know you're capable of doing.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:59
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serious gaylord posted:C'mon man, I'm on your side of this fight but you aren't doing yourself any favours. You're making the cardinal sin of trying to use statistics to fit your argument instead of fitting your argument to the statistics. That's just it. I'm someone convinced that law-enforcement culture in the US is seriously screwed up, and that police racism is a huge issue. Sometimes people point out the fallacies in an argument because they don't want to see their case trivialized. I'm happy if racists make lovely arguments, because a bad argument undermines a position.
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Aug 5, 2015 17:00
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ActusRhesus posted:You said that there were not problems with police attacking women. Therefore it must be racism. I provided you examples in which women were targets of police violence. You've already said my position is fair, so I don't understand this new hostile tone. I certainly don't and never would deny the existence of sexism, and if you are saying that black women have the additional burden of sexism on top of racism and Sandra Bland probably suffered from that too, then I agree. But it sounds like now you are trying to minimize any racial angle by positing that sexism could explain 100% of his behavior, and I'm sorry I don't think that's likely and I don't know why you, as a person who is familiar with being a target of bigotry and of not being believed, would attempt to minimize other types of bigotry. If that's not what you're doing, and you do still agree that racism is probably the issue but you're reminding me that sexism likely played a role too then I apologize, but it seemed like you were trying to back up Genocide Tendency, and he is definitely dismissing any suggestion of racism's involvement in the incident. E: Just to be clear, I am not saying the cop isn't possibly sexist. I was saying that given the history of racist policing in Texas and the ongoing problems, and his desire to exert social power over Bland that GT's suggestion that her skin color had nothing to do with the stop and it was all misogyny and no racism isn't very convincing. If it turned out he had a history of complaints from women about similar behavior or something like that, my opinion would change. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 17:04
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C2C - 2.0 posted:Hey-OH!!! Another piece-of-poo poo cop still working the beat: Hey.. I brought this up earlier.. Wait a second.. Its from 2013? And it was settled out of court? My favorite part is where Bias claims the drug charges were added after he sued. You know, the charges he was out on bail on when the incident happened.... VitalSigns posted:His butthurt isn't the law. Someone who thinks it's the law that black women should be obsequious and it's worth starting a fight over shouldn't be a cop no matter how lovely the training. You have no understanding of how training affects someone's ability to do their job. You also have no understanding of what it takes training and instructing wise to properly enforce laws. You also have no understanding of how he was trained. It matters. If he was trained wrong, if his regulations are bad, if he didn't have the proper oversight, this is exactly the kind of poo poo that happens. Why did she get lovely with the cop? Why didn't she get out when he told her to? quote:I have posted about all of those things. If you would rather talk about those things than your bizarre crusade against admitting that any racism can exist in a racist system, awesome. How would you reform the racial discrimination in policing. You either can't read, or have jumped through enough mental hoops that you can not follow real simple things. I am pointing out that because its a white male cop and black woman, it doesn't make it instantly racist. There are plenty of other options that could have ended in the same result. Sexism, being an rear end in a top hat, bad training... You are getting pissy because someone posting in this thread doesn't default to racism. Since thats your cause to champion. And I have explained how it needs to be addressed. In fact I copied a decently sized care post and reposted it. In this very thread... I'll let you find it. It was probably ignored by you both times because its not meant to address racism specifically, but rather reform law enforcement completely to address and standardize law enforcement nationwide to be more responsible as a collective. Its going to be hard for you to understand because its designed to fix something more than racism.
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Aug 5, 2015 17:12
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TheImmigrant posted:That's just it. I'm someone convinced that law-enforcement culture in the US is seriously screwed up, and that police racism is a huge issue. Sometimes people point out the fallacies in an argument because they don't want to see their case trivialized. I'm happy if racists make lovely arguments, because a bad argument undermines a position. You guys are loving stupid. You're afraid that calling out a racist is going to trivialize the case against racism? Show me one video in this thread that exemplifies racism that doesn't have the cop yelling "friend of the family" or explicitly expressing hatred for other races. It's called denial, you see it every loving day but you have to justify it to yourself, you can't see racism because you don't want to.
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Aug 5, 2015 17:18
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Genocide Tendency posted:Why did she get lovely with the cop? Why didn't she get out when he told her to? Why does this matter, if according to you he was poorly trained. It certainly isn't her fault that the department has poo poo standards. Blaming her for his behavior makes no sense.
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Aug 5, 2015 17:18
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When are you all going to understand that he's beep boop trolling and demanding an enumerated list of checkbox requirements for a determination of racism, and asking everyone to prove a negative (prove the cop wasn't just an equal-opportunity abuser of power, prove the cop doesn't pull over every car he sees change lanes without signaling, etc)?
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Aug 5, 2015 17:20
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VitalSigns posted:Nope, I do care about the truth. His actions on the video appear that racism is likely a factor in his treatment of Bland, and that he's part of the problem of racist policing in Texas because it's how a racist would act. Like all things, my opinion is open to be changed if additional evidence comes to light, such as AR's suggestion that maybe there is a string of complaints of similar behavior from white victims in which case I would revise my opinion like I do any time I have new information. And I am saying that his actions on the video appear that sexism and bad training is likely a factor. Which you responded to with : VitalSigns posted:His behavior wasn't consistent with the way sexists exert power over women. But it is consistent with how white racist cops exercise their power over black people. Which is saying "its not sexist because I don't think so but its RACIST because reasons.". quote:Maybe if you were more interested in having a conversation than scoring points on hand-wringing liberals, you'd better appreciate my point and we could have a real talk like I know you're capable of doing. LOL.. What the gently caress is this?
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Aug 5, 2015 17:21
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VitalSigns posted:Why does this matter, if according to you he was poorly trained. It certainly isn't her fault that the department has poo poo standards. Blaming her for his behavior makes no sense. Her thuggish behavior is what caused the problem, she should've submitted like a good animal.
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Aug 5, 2015 17:21
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ElCondemn posted:You guys are loving stupid. You're afraid that calling out a racist is going to trivialize the case against racism? Show me one video in this thread that exemplifies racism that doesn't have the cop yelling "friend of the family" or explicitly expressing hatred for other races. It's called denial, you see it every loving day but you have to justify it to yourself, you can't see racism because you don't want to. This, mere minutes after I posted: quote:I'm someone convinced that [ ... ] police racism is a huge issue. You aren't worth taking seriously.
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Aug 5, 2015 17:22
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FAUXTON posted:When are you all going to understand that he's beep boop trolling and demanding an enumerated list of checkbox requirements for a determination of racism, and asking everyone to prove a negative (prove the cop wasn't just an equal-opportunity abuser of power, prove the cop doesn't pull over every car he sees change lanes without signaling, etc)? All the lawyers and cops in this thread just happen to agree with him, it's weird that a troll has so much support, no?
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Aug 5, 2015 17:22
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